Crazy idea?

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/6/19 10:26 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger?

Since you're going to have a second battery, why not just have a 12v
battery? A 6v to 12v converter to charge the 12v battery and you're
done. While you're at it, put in a cigar lighter across the 12v and
you'll have a place to plug in your phone charger or a radio. ;-)


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 06 May 2019 20:26:57 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric

Clutching at straws?

Like this?
<https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/1939/ford/9n/19551675>

What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

Some random thoughts, suggestions, and sanity checks:

1. The auger is going to generate quite a bit of torque. If the
auger gets hung up on a rock, something in the drive chain is going to
absorb the energy. Usually, its a shear pin or shear bolt. If you
put a disc, band, or radial pin clutch in between the drive and auger,
it will be the disc or band that takes up the load and convert the
drive power to smoke or a pin that gets sheared.

2. I'm not sure what manner of PTO you have but if it's reversible,
be sure your clutch will work equally well in reverse so you can back
out the auger after you get it hung up on a rock. Disc clutches will
usually work in reverse. Radial pin clutches, will not. Band
clutches might work, depending on design.

3. Electrically, you want the system to run either on 6 or 12VDC, not
both. Finding a 6V disc clutch might be difficult but replacing the
generator, battery, starter, gauges, etc on the tractor probably more
difficult. As a compromise, I suggest hanging a small battery and
small alternator somewhere on the tractor just to run the 12v clutch.
4. If your auger is driven by a drive shaft with two universal joints,
then maybe forget the electric clutch and use a radial pin clutch
instead of a disc clutch. Note that some augers come with clutches:
<https://agcrazy.com/wn-04451000-auger-slip-clutch-radial-pin>
If you have machining capabilities, you could probably make one of
these.

4. You wouldn't have this problem if the PTO was hydraulically coupled
to the post hole digger. If you're proficient at putting together
hydraulic system, it might be easier and better than installing a
mechanical clutch. A hydraulic pump and motor, a disconnect valve,
combined with a reversing control valve, would work, but is rather
complex and potentially expensive. However, it has the advantage of
only needing a single shear pin, no machining, and nothing on the
tractor, PTO, or auger needs modification. The hydraulics on the PTO
could also be used to power other impliments and machines.

More:

"Clutch for a Post Hole Digger"
<https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=981868>




--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Tuesday, 7 May 2019 04:25:24 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric

The clutch's coil is not rewindable I presume, if it is that would be easier to live with.


NT

 

On Mon, 06 May 2019 22:20:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 20:26:57 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric

Greetings Jeff,

Clutching at straws?

Like this?
https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/1939/ford/9n/19551675

Yeah, that's the tractor.

What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.

Some random thoughts, suggestions, and sanity checks:

1. The auger is going to generate quite a bit of torque. If the
auger gets hung up on a rock, something in the drive chain is going to
absorb the energy. Usually, its a shear pin or shear bolt. If you
put a disc, band, or radial pin clutch in between the drive and auger,
it will be the disc or band that takes up the load and convert the
drive power to smoke or a pin that gets sheared.

I have the post hole digger. They all come with shear pins which are
really grade 2 bolts. This is industry standard. Lots of folks ruin
their digger gearboxes when they use grade 8 bolts instead of grade 2.

2. I'm not sure what manner of PTO you have but if it's reversible,
be sure your clutch will work equally well in reverse so you can back
out the auger after you get it hung up on a rock. Disc clutches will
usually work in reverse. Radial pin clutches, will not. Band
clutches might work, depending on design.

No reverse on the PTO. You have to take the bolts out and unscrew the
augur using a big wrench. That's how it was done in 1939 on
inexpensive tractors.

3. Electrically, you want the system to run either on 6 or 12VDC, not
both. Finding a 6V disc clutch might be difficult but replacing the
generator, battery, starter, gauges, etc on the tractor probably more
difficult. As a compromise, I suggest hanging a small battery and
small alternator somewhere on the tractor just to run the 12v clutch.
4. If your auger is driven by a drive shaft with two universal joints,
then maybe forget the electric clutch and use a radial pin clutch
instead of a disc clutch. Note that some augers come with clutches:
https://agcrazy.com/wn-04451000-auger-slip-clutch-radial-pin
If you have machining capabilities, you could probably make one of
these.

I wanted to somehow connect the generator in series with the battery
but I like your extra alternator idea. Then there is a totally
separate circuit. I like that idea.

4. You wouldn't have this problem if the PTO was hydraulically coupled
to the post hole digger. If you're proficient at putting together
hydraulic system, it might be easier and better than installing a
mechanical clutch. A hydraulic pump and motor, a disconnect valve,
combined with a reversing control valve, would work, but is rather
complex and potentially expensive. However, it has the advantage of
only needing a single shear pin, no machining, and nothing on the
tractor, PTO, or auger needs modification. The hydraulics on the PTO
could also be used to power other impliments and machines.

I think I like the hydraulic idea the most. With a hydraulic pump and
motor the augur could be reversed out if it gets stuck. And there
would be no spinning driveshaft hanging out in the wind. I need to
look at some surplus hydraulics.

More:

"Clutch for a Post Hole Digger"
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=981868

Thanks for the great ideas Jeff.
Cheers,
Eric

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <k9a3depovpl6q2ett0nd2pjppvgj8bjtka@4ax.com>,
etpm@whidbey.com says...

What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.

You may want to look into something like a boost converter similar to
this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/400W-15A-DC-Step-up-Boost-Converter-Constant-
Current-Power-LED-Driver-US/253926142971?
hash=item3b1f2d73fb:m:mMbCize9KE9nEnuTuZOBiIw

YOu input anywhere from 5 to 12 volts and get out 12 to 60 volts. You
will have to look for one that will take 6 volts as I thinkthis one just
starts at 8.5 volts.

I have used some similar to this but only at 1 amp output.

The are almost like a DC transformer. You put in say 6 volts at about
10 and you get out 12 volts at 5 amps, not counting the efficency of the
device.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 07 May 2019 09:16:20 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 22:20:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.

Got any maximum torque specs on this disc clutch? My guess(tm) is
that delivered torque to the auger is MUCH higher than what the disc
clutch can pass before it starts to slip and smoke.

What's the diameter of the auger?

The engine is rated at 20Hp.
The PTO spins at 540 rpm.
<https://www.machinerypete.com/specs/ford/9n?referring_page=ldp>
<http://www.deerparkagri.com/pto-torque-calculator.html>
<https://www.munciepower.com/software/formulas>
That should produce 194 ft-lbs of torque.

So, will your mower disc handle 194 ft-lbs (plus a safety margin)?
<https://living.thebump.com/torque-lawnmower-14646.html>
... the gross torque on a walk-behind lawnmower is
generally between 4.50 and 8.75 ft-lbs.
... a riding lawnmower generally has 10.5 to 26.0 gross
horsepower.
Methinks I'm beginning to smell clutch smoke. Looks like the clutch
might be undersized by a factor of 10x or more.

The auger is fairly well matched to the tractor. I blundered across
this spec sheet for a walk behind post hole digger:
<https://www.aurorarents.com/equipment.asp?action=category&category=45&key=PHDWBH>
It wants 275 ft-lbs of torque at 140 rpm. If I slow the PTO down to
140 rpm, the delivered torque would be:
140 / 540 * 194 = 50 ft-lbs
which is still 2x - 5x times what the riding mower clutch can handle.

I have the post hole digger. They all come with shear pins which are
really grade 2 bolts. This is industry standard. Lots of folks ruin
their digger gearboxes when they use grade 8 bolts instead of grade 2.

Yep. The shear strength of the bolt also needs to be calculated. What
size bolt are you using?

I wanted to somehow connect the generator in series with the battery
but I like your extra alternator idea. Then there is a totally
separate circuit. I like that idea.

You didn't supply a number for how much current is required to lock
the clutch at 12V. My guess(tm) is that it's not much. If so, then
you don't need the battery and charging circuit. You could actuate
the clutch solenoid solely with the battery.

Does the clutch solenoid need power to activate, or remove power to
activate? (Normally disengaged, or normally engaged?) My guess(tm)
is probably the former for safety reasons. If the engine slows down,
the solenoid might drop out, but that's acceptable because the machine
is not expected to be digging holes at idle or slower.

4. You wouldn't have this problem if the PTO was hydraulically coupled
to the post hole digger. If you're proficient at putting together
hydraulic system, it might be easier and better than installing a
mechanical clutch. A hydraulic pump and motor, a disconnect valve,
combined with a reversing control valve, would work, but is rather
complex and potentially expensive. However, it has the advantage of
only needing a single shear pin, no machining, and nothing on the
tractor, PTO, or auger needs modification. The hydraulics on the PTO
could also be used to power other impliments and machines.

I think I like the hydraulic idea the most. With a hydraulic pump and
motor the augur could be reversed out if it gets stuck. And there
would be no spinning driveshaft hanging out in the wind. I need to
look at some surplus hydraulics.

I also like the hydraulics idea. It's far more complicated, but also
far more useful and versatile.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 11:25:24 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric

Have you looked into modifying the hydraulics?

 

On Tue, 07 May 2019 22:33:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 07 May 2019 09:16:20 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 22:20:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:
What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.

Got any maximum torque specs on this disc clutch? My guess(tm) is
that delivered torque to the auger is MUCH higher than what the disc
clutch can pass before it starts to slip and smoke.

What's the diameter of the auger?

The engine is rated at 20Hp.
The PTO spins at 540 rpm.
https://www.machinerypete.com/specs/ford/9n?referring_page=ldp
http://www.deerparkagri.com/pto-torque-calculator.html
https://www.munciepower.com/software/formulas
That should produce 194 ft-lbs of torque.

So, will your mower disc handle 194 ft-lbs (plus a safety margin)?
https://living.thebump.com/torque-lawnmower-14646.html
... the gross torque on a walk-behind lawnmower is
generally between 4.50 and 8.75 ft-lbs.
... a riding lawnmower generally has 10.5 to 26.0 gross
horsepower.
Methinks I'm beginning to smell clutch smoke. Looks like the clutch
might be undersized by a factor of 10x or more.

The auger is fairly well matched to the tractor. I blundered across
this spec sheet for a walk behind post hole digger:
https://www.aurorarents.com/equipment.asp?action=category&category=45&key=PHDWBH
It wants 275 ft-lbs of torque at 140 rpm. If I slow the PTO down to
140 rpm, the delivered torque would be:
140 / 540 * 194 = 50 ft-lbs
which is still 2x - 5x times what the riding mower clutch can handle.
I have the post hole digger. They all come with shear pins which are
really grade 2 bolts. This is industry standard. Lots of folks ruin
their digger gearboxes when they use grade 8 bolts instead of grade 2.

Yep. The shear strength of the bolt also needs to be calculated. What
size bolt are you using?

I wanted to somehow connect the generator in series with the battery
but I like your extra alternator idea. Then there is a totally
separate circuit. I like that idea.

You didn't supply a number for how much current is required to lock
the clutch at 12V. My guess(tm) is that it's not much. If so, then
you don't need the battery and charging circuit. You could actuate
the clutch solenoid solely with the battery.

Does the clutch solenoid need power to activate, or remove power to
activate? (Normally disengaged, or normally engaged?) My guess(tm)
is probably the former for safety reasons. If the engine slows down,
the solenoid might drop out, but that's acceptable because the machine
is not expected to be digging holes at idle or slower.

4. You wouldn't have this problem if the PTO was hydraulically coupled
to the post hole digger. If you're proficient at putting together
hydraulic system, it might be easier and better than installing a
mechanical clutch. A hydraulic pump and motor, a disconnect valve,
combined with a reversing control valve, would work, but is rather
complex and potentially expensive. However, it has the advantage of
only needing a single shear pin, no machining, and nothing on the
tractor, PTO, or auger needs modification. The hydraulics on the PTO
could also be used to power other impliments and machines.

I think I like the hydraulic idea the most. With a hydraulic pump and
motor the augur could be reversed out if it gets stuck. And there
would be no spinning driveshaft hanging out in the wind. I need to
look at some surplus hydraulics.

I also like the hydraulics idea. It's far more complicated, but also
far more useful and versatile.

I, after being chastised by you more than once, made sure to
mention that the clutch draws about 5 amps in my original post. I
appreciated the chastisement because it helps me to write better
posts.
The clutch is designed to handle about 16 HP, which is what my
tractor PTO was able to deliver when new. But you are correct about
the clutch probably slipping because it is designed to be run at about
2800 RPM. Especially with the big augur, which is 11 inches in
diameter. I'm pretty sure the 6 inch one would be OK though because it
is now being powered by a 3 HP motor.
I am gonna look at all the surplus hydraulic I know of to see how
much it would cost for the pump and motor combo. It really wouldn't be
very complicated and I do understand hydraulic systems.
Eric

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

I am not suggesting your idea(s) is (are) crazy.
Nor am I suggesting that the suggestions here are crazy, either.

But. William of Occam suggested that we not multiply entities needlessly. Yes, you have a 1930s-40s tractor that uses a system that is radically unsafe by modern standards. But, it works as found, as-is.

My summerhouse neighbor has a tractor of similar vintage with a similar system in place. He has rigged a small tripod-type device that attaches and swings up to hold the auger in the raised position without need to run the hydraulics. That device fits so closely and looks so much like it was 'meant to be' that it might be factory-original. I will ask him the next time I see him.

Would something like that even fit/serve/be possible without such gyrations as you are contemplating for a clutch, auxiliary power and much more?

There is another very common solution called "limiter chains" that are entirely adjustable, and would allow you to fix the travel-height of the auger by their length.

Lastly, as these are expensive, there is a PTO Slip-clutch (to be distinguished from an overrun clutch) that will also decouple the PTO from the device attached.

The chains and the clutch are off-the-shelf devices still made for that tractor to this day. The first device I cannot find - it may be home-made.

Jeff A: a 6 V aux.socket will charge a phone just as easily as a 12V device, what with smart chargers these day. Just an FYI.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wed, 8 May 2019 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not suggesting your idea(s) is (are) crazy.
Nor am I suggesting that the suggestions here are crazy, either.

But. William of Occam suggested that we not multiply entities needlessly. Yes, you have a 1930s-40s tractor that uses a system that is radically unsafe by modern standards. But, it works as found, as-is.

My summerhouse neighbor has a tractor of similar vintage with a similar system in place. He has rigged a small tripod-type device that attaches and swings up to hold the auger in the raised position without need to run the hydraulics. That device fits so closely and looks so much like it was 'meant to be' that it might be factory-original. I will ask him the next time I see him.

Would something like that even fit/serve/be possible without such gyrations as you are contemplating for a clutch, auxiliary power and much more?

There is another very common solution called "limiter chains" that are entirely adjustable, and would allow you to fix the travel-height of the auger by their length.

Lastly, as these are expensive, there is a PTO Slip-clutch (to be distinguished from an overrun clutch) that will also decouple the PTO from the device attached.

The chains and the clutch are off-the-shelf devices still made for that tractor to this day. The first device I cannot find - it may be home-made.

Jeff A: a 6 V aux.socket will charge a phone just as easily as a 12V device, what with smart chargers these day. Just an FYI.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Can your neighbor's device be used while sitting on the tractor? I
need to be on the tractor when operating the post hole digger. Because
the auger must be rotating when it is raised and to hold it in the
raised position. And I stay away from the rotating auger. If your
neighbor's device can be worked from the seat then if you could
please take some pictures and email them to me I would be very
grateful. Pictures with a yard stick or tape measure included would be
a big help for scaling.
I still like Jeff's hydraulics idea. It gets rid of the spinning
driveshaft and allows reversing out of the hole. More than once I have
hit roots or big rocks that required removing the shear bolts and
unscrewing the auger from the ground with a pipe wrench.
I have looked for and not found a clutch that is made for
disconnecting the PTO rotation from the device being powered. You got
a link? There are slip clutches but they won't work and I already have
an over running coupler installed but they are just to keep the driven
implement from back driving the tractor.
Eric

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

We will not be in the area for a bit - but he is very friendly and I would be glad to get pictures if he is available.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

In the meantime:

https://xtremeope.com/?mrkgcl=1182&mrkgadid=3258277977&adpos=1o1&creative=228321906906&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjw_MnmBRAoEiwAPRRWW67TDdJyS3pzTEkz9hFZU02RHKmixWAY0aJ2yVuK-0VF7zRMYaRErRoCBWAQAvD_BwE

Once upon a time made electric PTO clutches. All I see now are mower-clutches vs. in-line clutches. But they may still be available.

More later, I hope.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

Thanks. I'm gonna continue using the digger while I work on a
hydraulic solution. But the frame may be so much cheaper I'll be
persuaded to go that way.
Eric
On Wed, 8 May 2019 12:30:31 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

We will not be in the area for a bit - but he is very friendly and I would be glad to get pictures if he is available.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 08 May 2019 10:06:17 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Tue, 07 May 2019 22:33:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

You didn't supply a number for how much current is required to lock
the clutch at 12V. My guess(tm) is that it's not much. If so, then
you don't need the battery and charging circuit. You could actuate
the clutch solenoid solely with the battery.

Oops. I screwed up the above paragraph. As you noted, you did
mention that the 12v clutch drew about 5A. That's not huge, and I
think it might work. It will need some testing to see what the clutch
will do at voltages below about 10V. I also screwed up the last word.
Instead of actuating the clutch solenoid with the battery, it should
be actuated with the alternator, generator, or PM motor.

I, after being chastised by you more than once, made sure to
mention that the clutch draws about 5 amps in my original post. I
appreciated the chastisement because it helps me to write better
posts.

Thanks. I just hate it when I make a mistake and need to be reminded
that I'm not perfect.

The clutch is designed to handle about 16 HP, which is what my
tractor PTO was able to deliver when new. But you are correct about
the clutch probably slipping because it is designed to be run at about
2800 RPM. Especially with the big augur, which is 11 inches in
diameter. I'm pretty sure the 6 inch one would be OK though because it
is now being powered by a 3 HP motor.

I don't know. Big maybe, but it is worth trying the 6 inch clutch.
However, I still like the hydraulic solution better because of the
versatility.

I am gonna look at all the surplus hydraulic I know of to see how
much it would cost for the pump and motor combo. It really wouldn't be
very complicated and I do understand hydraulic systems.

My experience with hydraulics is limited to helping build Rose Floats
for Cal Poly Pomona in the late 1960's:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/slides/RoseFloat01.html>
to rebuilding and repairing 3 hydraulic wood splitters over the last
40(?) years. In other words, I'm not an expert on hydraulics.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 12:14:22 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 22:20:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Mon, 06 May 2019 20:26:57 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I posted this in the basics newsgroup too but repairs could be in my
future.
Mebbe I shud jest leave things be... But here goes my crazy idea. I
have a Ford 9N tractor. The hydraulics that raise the arms of the 3
point hitch system are powered by the same system that spins the PTO.
This means that when the post hole digger is kept raised it also must
be spinning. This is dangerous but that's the way the 1939 tractor was
made.
The tractor is a 6 volt system. I have a 12 volt clutch that I am
thinking about interposing between the PTO and the post hole digger.
The clutch draws about 5 amps and the generator can put out 11 amps.
So what if I arrange, with some sort of switching, to have the
generator connected in series with the 6 volt battery to power the
clutch whenever I am using the post hole digger? Crazy idea? I could
change the tractor to 12 volts but that would require a new
alternator, battery, and coil. As well as the kit to make an
alternator fit the tractor.
Since the battery and generator are new I can't justify to myself
that replacing them needed to be done anyway so why not convert to 12
volts.
Since I have a machine shop the mechanical part can be done
properly. But just because I can engineer and build the mechanical
part doesn't qualify me to judge the electrical part of my scheme.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric



Greetings Jeff,

Clutching at straws?

Like this?
https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/1939/ford/9n/19551675

Yeah, that's the tractor.

What type of 12v clutch to you have? Disc, band, planetary, radial
pin, ratchet, etc?

A disc type from a riding mower.


Some random thoughts, suggestions, and sanity checks:

1. The auger is going to generate quite a bit of torque. If the
auger gets hung up on a rock, something in the drive chain is going to
absorb the energy. Usually, its a shear pin or shear bolt. If you
put a disc, band, or radial pin clutch in between the drive and auger,
it will be the disc or band that takes up the load and convert the
drive power to smoke or a pin that gets sheared.

I have the post hole digger. They all come with shear pins which are
really grade 2 bolts. This is industry standard. Lots of folks ruin
their digger gearboxes when they use grade 8 bolts instead of grade 2.



2. I'm not sure what manner of PTO you have but if it's reversible,
be sure your clutch will work equally well in reverse so you can back
out the auger after you get it hung up on a rock. Disc clutches will
usually work in reverse. Radial pin clutches, will not. Band
clutches might work, depending on design.

No reverse on the PTO. You have to take the bolts out and unscrew the
augur using a big wrench. That's how it was done in 1939 on
inexpensive tractors.

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/10/19 9:04 PM, bruce2bowser@gmail.com wrote:
> Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then?

In 1939?
No.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 10:04:33 PM UTC-4, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

Yes:

Diodes were the first semiconductor electronic devices. The discovery of crystals' rectifying abilities was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874. The first semiconductor diodes, called cat's whisker diodes were made of crystals of minerals such as galena.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 5/11/19 2:15 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Friday, May 10, 2019 at 10:04:33 PM UTC-4, bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:

Were transistors or semi-conductors also around back then? Incidentally, I know little about science, math and technology, so you know: I'm just curious.

Yes:

Diodes were the first semiconductor electronic devices. The discovery of crystals' rectifying abilities was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874. The first semiconductor diodes, called cat's whisker diodes were made of crystals of minerals such as galena.

An accurate, but totally useless answer that you cut and pasted from:
<http://www.idc-online.com/technical_references/pdfs/electronic_engineering/History_of_diode.pdf>

Transistors weren't invented until 1947.

Generators were in use until the '60s, and mechanical regulators were
in use up to the 70's because prior to that they didn't have reliable
diodes and transistors.

So I repeat, in 1939, no.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Roger Blake]

On 2019-05-11, Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> wrote:

Generators were in use until the '60s, and mechanical regulators were
in use up to the 70's because prior to that they didn't have reliable
diodes and transistors.

In cars, Rambler had alternators with solid-state voltage regulators
starting with the 1964 models. (It was a Motorola system.)

--
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