Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept b

Rich Grise · Jan 6, 2005

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 08:35:33 -0800, Erik Max Francis wrote:

Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

From the now extinct page http://medlib/jsc.nasa.gov/intro/vacuum.html:

I have a set of links regarding this here:

http://www.alcyone.com/max/links/science.html#Explosive_decompression__vacuum_exposure

Included is Geoffrey Landis' summary of the literature on the subject:

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum_sf.html

I've just done a little anecdotal-grade experiment. Everybody's done the
"how long can you hold your breath" trick, with some people achieving
three or four minutes. But I thought, in vacuum, you don't have a lungful
of air. How closely can I simulate that condition by just simply exhaling
as hard, and completely, as I can?

So I did. I exhaled, and continued to exhale, forcing all of the air out
of my lungs that I was able to - since I'm in the atmosphere, there will
obviously be some quantity of air remaining. Oh, well, we'll have to
adjust our parameters. So I squeezed out as much as I could, and started
watching the clock.

At 45 seconds, I was impelled to breathe. I'm sure I could have gone
longer, but the "BREATHE NOW!" imperative from my limbic system was more
powerful than my desire to see if I got a buzz from it.

I guess the point is, you'd probably stay conscious for more than 15
seconds, but it would, like, hurt, like being strangled or something.
Shudder!

Thanks!
Rich

Logan Kearsley · Jan 7, 2005

I've just done a little anecdotal-grade experiment. Everybody's done the
"how long can you hold your breath" trick, with some people achieving
three or four minutes. But I thought, in vacuum, you don't have a
lungful
of air. How closely can I simulate that condition by just simply
exhaling
as hard, and completely, as I can?

So I did. I exhaled, and continued to exhale, forcing all of the air
out
of my lungs that I was able to - since I'm in the atmosphere, there will
obviously be some quantity of air remaining. Oh, well, we'll have to
adjust our parameters. So I squeezed out as much as I could, and started
watching the clock.

At 45 seconds, I was impelled to breathe. I'm sure I could have gone
longer, but the "BREATHE NOW!" imperative from my limbic system was more
powerful than my desire to see if I got a buzz from it.

I guess the point is, you'd probably stay conscious for more than 15
seconds, but it would, like, hurt, like being strangled or something.
Shudder!

Unfortunately, your simulation didn't really match vacuum conditions very
well. The major difference is that when your lungs are full of nothing,
gases in the blood will actively *escape* back out into the lungs. The
blood going through your lungs will not only not be re-oxygenated, it will
be very efficiently de-oxygenated. The 15 seconds of consciousness comes
from the fact that this is about how long it takes blood to get from your
lungs to your brain. Once blood that's had all of the oxygen sucked out of
it reaches your brain, it's game over as far as remaining conscious goes.

So, presumably, something with haemocyanin based blood, which only releases
oxygen with the right chemical triggers, would last significantly longer...?

Maybe that's why martians are green.

-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.

Erik Max Francis · Jan 7, 2005

Rich Grise wrote:

I guess the point is, you'd probably stay conscious for more than 15
seconds, but it would, like, hurt, like being strangled or something.
Shudder!

No, you wouldn't. The vacuum doesn't just prevent you from breathing,
it also seriously deoxygenates the blood that passes through your lungs.
When the blood first deoxygenated from the depressurization incident
reaches your brain through normal circulation, suddenly your brain is
getting almost zero oxygen; that takes 5-15 seconds. Then you pass out
very quickly.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
I needed sunshine in my day / Something to wash away the pain
-- Zhane

Jim Thompson · Jan 2, 2005

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:43:39 GMT, "Kryten"
<kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Dreamer" <javidhussain@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104663271.364433.314240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

Call me mister boring if you will, but if humanity did manage to make such
an ark with 100% recycling and 45,000 years of fuel and life support, then
do they really even need to launch it?

I mean, you could just park it somewhere and get in it. That amount of time
is long enough to sit out some naturally-occurring ice ages, which are
massive climate swings compared with a greenhouse blip.
So you just sit inside, without worrying about meteorite impacts and gravity
generation etc.

Also, photosynthesis is very inefficient (c. 0.02%?) so they'd have to be
replaced by a more efficient CO2 to O2 processor.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Woodgate · Jan 3, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Svein Ove Aas <svein.ove@aas.no>
wrote (in <crbcs7$9tq$1@services.kq.no&gt

about 'Colony ship to Alpha
Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept by A. Ahad', on Mon, 3 Jan 2005:

start quoting John Woodgate :

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote (in <k9rgt0pn6abgccogl3pibuff0ccsa8c5nd@
4ax.com&gt about 'Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture
Concept by A. Ahad', on Sun, 2 Jan 2005:

IIRC, Tucson's Biosphere 2 Human Greenhouse was a flop.

But that was only the second prototype. If such projects are continued,
they will work after a while.

IIRC, one of the reasons it flopped was because curing concrete sucked up a
number of useful gases (like, say, oxygen?).
That's one thing we'll know not to do again; iterate until done.

I suppose some oxygen could be absorbed by rusting reinforcing wires.
Concrete also evolves carbon dioxide very slowly, as carbonates are
converted to complex silicates. To what extent it absorbs carbon dioxide
in the initial setting process, I find conflicting reports.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Starlight-Starbright · Jan 4, 2005

Excuse the french... but when was "Ahad" alive? Is he a UK person?
cheers!!!

S-S

Dreamer · Jan 5, 2005

Starlight-Starbright wrote:

Excuse the french... but when was "Ahad" alive? Is he a UK person?
cheers!!!

Your the third one to ask me this. If its not a wind up, yes his a UK
person (born in Bangladesh though). He wants to make a $100 million
hollywood film "First Ark to Alpha Centuri" (very ambitious). I have
done a 6 page biography on the boy here--

http://www.geocities.com/javid_hssn/science/astronomy/ahad.html

Whatever the story line you should see the exotic weather on this ship.
"Since the gravity vectors are constantly changing in the "Centauri
Princess" artificial gravity spin, the rainfall and winds will be sure
to cause some exotic weather phenomena throughout this ingeniously
designed starship of the future...!"

His FAQ page has all the detail---
http://uk.geocities.com/aa_spaceagent/fiction/FAQ.html

JH

John Woodgate · Jan 5, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kryten <kryten_droid_obfusticator@
ntlworld.com> wrote (in <rUTCd.224$Wo1.18@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net&gt

about
'Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept by A. Ahad',
on Wed, 5 Jan 2005:

Arthur C Clarke's story "Rendezvous with Rama" also had a huge
cylindrical spaceship.

Not the first one, either. Larry Niven's 'Confinement Asteroid' is
earlier. Construction begins in 2050.(;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Rich Grise · Jan 5, 2005

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:09:36 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kryten <kryten_droid_obfusticator@
ntlworld.com> wrote (in <rUTCd.224$Wo1.18@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net&gt about
'Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept by A. Ahad',
on Wed, 5 Jan 2005:
Arthur C Clarke's story "Rendezvous with Rama" also had a huge
cylindrical spaceship.

Not the first one, either. Larry Niven's 'Confinement Asteroid' is
earlier. Construction begins in 2050.(;-)

I've heard that if you find a suitable metallic asteroid, turning it into
a sphere is almost trivial - you drill a core and fill this core with
water, or ice. Plug up the hole. Use a solar mirror to heat up the whole
thing to its melting point, at which time the water in the core will be
superheated steam. The metal melts, and Bwoop! the steam inflates it to an
iron/nickel bubble. Then just poke a hole and start building stuff on the
inside.

I also read a story where somebody went and got a big ice asteroid, or
maybe a chunk of Saturn's rings, and just dropped it on Mars. You'd have
to get a new ice block every few hundred years, because the atmosphere
will eventually escape.

And whoever tows the first iron/nickel/cobalt asteroid into a parking
orbit is going to become very, very rich. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Rich Grise · Jan 6, 2005

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:37:41 +0000, Kryten wrote:

"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.01.06.06.30.13.992685@example.net...
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:22:07 +0000, Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

expel my breath as hard as I could, so my lungs don't explode. Of
course,
you'd have to keep your eyes shut real tight.

IIRC you get around 15sec of consciousness in vacuum. Which is quite a
long time
if all you have to do is open a door.

And close it behind you, and turn the "AIR NOW!" valve, and so on. ;-)

I wonder what it would feel like on your eyes, if you, like, peeked?

Dunno, but I'm pretty sure your eyes are under no pressure to pop out of
your head on stalks (as shown on Total Recall) or your head pop like a messy
balloon (as in Outland). Unless of course your head is full of compressed
air.

It is true that blood contains dissolved gases, but a decrease of 1
atmosphere is only about the same as ascending 407 inches (10.3 metres) in
water. I don't think you get the bends unless you have been down a fair bit
deeper or longer.

Not the bends, but I'm thinking of pneumothorax. In scuba school, they're
very emphatic that if making an emergency ascent, _don't try to hold your
breath_!

And I don't think you want to get me started on the effects of intestinal
gas during pressure changes - this one can be a challenge in a 32-floor
elevator ride. ;-)

Thanks!
Rich

Rich Grise · Jan 2, 2005

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 02:54:31 -0800, Dreamer wrote:

"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

http://uk.geocities.com/aa_spaceagent/firstarktoalphacentauri.html

In this multi-generation voyage concept envisioned by Ahad, the 600
square km's of pine forests and lakes across the cylinder biosphere
will require nearly 2 million lights, each one has to provide solar
constant (1,350 watt per sq. metre) equivalent of flux.

"On a voyage spanning 50,000 years...", how much nuclear reserves would
be needed to carry onboard to meet just the lighting needs? Quite a bit
one thinks. Is there some electronic break throughs round the corner
for _low consumption_ and high durable _LED_ based lighting that could
be use? We have 170 years to go before Ahad's epic starship is launched
to the nearest star... So what is the outlook for this super-lighting
technology in the next few decades?

You don't need full sunlight throughout the ship, and you certainly don't

need it 24/7!

I say, if you've got generation ships, you must have fusion. So, find out
how much energy you get out from fusing lithium deuteride or whatever.

check newsgroups like news:sci.physics.fusion, news:alt.energy.nuclear,
news:alt.engr.nuclear, news:alt.engineering.nuclear, that sort of thing.

But every generation ship story I've read, they just ignored that and
concentrated on the inbreeding and revolutions and stuff.

Good Luck!
Rich

Pig Bladder · Jan 2, 2005

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 02:54:31 -0800, Dreamer wrote:

"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

http://uk.geocities.com/aa_spaceagent/firstarktoalphacentauri.html

In this multi-generation voyage concept envisioned by Ahad, the 600
square km's of pine forests and lakes across the cylinder biosphere
will require nearly 2 million lights, each one has to provide solar
constant (1,350 watt per sq. metre) equivalent of flux.

"On a voyage spanning 50,000 years...", how much nuclear reserves would
be needed to carry onboard to meet just the lighting needs? Quite a bit
one thinks. Is there some electronic break throughs round the corner
for _low consumption_ and high durable _LED_ based lighting that could
be use? We have 170 years to go before Ahad's epic starship is launched
to the nearest star... So what is the outlook for this super-lighting
technology in the next few decades?

If you're just going to be in a big air tank, why go anywhere? There's a

lot of room in orbit around the Sun. What would all these tank-bred people
do with a planet anyway, if they found one?
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, Still Waiting for
Some Hot Babe to Ask What My Favorite Planet Is.

Kryten · Jan 2, 2005

"Dreamer" <javidhussain@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104663271.364433.314240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

Call me mister boring if you will, but if humanity did manage to make such
an ark with 100% recycling and 45,000 years of fuel and life support, then
do they really even need to launch it?

I mean, you could just park it somewhere and get in it. That amount of time
is long enough to sit out some naturally-occurring ice ages, which are
massive climate swings compared with a greenhouse blip.
So you just sit inside, without worrying about meteorite impacts and gravity
generation etc.

Also, photosynthesis is very inefficient (c. 0.02%?) so they'd have to be
replaced by a more efficient CO2 to O2 processor.

John Woodgate · Jan 2, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Pig Bladder
<pigbladder@neodruid.net> wrote (in <pan.2005.01.02.21.36.51.329221@neod
ruid.net&gt

about 'Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture
Concept by A. Ahad', on Sun, 2 Jan 2005:

If you're just going to be in a big air tank, why go anywhere? There's
a lot of room in orbit around the Sun.

Ringworld. A million-mile wide ribbon encircling what was Earth orbit.

What would all these tank-bred
people do with a planet anyway, if they found one?

Indeed. Even though 'the stars are there', there would need to be a VERY
good reason to attempt the journey at subluminal speed.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Jim Thompson · Jan 2, 2005

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:43:39 GMT, "Kryten"
<kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Dreamer" <javidhussain@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104663271.364433.314240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

Call me mister boring if you will, but if humanity did manage to make such
an ark with 100% recycling and 45,000 years of fuel and life support, then
do they really even need to launch it?

I mean, you could just park it somewhere and get in it. That amount of time
is long enough to sit out some naturally-occurring ice ages, which are
massive climate swings compared with a greenhouse blip.
So you just sit inside, without worrying about meteorite impacts and gravity
generation etc.

Also, photosynthesis is very inefficient (c. 0.02%?) so they'd have to be
replaced by a more efficient CO2 to O2 processor.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Jan 3, 2005

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:47:48 GMT, "Clarence_A" <no@No.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
"Kryten" wrote:
"Dreamer" <javidhussain@hotmail.com> wrote in message
"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay
by A.
Ahad]
snip

IIRC, Tucson's Biosphere 2 Human Greenhouse was a flop.
...Jim Thompson

This one? http://www.bio2.com/index.html

Hope it wasn't build with tax monies.
Great place to raise tomatoes!

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

J. F. Cornwall · Jan 3, 2005

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:43:39 GMT, "Kryten"
kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Dreamer" <javidhussain@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104663271.364433.314240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

"First Ark to Alpha Centauri" - [A motion picture screenplay by A.
Ahad]

Call me mister boring if you will, but if humanity did manage to make such
an ark with 100% recycling and 45,000 years of fuel and life support, then
do they really even need to launch it?

I mean, you could just park it somewhere and get in it. That amount of time
is long enough to sit out some naturally-occurring ice ages, which are
massive climate swings compared with a greenhouse blip.
So you just sit inside, without worrying about meteorite impacts and gravity
generation etc.

Also, photosynthesis is very inefficient (c. 0.02%?) so they'd have to be
replaced by a more efficient CO2 to O2 processor.

IIRC, Tucson's Biosphere 2 Human Greenhouse was a flop.

...Jim Thompson

Nah, it was a successful experiment that pointed out a lot of
technologies that did not work as intended. Negative results are as
important as positive ones.

JFC

JeffM · Jan 3, 2005

an ark with 100% recycling
and 45,000 years of fuel and life support,
then do they really even need to launch it?
Kryten

IIRC, Tucson's Biosphere 2 Human Greenhouse was a flop.
Jim Thompson

They underestimated how much land and biomass it took to support a

human.
The residents were soon on partial rations.
Heh. If it wasn't for water imports,
the L.A. Basin would be nothing more than a few scattered villages.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=los-angeles-basin+could-naturally-support-*-people

photosynthesis is very inefficient (c. 0.02%?)
so they'd have to be replaced by a more efficient CO2 to O2 processor.

Biosphere II pointed out their lousy calculations on that too

--they had to "open the windows".
Cornwall is right; failed experiments can be important too.

John Woodgate · Jan 3, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kryten <kryten_droid_obfusticator@
ntlworld.com> wrote (in <Gb5Cd.2$4V2.1@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net&gt

about
'Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept by A. Ahad',
on Mon, 3 Jan 2005:

Don't come here, even if you are edible."

Misquote. Replace 'if' by 'though'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Jan 3, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that J. F. Cornwall <JCornwall@cox.net>
wrote (in <HG1Cd.32258$F25.20907@okepread07&gt

about 'Colony ship to
Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept by A. Ahad', on Sun, 2 Jan
2005:

Nah, it was a successful experiment that pointed out a lot of
technologies that did not work as intended. Negative results are as
important as positive ones.

Even more. Positive results are just confirmation. Negative results are
doorways to new knowledge.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Colony ship to Alpha Centauri - The Motion Picture Concept b

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