Chip with simple program for Toy

[Paul E. Schoen]

"David M Lemcoe Jr." <lemcoe9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:d2bba4f224c38cab8808c5d9947@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

Hello Fleetie,

Not neccesarily what I expected, but okay.
The reason I called it channel, my bad, was because before this I oped in
IRC channels, and still haven't gotten 100% used to Usenet.
I thought I could also get a friendlier response, but apparently not.

[snipped and bottom posted per usual netiquette]

There has been actually a reduction in spam in the last couple of months. I
think Google has taken steps to make it more difficult for spammers to use
their free usenet access as indiscriminately as they had been. It seems
like there are now maybe five to ten spam messages a day, here, and the
reason this NG is especially plagued is that Google Groups identifies it as
a high activity NG, which is a big fat carrot for the dumb asses who expect
to get rich quick by getting more clicks on their sites.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:3r778457n4g6kepl2p37ve2quui2k39act@4ax.com...

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:13:02 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
pstech@smart.net> wrote:


"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message
news3u6841m0gkfu88flpdgtsmdm3jfj6945e@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires. It's not as
simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and
the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised
to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It
could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line
to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with
a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient
for
energy conversion.

Paul


Even better, build a solid roof over the entire field, and sheath the
underside with conductive metal, like the bumper cars at the beach.

Well, the solid roof would block rain and sun, but a metal grid would work.
However, the bottom conductive plate would not grow much corn.

Or how about a tower, with a laser or microwave beam aiming power at a
collector array on the tractor?

That is a horror movie waiting to be put on You-Tube

Or hang a cable to the tractor from a tethered satellite with solar
cells.

They are working on geosynchronous satellites on tethers that might make
that a reality someday.

Or go back to using oxen. That will revive the whip business, creating
many jobs.

If the economy deteriorates enough, people may need to go back to a simpler
way of life. We may need to take lessons form the Amish. Putting more
people to work doing hard physical labor would be a good thing. Not so many
bored, unhealthy kids (and adults) blowing off their excess energy and
frustrations by driving aggressively and playing violent computer games.

Life is so much more exciting without math.

I think my idea has a chance to work. Probably more practical than
batteries.

Paul

 

[Bob Masta]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:42:00 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

"David M Lemcoe Jr." wrote:

Is there ANY attempts being made to cut down on the spam in the channel?
I mean I think it is rediculous that the same few spammers spam on this and
other newsgroups I belong to (namely comp.lang.python). If a moderator is
needed I would more that gladly become a moderator.

Moderated groups require a lot of work by volunteers.

You may find it simpler to use a filter. Blocking all Google posts is popular.

I have no statistics on this, but I suspect that beginners are more
likely to arrive at SEB from Google than from a normal Usenet
subscription, particularly those folks who have a one-time question
about a particular problem rather than those setting out to broaden
their electronics skills.

So, if we block all those flashing-LED questions we might be missing a
chance to introduce newbies to the joys of electronics. And if we
block all the house-wiring questions we might be missing a chance to
save lives!

Just a thought...



Bob Masta

DAQARTA v4.00
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
FREE Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!

 

[Tom Biasi]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:ktr784lrkrrkmueqna911b9jrlr3o56vam@4ax.com...

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:54:37 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

When I post solutions on oil and basic necessities for human survival
and you want to discuss sig figs, start another thread.


Bret Cahill


Since you seem to be The Messiah, maybe you should post in one of the
religion groups.

John

John,
Could you ay least remove all this groupers crosspost so we don't have to
see them?


Tom

 

[Jeff Higgins]

sp wrote:

Hai

Can we generate 30W power using solar input

HAI
VISIBLE <http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/24203.wss>
KTHXBYE

Thank u

 

[Rob Dekker]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:9is984pd60rnk8u9puqnm8amaejofp9l30@4ax.com...
......

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

John

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:701f2fdd-5cc0-4b1d-9c36-af3b2b602942@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...

Forget carbon. �Forget AGW. �The _only_ serious permanent solution
is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? �Or overhead wires
like street cars?

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.

With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.

The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. The tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.

=========================================================================

I think you are fixated on batteries. Why not plant in circles as they do
with pivot arm irrigation, and then use a variation of the pivot arm to
provide power to the tractor? The tractor could be made to ride along with
the pivot arm, and each pivot could be provided with a fairly small
distribution transformer and a DC bus supply powered from a grid of
underground cables. The tractor could have a standard three phase motor
driven by a V/F controller directly from a DC supply cable on a reel. Much
of the system could be automated. Circular crop fields (not alien crop
circles) are already used in some areas where 100% land use is not needed,
and the unused areas could be used for small yield alternate crops tended
by hand, or just for wind and erosion buffers.

http://ask.metafilter.com/44058/Since-when-did-farmers-grow-circular-crops

http://www.fluther.com/disc/1721/why-are-some-agricultural-fields-circular-especially-in-the-midwest/

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=2618

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/crops/04704.html

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/irsprayhigh.html

http://www.piercecorporation.com/home.html

http://www.pivotirrigation.com.au/

And looky here! It's been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere!

http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with-phil-timmons-re-the-electric-farm/

I think it's an excellent idea and will be commercially available soon.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Tim" <qwer@q.con> wrote in message
news:w8mdnX-HQotyvhvVnZ2dnUVZ_q_inZ2d@aci.on.ca...

BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:0e0e2462-d1c8-404c-8823-7bb768c6828a@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

What doesn't sound reasonable about plowing from a rotating structure?

You need to establish that it cannot be done physically and when you
fail at that then you need to come up with some numbers that show is
cheaper to spend $100 billion a year on diesel.

Think about whether it's easier to harvest grain, or corn, or whatever
with a combine in a field with straight or spiral furrows and it might
dawn on you.

Well? Don't keep us settin' on the edges of our chairs.

I have posted links in the other (original) thread about circular fields.
This is already being done for irrigation using a center pivot, and I'm
fairly sure the ground is tilled and crops planted the same way. The total
amount of land unused compared to square fields is something like 15-20%,
and I contend that the unused areas can be beneficial, as a windbreak,
erosion control, or for planting other crops that can be cultivated by
hand. Some crops may be more suited to circular planting and harvesting
than others, but it is more a matter of getting used to it, and adopting
new technology.

What is the problem with, essentially, attaching an electric tractor to the
pivot arm, which will have a power cable on a reel, and have it traverse
the field in a circular pattern? If the tractor needs to be moved to
another location, there can be a path to a grid of roadways outside the
swing of the pivot arm. The tractor could have a small battery pack to
allow it to move to a new location where it can pick up mains power. If the
tractor is not working, the power requirements to move to a new location on
a flat road are minimal.

Also, a 300 HP diesel tractor can be replaced by a 100 to 200 HP electric,
because the diesel is rated at maximum, while the electric motor has a much
better HP/torque curve, and is also capable of short time overloads of 2x
to 3x if needed.

For a large farm, it should be possible to build a biomass-powered
electrical generator that can run more efficiently and cleaner than the
equivalent diesel tractor.

Paul

 

[Rob Dekker]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message newsfoc84prrlukm3jsshoebtmeg1aqt2urc9@4ax.com...

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:32:57 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square. ?The
tractor only needs a small battery to make each pass, about a mile.

With two wires, one at each end, the battery can be even smaller.

The GM Volt goes 40 miles between charges. ?The tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.

In electric-only mode, the Volt will go 40 miles between charges.

And the tractor goes one mile.

Or 1/2 mile.

Recharge time is two orders of magnitude less than the Volt.


Bret Cahill

Your ideas are excellent. Take them to one of the agriculture-related
newsgroups, where people will be grateful for your brilliant
suggestions. I'm sure all the farmers in the USA will be cutting
spiral rows next season.

John

It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.

 

[Rob Dekker]

<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message news:3b85f7ee-b438-4a7d-95f1-48e1e06713b5@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

how much do they cost,

Whatever happened to rugged induhvidualism? ?Visitwww.homedepot.com
and look it up.

? ?Whatever happened to clear thought,

IWe're still waiting for some clear thinging on the fundamental
differences between plug in hybrids and grid-battery tractors.

Bret, I admire your out-of-the-box idea of battery-driven tractors, I don't think that full-electric tractors are going to show up
any time soon.

Couple of differences with plug-in hybrid passenger vehicles come to mind :
- The use diesel, which has a higher value of combustion than gasoline cars, and higher in efficiency than gasoline cars.
- They are (when working) operating at near-optimal efficiency (constant high power; near the most efficient RPM possible).
- The don't gain much from regenerative breaking.
- Tractors are essentially a big engine on wheels. Their entire purpose is to provide high-power for an entire work-day out in the
field. The diesel tank is configered accordingly.

Battery technology is not competitive with such modes of operation. In my back-of-the-envelope calculations, we need a 6-10X
improvement of battery energy density (w.r.t. Li-ion) before the range can be matched with equal power and equal weight.

Battery tech IS competitive for passenger vehicles, although even there we need to compromise on the driving range (hence PHEVs). So
from all the vehicles around, tractors have a lower chance of going full-electric for a while.

Different story for electric-drive tractors. Electric-drive (such as used in diesel-electric locomotives) does save fuel, increases
torch, and simplifies operation.
Caterpillar has at least one of these fuel savers :
http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5853

Smaller tractors (lawn-mowers and other etc) could actually go electric rather easily.

I already provided one difference: The tractor battery only needs a
charge that will last a few minutes, an order of magnitude less time
than the hybrid.

True, if it needs to re-charge during the work day.
10 recharges during a work-day would compensate for the 10X difference in battery tech.
So your idea might work IF the farmer finds it acceptable to re-charge 10X per work day.

Rob

 

[Rob Dekker]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message news:rcvb84d1if3fofeka1cm7bd55a61hkksok@4ax.com...

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:31:33 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

---
And the more expensive the finished battery cost per watt-hour.

The tractor only goes a mile between charges so a tractor battery
doesn't need a lot of watt-hours / work done.

---
Really?

Your 400 horsepower tractor, working for an hour, would need a battery
which can supply about 300KWH, (300 000 watt-hours) and if it's doing
it with an output voltage of 300V that means it needs to be rated for
an output of 1000AH at C/1.

That's a lot of watt-hours and a lot of work done.

True. But technically speaking, a 300 kWh battery is not completely rediculous : It will cost about $100,000 wholesale, and weigh
less than 2 ton.

These are not unsurmountable numbers for a big-ass 400 hp tractor, considering the savings in fuel it would create.
But of course the practicle problems remain : recharging 10X per day seems hardly acceptable when you are out in the field. Even for
fast recharges.
The machines are typically leased by the hour, and you really don't want to loose any time during a work day.

Rob

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"thsuper1" <thsuper1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d3e7d3e0-0663-4488-b775-304eaa4b70f9@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

I See. So if:

+ 12v
|______o <- load pos
|
_
^
|______o <-load neg.
gate |
-drive D
_______G
S
|
|
= ground


What would you expect the output to be if the input waveform is 12v p-
p? The battery is not getting drawn down, yes I have measured, but
thanks for asking. That's the kind of thinking I'm used to. What would
you do to this to make a higher output waveform? take the load off at
a different point? my load is a power step-up transformer.

A power step-up transformer will saturate and the voltage on it will depend
on its winding resistance and the current supplied by the MOSFET. In your
case you might have 20 amps or more from the battery, and the transistor
will see about 200 watts while it is turned on. The actual power will
depend on the duty cycle, but this is not a practical circuit for driving a
tranny. You need a center tapped transformer with a push-pull driver, or a
full bridge circuit. The only exception to that might be if you are using
the transformer as an inductor, and transferring the stored energy through
another diode into a capacitor and load as a switching supply.

Paul

 

[Rob Dekker]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news03d84lmmg67locue99lb1h71mb4orkt29@4ax.com...
.....

It's more likely that we will move to no-till agriculture.


Lots of things are practical if yoy kill off about 96% of the
population first.

Not sure why you change the topic.

My remark was serious : Farmers in the United States already use no-till methods on 37 percent of the nation's cropland. It's likely
to increase, since there are many benefits.
Only one of these benefits is less fuel needed (since no plowing is done).

Rob

 

[Thomas Magma]

<jalbers@bsu.edu> wrote in message
news:841c4ffa-5ab4-4bd7-bdd6-0e9e59dd320d@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

I am looking for a circuit that will give me the average of a
fluctuating DC signal. I am using the term average to roughly mean a
value in the middle but doens not have to be exact.

A few years ago I was told by some people in this group to simply use
a low pass filter. At that time I did not have the equipment, time,
or knowledge of filters to mess with it. I have started to play
around with different types of filters...

I have done a little bit of experimenting using a scope, signal
generator, and a simple low pass RC filter but can't get it to work to
find the average of the signal.

I am ultimately interested in averaging the fluctuating DC signal from
a homemade EDM machine which is a basically a big DC relaxation
oscillator. For various reasons, I do not want to use the actual EDM
machine for these experiments. I have been using a function generator
and also a NE-2 relaxation oscillator to somewhat simulate the signal
that the EDM machine is going to be putting off. I have experimented
with sine, triangle, square, and relaxation oscillator wave forms with
enough DC offset to push the entire waveform completely up above the x-
axis on the scope. To no surprize, increasing the frequency begins to
attenuate the signal and the output of the low pass filter starts to
hug the x-axis. The capacitor is removing the DC component and
attenuating the AC part of the signal.

I don't think that a LC low pass filter is going to work the way I
want it to either. It will not remove the DC component but the
waveform will still hug the x-axis.

I am looking for something that will attenuate the signal as the
frequency increases but still keep the DC component of the signal.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

A capacitor in a low pass filter shouldn't be removing the DC component, by
definition it is just the opposite. What voltages and frequencies are we
talking about here? And what is this x-axis you are talking about?

How about a simple RC filter?

Thomas

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

<rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9057cc22-3671-486a-b8b5-185af8ee5ee1@r35g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

On Jul 21, 10:47 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
What idiot suggested this?

And _no_ you cannot key word search to identify the moron.

---
Seems the idiot posted:
"Another option is to eliminate the tractor altogether and drag the
plow and other impliments off of a "super pivot," the common "crop
circle" irrigation structure beefed up for the heavier load.

The impliments would move inward for a spiral furrow."

What doesn't sound reasaonable?

Anyway, all this dodges the issue:

What idiot suggested that furrows cannot be circular or spiral?

Bret Cahill


A pivot is a collection of A-frames supporting a pipe,with electric
motors to drive the wheels mounted on the frames to turn pivot it
around one end. Beefing up the structure to drag a plow will require
many more frames to support a much heavier beam. The monstrosity will
need wheel trucks on each frame that is worth a tractor, in pulling
power; unless there are so many of them that they are close enough
together to allow two, or more, to pull on the implement, without
bending the beam. Even when its section is not pulling the implement,
each wheel truck will still require energy to drive it around the
field.

As you are beefing up the structure, anyway, you may as well take your
idea to its logical absurdity and make the pivot rotate on its center
and make it a self supporting structure, on its central pier-- your
plow drawing pivot is now a swingbridge. It is hugely expensive, but
does not need all of theose powered wheel trucks to carry and move it.

How is this scheme better than a single tractor, when you will stiil
need a tractor to get seed and fertiliser to the field and bring the
harvest out.

What problem were you hoping to solve with this contraption?

I can't speak for the OP, but the existing framework of the center pivot
irrigation device could easily provide the electrical power needed to
supply a tractor, which would normally plug into the supply cable on the
frame but could have enough battery reserve to maneuver from one field to
another. If the framework were high enough, the tractor could maneuver
under tethered electrical power freely enough to do its work in a variety
of patterns. The pivot arm structure would best support circular planting
patterns, but there could be enough slack to allow the tractor to work in
the areas between the circles.

A linear type irrigation system could be used to supply electric power to a
tractor for more conventional square or rectangular fields. There are many
benefits of electric tractors over fossil fueled, including better
efficiency, lower maintenance costs, zero emissions, no fuel spills, and
easier implementation of programmed and automatic or remote control
operation.

I think it's worth some effort to build a prototype and demonstration
system. This entire discussion seems to have become repeatedly sidetracked
by arguments about the original "hybrid grid battery" idea, which does have
serious technical problems. But mechanized operations within limited areas
are ideally suited to a motorized tool connected by a tether to a fixed
power source, and it is not that difficult to transfer that tool (tractor)
to subsequent connection points.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"H. Dixon" <huwdixon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c355097c-162f-4a04-b0b1-7c38202cae07@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

I'm using Slone's Tab book to learn the basics. It's pretty good so
far although once in a while the book takes bigger leaps so I stumble
a bit.

What I've got so far is the the two 24V transformers with the
primaries in parallel, the secondaries in series. I've tested the
outputs from each secondary (about 28V each) and the secondary circuit
common reads 50V. I've added a 250V 6A bridge rectifier and attached
the free secondary leads from each transformer to the AC inputs on the
bridge. The bridge shows 50V DC out.

The book has me (temporarily) add two 10K resistors - one between the
secondary circuit common and the bridge positive lead, and another
from the secondary circuit common and the bridge negative lead.

Testing DC between secondary circuit common and the + bridge lead
shows +24V.
Testing DC between secondary circuit common and the - bridge lead
shows -24V.
This agrees with the book. His next two tests don't work for me.

Testing" AC" between secondary circuit common and the + bridge lead
shows about 50V.
Testing" AC" between secondary circuit common and the - bridge lead
shows about 0V.
His book indicates I should get about 12V for each. That I don't
understand. Something just
doesnt seem to read right here.

I've rechecked what I've done with the schematic and everything looks
good. All tests have agreed with the book except for these last two.

Any advice much appreciated.

H. Dixon

If you are using one of the el-cheapo $3 Harbor Freight type meters, be
advised that they read AC simply by using a single diode to half-wave
rectify the signal. For an ordinary sine wave, it works pretty well, but
any DC component will throw off the readings "big-time". It is best to get
a true-RMS meter, but at least get one that uses a precision full-wave
rectifier circuit. Any meter that has low AC volts and AC millivolts should
work OK. But there are decent true RMS meters available on eBay and
discount places for as low as $60 or so.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastech-PC-RS232-Interface-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter_W0QQitemZ200235023485QQihZ010QQcategoryZ58277QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

An acceptable meter (not true-RMS) can be had for about $15:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mastech-32-Range-Digital-Multimeter-Diode-Continuity_W0QQitemZ200239812115QQihZ010QQcategoryZ58277QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Even for about $13 you can get a 4 digit meter that has autoranging,
capacitance, frequency and duty cycle:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sinometer-Auto-8-Function-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter_W0QQitemZ190234374559QQihZ009QQcategoryZ58277QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

I have ordered meters from Multimeter Depot before and have been quite
satisfied.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:c3f1f4ca-b8e6-4ed8-8d0f-7046657904f7@h17g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

The Tesla is powered by 7,000 Li-Ion laptop batteries for an output of
200 kW.

A similarly powered 300 kW electric tractor (10,500 batteries) would
turn a 400 hp articulated 22 gallon/hour diesel tractor every which
way but loose in a tractor pull which apparently is vitally necessary
education as well as entertainment for those too ignorant do basic
IEOR calculations.

Running either tractor wide open to work a square mile at 0.5 mph
would take 3 months of 7 day work weeks at 8 hours / day.

It would also require 17,000 gallons of diesel.

Today the cost is "only" $80,000 for the diesel.

In 2 years, with the price of hydrocarbon fuel spiraling by 30% a
year, that cost will be $150,000/yr.

In six years the cost of the fuel will be half a million dollars.

And that's just for one field.

Maybe if we have massive truck and bus conversion to natural gas --
include farm tractors in Pickens plan -- the price will "only" be
$350,000/field in 6 years.

The battery tractor would be cheaper even if grid power tripled and
even if you went to your overpriced Apple Inc. store and bought the
batteries one by one and wired them together one by one yourself.

Now, if you don't believe laptop batteries exist, please go to alt.
conspiracy and post there.

Here is some detailed information on the cost and return for field corn
farming in the Sacramento Valley, in 2004, when diesel was about
$1.60/gallon.

http://coststudies.ucdavis.edu/files/cornsv2004.pdf

It also lists costs of equipment and hours per acre for various farming
operations. It seems like there was not much ROI at that time, and since
then fuel costs have risen and the economy is worse, so people have less to
spend. Elsewhere there may be reports on the costs to manufacture enough
methanol or ethanol from an acre of corn to provide the energy to run the
required farming operation.

I have not analyzed these figures, but that is what needs to be done to see
how much of a crisis we may be heading toward, and just gut feeling
indicates that something needs to be done, *soon*. But this proposal is not
as simple as electrifying one tractor and having it run continuously. There
are many farming operations requiring different implements at different
times, and there are seasons where there will be intensive use, and others
where very little needs to be (or can be) done.

The specifications of the Tesla do not directly translate to the tractor.
The Tesla will consume its rated 200 kW or 268 HP only when it is, for
instance, going 0-60 in 4 seconds. So that is 800 kW-Sec of energy, and it
uses capacitors for surges like this. Most of the time it will be cruising
at normal speeds where a small car needs only about 10 HP to overcome wind
resistance and rolling friction. So that is 7.5 kW, and its range is given
to be about 200 miles, or about 3.5 hours at 60 MPH. So its total energy is
about 25 kW-Hr. For a tractor that really needs a continuous output of 250
kW, it would only run for about 6 minutes. Then it would need to be
recharged, and I don't know of any laptop batteries that can be charged
efficiently and safely in less than about 30 minutes. So you would need to
run this system at a duty cycle of about 20%, no matter how large the
battery pack. That means the best you could do would be about 5 hours a
day, and a 19 hour charge, and that would require a battery pack 30 times
bigger than the Tesla's.

I think I did my math correctly. Some of my assumptions might be off one
way or the other. But I think this is a reasonable order-of-magnitude
reality check.

Math and science can poke holes in a dream, but there are realistic
alternatives that will work.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Don Bowey" <dbowey@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C4AD1AC9.BF22F%dbowey@comcast.net...

I suggest the discussion of how to farm with what tools and what power
source, be moved to alt.agriculture.

There is currently a thread running there about powering a tractor with
an
extension cord.

Please don't send a copy to s.e.b.

The thread on alt.agriculture is interesting, but it fizzled out 2 months
ago in May. Much of the discussion was about inventions and patents, and
various erroneous technical comments, and a few solid ideas. This whole
electric tractor discussion has moved beyond the basics level, and a
practical design will involve input from electronic (or electrical) design
engineers, as well as mechanical engineers and the farmers who will
actually use the contraptions that we may come up with.

Paul

 

[Sid9]

"turtoni" <turtoni@fastmail.net> wrote in message
news:f2c66bd1-0650-4b84-a02e-f325a5424069@j7g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

On Jul 24, 6:01 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
A new diesel engine can cull up to 50 kW-hrs from a gallon of diesel.

Since there is no substitute coming on line anytime soon there is no
reason to believe the cost of hydrocarbon fuel will stop spiraling,
especially with China's double digit growth rate, with oil wells
"rolling over" and with the Fed trying to keep the frog from jumping.

In two years the cost of an equivalent of diesel fuel will be $8.50 a
gallon and in 6 years it will be $25/gallon, if not more.

Today the cost of mechanical energy from diesel power is 10 cents/kW-
hr., in two years it will be 17 cents/kW - hr. and in 6 years, 50
cents/kW-hr.

TVA now sells now electricity for 7 cents/kW-hr off peak.

You can buy a lot of cell phone or laptop batteries with the amount of
money you are now paying for diesel, gasoline or other hydrocarbon
fuel.

Polar bears and tropical frogs never even enter the equation.

Bret Cahill

Going electric would seem to be the way forward. Getting the electric
in and out of the grid is the big stumbling block.

There are many ways to do it.
All America needs is the leadership to provide the motivation.
Republican have demonstrated that they haven't got what's needed

 

[Rob Dekker]

"terryc" <newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message newsan.2008.07.24.13.44.58.964547@woa.com.au...

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:18:19 -0700, BretCahill wrote:


It's a whole lot cheaper to electrify, even if you have to buy 14,000
laptop batteries (twice that of the 200 kW Tesla) and install them
yourself.

Actually, your system might work better if the tractor camewith a pair of
swappable battery packs that you dock in and out of a charging station.

It would certainly help the economics by reducing the peak power demands.

I like that idea a lot.
Could maybe even have a separate battery 'wagon' that follows the tractor closely by itself (with a distance sensors and a small
computer).
The battery wagon can be plugged in an out very easily (without having to remove the battery from the tractor itself).
Only problem might be that the mass of the tractor might no longer be enough for good traction.
So maybe we should leave the old ICE in there )