Chip with simple program for Toy

[Richard Crowley]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote ...

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

No.

Chips handle discrete pieces of information (aka. "bits").

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?

Because an audio tape (and a phonograph disc, and an
optical track on a film and an old-fashioned telephone)
are all analog, continuous-signal devices.


There were chips called "bucket-brigade" which would
store analog signals (typically low-quality audio) in a semi-
analog fashion. But the audio was "sampled" at a regular
interval and then the samples were shifted into the analog
"buckets".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_Brigade_Device

Higher-density RAM (typically Flash, etc.) uses a form of
this where they store more than one bit of information per
cell. For example, by distinguishing between four different
levels of charge, they can store two binary bits of information
in a single cell, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_ram#Principles_of_operation

 

[Richard Crowley]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote ...

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

No.

Chips handle discrete pieces of information (aka. "bits").

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?

Because an audio tape (and a phonograph disc, and an
optical track on a film and an old-fashioned telephone)
are all analog, continuous-signal devices.


There were chips called "bucket-brigade" which would
store analog signals (typically low-quality audio) in a semi-
analog fashion. But the audio was "sampled" at a regular
interval and then the samples were shifted into the analog
"buckets".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_Brigade_Device

Higher-density RAM (typically Flash, etc.) uses a form of
this where they store more than one bit of information per
cell. For example, by distinguishing between four different
levels of charge, they can store two binary bits of information
in a single cell, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_ram#Principles_of_operation

 

[LAB]

An analog Hard Disk?

 

[LAB]

An analog Hard Disk?

 

[Richard Crowley]

"LAB" wrote ...

An analog Hard Disk?

Hardly the "chip" that Radium was asking about.

But if you could get the head to move linearly
across the platter (vs. in concentric "cylinders"
as we use for data storage) then it would be the
magnetic equivalent of a spiral phonograph disk.

The old original Ampex HS-100 disc recorder
was the video equivalent of that concept. It was
the original gadget that allowed "instant replay"
for sports shows, etc.

 

[Richard Crowley]

"LAB" wrote ...

An analog Hard Disk?

Hardly the "chip" that Radium was asking about.

But if you could get the head to move linearly
across the platter (vs. in concentric "cylinders"
as we use for data storage) then it would be the
magnetic equivalent of a spiral phonograph disk.

The old original Ampex HS-100 disc recorder
was the video equivalent of that concept. It was
the original gadget that allowed "instant replay"
for sports shows, etc.

 

[Mr.T]

"Michael R. Kesti" <michaelkesti@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:47FB0977.E74491DF@nospam.net...

" wrote:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
devices a a way to do what you here propose.

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?


In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.

Ah but he never used the word "persistant", nor mention size contraints.
A "chip" can mean anything, including potato ones
Analog delay lines do exist.

The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
media.

Nor did Radium use the words "solid state media"

You did take his bait though :-(

MrT..

 

[Mr.T]

"Michael R. Kesti" <michaelkesti@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:47FB0977.E74491DF@nospam.net...

" wrote:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

I generally avoid saying things are impossible but it seems nobody has
devices a a way to do what you here propose.

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?


In the case of a silicon die (a chip) there is no mechanism for persistent
storage of voltage nor is there much in the way of distance along which
to store the voltage if there were such a mechanism.

Ah but he never used the word "persistant", nor mention size contraints.
A "chip" can mean anything, including potato ones
Analog delay lines do exist.

The answer, it seems, is that physics just doesn't provide a mechanism
that can be used to provide direct storage of analog audio on solid state
media.

Nor did Radium use the words "solid state media"

You did take his bait though :-(

MrT..

 

[Gareth Magennis]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:47faff63$0$24124$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

What is a "chip" and how does it work? Try that in Wikipedia and no doubt
you will find your answer. Future advances in technology may be able to do
what you are thinking of, but they wouldn't be "analogue chips" as we
currently define them, would they.



Gareth.

 

[Gareth Magennis]

"Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote in message
news:47faff63$0$24124$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

What is a "chip" and how does it work? Try that in Wikipedia and no doubt
you will find your answer. Future advances in technology may be able to do
what you are thinking of, but they wouldn't be "analogue chips" as we
currently define them, would they.



Gareth.

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

"Stephen J. Rush" <sjrush@comcast.net> wrote in message
newstmdnf-_Wvr3s2banZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@comcast.com...

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:51:36 -0700, mowhoong wrote:

There are wide value of lighting capacitor, range from 4 uf to 50 uf.
but I am not sure which value to pick for my 40 W fluorescent light run
in 230 volts ac. Can any person help me in this . Thanks and Regards

Lighting _capacitor?_ None of my line-operated fluorescent lamps has a
capacitor. I suppose one could use a capacitor instead of the usual
inductive ballast, but I've never seen it.

Most I've seen used a 3.3uF (as PF correction)

--
Cheers ............. Rheilly

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

"Stephen J. Rush" <sjrush@comcast.net> wrote in message
newstmdnf-_Wvr3s2banZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@comcast.com...

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:51:36 -0700, mowhoong wrote:

There are wide value of lighting capacitor, range from 4 uf to 50 uf.
but I am not sure which value to pick for my 40 W fluorescent light run
in 230 volts ac. Can any person help me in this . Thanks and Regards

Lighting _capacitor?_ None of my line-operated fluorescent lamps has a
capacitor. I suppose one could use a capacitor instead of the usual
inductive ballast, but I've never seen it.

Most I've seen used a 3.3uF (as PF correction)

--
Cheers ............. Rheilly

 

[Bob Masta]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:15:15 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?

Actually, that audio cassette *does* use sampling. One sample
interval is the width of a magnetic domain on the tape, at the rate it
passes by the head gap. Each domain can hold only one value
(amount of magnetization) and has a finite length, so the data is
quantized. The difference with purely-digital methods is that analog
tape has many domains passing under the gap at any point in time, with
random alignments, so their individual samples are summed together.
This gives the illusion of a continuous response.

Consider a conceptual system with domains that completely fill the
head gap length. The domains would be in a neat line on the tape, so
they pass the head one by one. Each domain would effectively be one
sample, and the recording would clearly be quantized. (However, if
the domain transitions are narrow relative to the gap width, there
would be some sample-to-sample smoothing as the head would read parts
of two domains during the transition. Still a sampled system.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v3.50
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, FREE Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!

 

[Bob Masta]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:15:15 -0700, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?

Actually, that audio cassette *does* use sampling. One sample
interval is the width of a magnetic domain on the tape, at the rate it
passes by the head gap. Each domain can hold only one value
(amount of magnetization) and has a finite length, so the data is
quantized. The difference with purely-digital methods is that analog
tape has many domains passing under the gap at any point in time, with
random alignments, so their individual samples are summed together.
This gives the illusion of a continuous response.

Consider a conceptual system with domains that completely fill the
head gap length. The domains would be in a neat line on the tape, so
they pass the head one by one. Each domain would effectively be one
sample, and the recording would clearly be quantized. (However, if
the domain transitions are narrow relative to the gap width, there
would be some sample-to-sample smoothing as the head would read parts
of two domains during the transition. Still a sampled system.)

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v3.50
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, FREE Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Pj" <frysning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:56e1b36d-09f3-4c22-af01-57644ddb023a@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com

"
gluceg...@excite.com> wrote:
Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
audio without using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why
would an analog audio chip?


Try the BRAIN. Works good there.

Take a couple "chip" out of your memory.

Begs the question how do we remember sounds?

I'm thinking that I remember music as a sequence of notes (samples), and
speech as a sequence of either words or phonemes. In all cases, I remember a
sequence of samples.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Pj" <frysning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:56e1b36d-09f3-4c22-af01-57644ddb023a@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com

"
gluceg...@excite.com> wrote:
Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
audio without using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why
would an analog audio chip?


Try the BRAIN. Works good there.

Take a couple "chip" out of your memory.

Begs the question how do we remember sounds?

I'm thinking that I remember music as a sequence of notes (samples), and
speech as a sequence of either words or phonemes. In all cases, I remember a
sequence of samples.

 

[Arny Krueger]

<google@woodall.me.uk> wrote in message
news:c2de71f0-ba4b-45e5-88fd-d13f742e0bc5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com

On Apr 8, 6:54 am, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
audio without using any form of sampling?

NO

Depends for how long.

Wikipedia gives speed of sound in silicon (thin rod) as
8433 m/s.

So you ought to be able to store a few microseconds of
sound in a resonably sized crystal for a very short
period - sort of dynamic RAM for sound

(The noise added when you try and "refresh" will drown
out any signal in a very short space of time although
I've got no idea how many "refreshes" might be possible
before the noise drowns out the signal)

Back in the days when people took acoustic delay lines seriously, they
shaped the medium into forms that provided relatively lengthy unique paths.
For example, maybe a pentagon. The acoustic wave would bounce around for a
while, crossing paths many times, and thus have a relatvely long path length
in a relatively small volume.

Last example of this I ever saw implemented was a device called (I seem to
recall as) the IBM 2448 display controller. Each display unit was basically
a TV set without a tuner. The controller had one delay line per display. The
video for one screen would bounce around a quartz delay line for 1/30th of a
second, if memory serves.

 

[GregS]

In article <Hb-dnTi12Kwk6mbanZ2dnUVZ_q6mnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

google@woodall.me.uk> wrote in message
news:c2de71f0-ba4b-45e5-88fd-d13f742e0bc5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com
On Apr 8, 6:54 am, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Green Xenon [Radium]" wrote:
Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
audio without using any form of sampling?

NO

Depends for how long.

Wikipedia gives speed of sound in silicon (thin rod) as
8433 m/s.

So you ought to be able to store a few microseconds of
sound in a resonably sized crystal for a very short
period - sort of dynamic RAM for sound

(The noise added when you try and "refresh" will drown
out any signal in a very short space of time although
I've got no idea how many "refreshes" might be possible
before the noise drowns out the signal)

Back in the days when people took acoustic delay lines seriously, they
shaped the medium into forms that provided relatively lengthy unique paths.
For example, maybe a pentagon. The acoustic wave would bounce around for a
while, crossing paths many times, and thus have a relatvely long path length
in a relatively small volume.

Last example of this I ever saw implemented was a device called (I seem to
recall as) the IBM 2448 display controller. Each display unit was basically
a TV set without a tuner. The controller had one delay line per display. The
video for one screen would bounce around a quartz delay line for 1/30th of a
second, if memory serves.

I worked on at least one terminal that had a delay line memory. Quartz does not
ring a bell. I used to try programming an Ascii terminal display so you could play
video games, like the race track. Some digital logic like from General Dynamics used
dynamic logic. using delay lines, a 1 was a pulse and a 0 was no pulse.

Any non saturating analog line is going to have severe degradation.

greg

 

[Gareth Magennis]

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:EaudnT4Z3Iyg62banZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@comcast.com...

"Pj" <frysning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:56e1b36d-09f3-4c22-af01-57644ddb023a@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com
On Apr 8, 12:15 am, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
gluceg...@excite.com> wrote:
Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores
audio without using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why
would an analog audio chip?


Try the BRAIN. Works good there.

Take a couple "chip" out of your memory.

Begs the question how do we remember sounds?

I'm thinking that I remember music as a sequence of notes (samples), and
speech as a sequence of either words or phonemes. In all cases, I remember
a sequence of samples.

I dunno, if I try and recall a piece of music, it does feel like I am
actually recalling just certain "landmarks" and filling in the gaps. There
are definately notes or sounds that I know are there and can reproduce
accurately in my head, but I have no idea how the bassline goes, for
example. In trying to remember a piece in totality, I can only really hear
a fractured version of it, though my brain fills in a lot without my
necessarily noticing.

But then isn't that how hearing works normally?
I believe that the brain can only perceive 4 or 5 things at the same time -
some people more, some less than this. You can try this with a simple
experiment:
Imagine yourself sitting in your car at a red traffic light. Then imagine
thinking about youself sitting at this red traffic light. Then imagine
thinking about thinking about yourself at this red light. Then imagine
thinking about thinking about thinking about sitting at the red light. And
so on. You can't get much further than this without losing track
completely, since you need to hold each situation in your conciousness
simultaneously for it all to make sense. In listening to music, you could
only really be hearing a few things at the same time, and maybe certain bits
trigger other emotional memories without us noticing exactly what is
happening.

Other interesting research has suggested that the pleasure of walking
through a beautiful landscape is not that we can see all this beautiful
landscape, because that is not how we see things - we pick and store (very
few) visual landmarks and fill in the rest. The pleasure is all about
knowing that ALL the beautiful visual information is AVAILABLE, should we
choose to look at it properly. Listening to/remembering music I would
guess is quite similar. You can always listen to that bassline next time
around.



Gareth.

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <47faff63$0$24124$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Green Xenon [Radium] <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Hi:

Is it possible to have a purely-analog chip that stores audio without
using any form of sampling?

If an audio cassette does not require sampling then why would an analog
audio chip?

You asked very much this same question, just over one year ago, in the
sci.electronics.basics newsgroup.

You got a whole bunch of responses, which I believe covered the
issue quite well.

I suggest that you go back and read the previous responses, rather
than asking essentially the same question (in your usual ill-defined
manner) once again.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!