Cost of Grid-Battery vs Diesel, Gasoline, Natural Gas and Ot

[Bret Cahill]

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.


Bret Cahill

 

[Tim Wescott]

Bret Cahill wrote:

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

(off topic spam snipped)
Plonk

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

 

[turtoni]

On Jul 24, 6:01 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Bret Cahill

Going electric would seem to be the way forward. Getting the electric
in and out of the grid is the big stumbling block.

 

[bigfletch8@gmail.com]

On Jul 25, 8:23 am, turtoni <turt...@fastmail.net> wrote:

On Jul 24, 6:01 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:





A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Bret Cahill

Going electric would seem to be the way forward. Getting the electric
in and out of the grid is the big stumbling block.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I remember last decade, hearing about the stumbling block of providing
enough band width due to the copper wire reticulation system, for the
internet, untill some 16 year old kid came up with a new algorithm.

Neccesity has always been the mother of invention, and as a species,
we have never failed to deliver.We thrive on challenges. it is in our
nature.

Just imagine having a nucleor reactor outside of our atmosphere, that
deilvers an 'infinity' of free energy, and all as we have to do is
learn to harness it.

The planet and its flora and fauna have been doing a good job of this
for more than a few decades.

We are always playing 'catch up'.

BOfL

 

[turtoni]

Going electric would seem to be the way forward. Getting the electric
in and out of the grid is the big stumbling block.

On Jul 24, 6:45 pm, "Sid9" <s...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
There are many ways to do it.
All America needs is the leadership to provide the motivation.
Republican have demonstrated that they haven't got what's needed.

Politicians are salesmen.

For example Clinton had eight years.

I'm not interested in salesmen.

I'm interested in Scientists.

 

Bret Cahill wrote:

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Al says,

Try our new and improved Low Temperature BEC, now with Rubidium!

 

[DB]

Tom Biasi wrote:

OK Rob,
I block Google Groups because of the enormous spam.
I only see these post when someone replies.
From what I see its not electronics but a rant regarding energy of crop
farming.
I guess I can tolerate it.
My fingers got a little excited.
Really, its just light hearted poking based on what usually goes on here.

Such is usenet, especially with google now.

BTW, I just got eclipse up and running, debugging the ez430!!!. (looks
like to will be e-zee to get my jtag going.) I'm a hobbyist, so until
I'd have a real product I can't see paying $1000 to get past the IAR 2k
limit. If they were smart, they would sell a student license like MS
does for VS. I use the VS student license to see if I could get a
professional product together before buying a real license. MS wins on
this one. Now that I've moved to eclipse I really like the idea that I
can get under the hood and make it do my wish list! I can also side by
side the likes of gumtree to process the work of those embeddeds!

Until you take the leap, you, (I), don't know how cool it can get.

Best, Dan.

 

[Bret Cahill]

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Bret Cahill

Going electric would seem to be the way forward. Getting the electric
in and out of the grid is the big stumbling block.

There are many ways to do it.
All America needs is the leadership to provide the motivation.
Republican have demonstrated that they haven't got what's needed

Cheney-Shrub certainly led the way to bankrupting America and sending
as much money to terrorist nations as possible.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Bret, the story is much more in favor of electricity than what you present.

Diesel has a heating value average of 38.6 MJ/liter, or 146MJ/gallon. That is 40.7 kWh.
Efficiency of diesel engines, mmm, varies widely, but probably in between 30% and 40% (anyone has any better numbers?) in real life
use in a large vehicle.

That would mean that a diesel engine would release between 12 kWh and 16 kWh of work from one gallon of diesel.

At close to $5/gallon (current diesel retail price in California), this is $0.30-$0.40 per kWh.

For gasoline, the story is even worse : 34.8MJ/liter (132MJ/gallon), and lower efficiency (20%-25%) in real life vehicles, gives 7.3
kWh - 9 kWh of work.
At $3.80/gallon gasoline, this is $0.42-$0.52 per kWh.



future predictions snipped

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Future predictions don't even enter the equation either.

The calculations are not even as sophisticated as back of envelope.

The real problem is psychological. Everyone is in a state of denial.

And this is not limited to newsgroups. You see this in industry,
government, think tanks, universities . . . even independent
inventors.

I even had to fight myself to make this post!


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:28:19 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

The real problem is psychological. Everyone is in a state of denial.

And this is not limited to newsgroups. You see this in industry,
government, think tanks, universities . . . even independent
inventors.

I even had to fight myself to make this post!

---
Too bad you didn't win.

JF

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:32:24 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com>
wrote:

..
..
..

Meanwhile, you have an advantage over most people :
you know that electricity is cheaper than liquid fuel,
so find the businesses that will do well in that scenario.
Or even start a business yourself that makes electrical
farm equipment or anything else that you
think makes sense.

As Stanford Ovshinsky said : "if you want to change the world, don't just talk about it. Do it !".

---
Bingo!

Nicely put, BTW.

JF

 

[beav]

<point snipped, leaving wistful political stance>

I believe Obama has the
leadership qualities that
will get a scientific solution
to our energy problem going.

if you really look at his policies, he has none.

he's all sizzle and very little steak.

the democrats, as a party have no plan either. their ONLY claim to
fame is "we aren't them."

when they do open their yaps with 'ideas' they amount to diseconomic
vote pandering based on class envy.

this is a shame, because if we had countervailing plans between the
parties, the country could really make a choice and take a direction.

quit kidding yourself. there is no spoon.

>

 

[Immortalist]

On Jul 24, 3:01 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:

A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

Why not just charge battereis with solar
put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks
electric cars of all kinds switch out the racks
200 miles
racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack
40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Bret Cahill

 

Why not just charge battereis with solar
put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks
electric cars of all kinds switch out the racks
200 miles
racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack
40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

200 mile range, I assume drivers will "fill up" somewhere at the half
empty point on average.
So how many battery packs have to exist per car? Will all cars be able
to use the same battery pack?
A busy service station would need massive solar panels.
Wind turbines might do better in some locations, but you'd need lots
of extra batteries for the wind lulls.
Seems a plausible concept with problems

 

[Immortalist]

On Jul 25, 7:23 pm, jess225...@gmail.com wrote:

Why not just charge battereis with solar
put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks
electric cars of all kinds switch out the racks
200 miles
racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack
40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

200 mile range, I assume drivers will "fill up" somewhere at the half
empty point on average.

If all existing gas stations converted over to electric, there would
be plenty of place to run it down to empty. Except at certain places
along the freeway there should be an exchange within blocks.

So how many battery packs have to exist per car? Will all cars be able
to use the same battery pack?

There could be three or four models that would fit all cars. A
standard would have to be agreed upon.

A busy service station would need massive solar panels.

Truck the racks in from the power plant or charge them there by
electric lines coming in from solar plants. Made this up about ten
years ago.

Wind turbines might do better in some locations, but you'd need lots
of extra batteries for the wind lulls.

Heard about this one recently. One company is building one mirror
every 8 minutes and they believe they can supply all of Albuquerque
New Mexico 24 hours a day, this with only 4 square miles of mirrors,
thermoses, steam engines and generators.

Create a circle of magnifying mirrors
focus on water in pipe
boil
put in large thermos containers
run steam engine even at night
steam engine runs generator
no panels and no batteries

Seems a plausible concept with problems

I think this is what will happen.

 

[Immortalist]

On Jul 25, 10:41 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:

Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why not just charge battereis with solar put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks electric cars of all kinds
switch out the racks 200 miles racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack 40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

Not viable. Have you the remotest concept of how much solar would
be needed at each rack station, and how long it takes to charge the
rack again and how many cars would be swapping the rack on even
a single decent interstate ?

It wouldnt even be viable with nukes for the charging.

It would make more sense to use nukes to produce hydrogen and use that instead.

Naw, you charge them up outside town, on a large scale, truck them in
just like they do gas with tankers.

Currently the gas is stored underground. But stations would probably
turn into warehouses. When you pull up the standard arm comes out,
pulls out the tired pack and slaps another in, in seconds. Faster than
putting any liquid in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud8JZLgNFHE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7855053520463952175
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nGheClD-lY&feature=user

 

[Immortalist]

On Jul 25, 11:00 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:

Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote
Why not just charge battereis with solar put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks electric cars of all kinds
switch out the racks 200 miles racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack 40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"
Not viable. Have you the remotest concept of how much solar would
be needed at each rack station, and how long it takes to charge the
rack again and how many cars would be swapping the rack on even
a single decent interstate ?
It wouldnt even be viable with nukes for the charging.
It would make more sense to use nukes to produce hydrogen and use that instead.
Naw, you charge them up outside town, on a large scale,
truck them in just like they do gas with tankers.

That wouldnt change a thing viability wise. In fact it would make it much worse.

One tractor truck load would carry alot of full tanks.

Currently the gas is stored underground. But stations would probably
turn into warehouses. When you pull up the standard arm comes out,
pulls out the tired pack and slaps another in, in seconds. Faster than
putting any liquid in.

The problem aint with swapping the battery, its with charging it so its usable again.

Are you saying that if this took off on a large scale that there
wouldn't be enough light to charge more batteries than each station
could use? Suppose the battery racks were being charged 24 hours a
day. Of course I am not imagining some back yard thing here but
charging areas everywhere, I mean major electric companies. Replacing
gas this ay wouldn't be some small project.

Suppose that it were possible to charge enough batteries a day to
supply every car,billions of them, so they could be driven 24 hours a
day? Would that be the possible limit, I doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud8JZLgNFHE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7855053520463952175
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nGheClD-lY&feature=user

Just more mindless silly stuff that misses the point utterly.

Sorry put that in with reference to another post in this thread.

 

[Immortalist]

On Jul 26, 12:05 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:

Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote



Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote
Why not just charge battereis with solar put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks electric cars of all kinds
switch out the racks 200 miles racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack 40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"
Not viable. Have you the remotest concept of how much solar would
be needed at each rack station, and how long it takes to charge the
rack again and how many cars would be swapping the rack on even
a single decent interstate ?
It wouldnt even be viable with nukes for the charging.
It would make more sense to use nukes to produce hydrogen and use that instead.
Naw, you charge them up outside town, on a large scale,
truck them in just like they do gas with tankers.
That wouldnt change a thing viability wise. In fact it would make it much worse.
One tractor truck load would carry alot of full tanks.

Again, the problem aint with moving the batterys, the problem is the amount of
time it takes to recharge them and return them to where you put them into cars.
That approach of centralised charging would just make that problem much worse
and you would need a lot more batterys in the process of being recharged.

I wouldn't say that it would be centralized, or as centralized as oil
refinement. Again, we are not both defining "scale of production and
distribution" nor "supply and demand" on large scales, the same way. I
am talking about on a competitive level with existing energy
production methods.

I suppose you are all hung up on the unstated assumptions about how we
get from here to there? That of course is an important issue, but is
somewhat off topic, as I have addressed the topic.

Currently the gas is stored underground. But stations would probably
turn into warehouses. When you pull up the standard arm comes out,
pulls out the tired pack and slaps another in, in seconds. Faster
than putting any liquid in.
The problem aint with swapping the battery, its with charging it so its usable again.
Are you saying that if this took off on a large scale that there wouldn't
be enough light to charge more batteries than each station could use?

No, that it takes too long to recharge them, compared with the rate at which
they are being discharged with all those cars heading down the interstate.

Then your saying that it would be impossible to charge two, three, or
even four times as many batteries as all cars could possibly use in a
day? It appears that you are just saying, no, but providing no
evidence to support the logic, which of course would be begging the
question itself. Maybe you are implying that the cost would be
disproportionate to existing energy production an distribution
methods?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

Suppose the battery racks were being charged 24 hours a day.

They cant be with solar charging.

What if water was superheated and then stored in thermoses and then de-
pressurized to allow boiling at night, and then run steam engines to
turn generators.Actually scrap that, are you saying that the number of
batteries and solar charging infrastructure needed to charge in the
daytime would be impossible to produce? You have not produced any
evidence to support that position yet.

Of course I am not imagining some back yard thing here but
charging areas everywhere, I mean major electric companies.

If you're going to charge them from the grid, there isnt
any point in recharging them centrally, it makes a lot more
sense to recharge them at the battery swapping stations.

Thats like saying that gas stations should refine their oil and gas
from crude to eliminate distribution charges. For that matter you
sound like one of those cynics complaining when the automobile was
invented that they would never be able to replace the horse and buggy.

Replacing gas this ay wouldn't be some small project.

And wouldnt be viable either.

Here is where some argument is needed instead of merely heckling down
an evidence based argument with appeals to ignoratio.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

Suppose that it were possible to charge enough batteries a day
to supply every car,billions of them, so they could be driven 24
hours a day? Would that be the possible limit, I doubt it.

You'd have a problem with the fact that the charging takes longer than the discharging.

If we replace the subject and predicate of your argument with X and Y
we see how weak it is. Maybe you could learn of a way to say what your
trying to say with more strength. How you say it has as much strength
as the descriptive/explaination that; refining crude into gas takes
longer than burning it in an engine therefore it is impractical and
may be impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud8JZLgNFHE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7855053520463952175
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nGheClD-lY&feature=user
Just more mindless silly stuff that misses the point utterly.
Sorry put that in with reference to another post in this thread.

Nope, it was referring to those urls of yours.

The urls were in reference to boiling water and the further
possibility of storing highly heated water in thermoses to run steam
engines at night. Steam engines which turn generators, this without
solar panels or batteries.

Sorry about the logic ribbing but I come from alt.philosophy and I am
going into normal mode now loc.

 

[turtoni]

On Jul 25, 10:23 pm, jess225...@gmail.com wrote:

Why not just charge battereis with solar
put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks
electric cars of all kinds switch out the racks
200 miles
racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack
40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

200 mile range, I assume drivers will "fill up" somewhere at the half
empty point on average.
So how many battery packs have to exist per car? Will all cars be able
to use the same battery pack?
A busy service station would need massive solar panels.
Wind turbines might do better in some locations, but you'd need lots
of extra batteries for the wind lulls.
Seems a plausible concept with problems

the problem is in getting the whatever type of "economical" electric
in and out of the grid.

 

[DB]

Rod Speed wrote:

Immortalist <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Why not just charge battereis with solar put in racks of 20
warehouse charged universal racks electric cars of all kinds
switch out the racks 200 miles racks available every 20 miles
deposit on a rack 40 seconds to switch out the rack at a "station"

Not viable. Have you the remotest concept of how much solar would
be needed at each rack station, and how long it takes to charge the
rack again and how many cars would be swapping the rack on even
a single decent interstate ?

It wouldnt even be viable with nukes for the charging.

It would make more sense to use nukes to produce hydrogen and use that instead.


And again, this rod has no numbers.......

Feed the troll away!!!!!!!!