Chinese Student' enrollments in US dropping.

[KLM]

Abstract from :
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/16/eng20040316_137636.shtml

Foreign students applying for admission to US master and PhD degrees programs
have dropped extensively, said a report released by the US Congressional Budget Office
wo weeks ago, and New York University also said its Chinese students has decreased by 50 percent.
According to the China Press, a newspaper based in U.S., a report given by
"meeting of postgraduate schools" held last week said 90 percent of the US universities'
research institutes have reported a drop of foreign students. This year foreign students,
especially those from China and India, who apply for admission to the US universities' research institutes decreased by 32 percent.

Last week, a report of Princeton University says foreign applicants
for its undergraduate departments have dropped by 20 percent;
applicants for research institute have fallen by 26 percent. Science and Engineering Schools
are most influenced, with Chinese students' number dropping by 50 percent. The Northwestern University
says Chinese students applying for its McCormick School of Engineering and Applied Science
has decreased dramatically, and those applying for electrics and computer science dropped by 56 percent.

I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that KLM <klmok88@yahoo.com> wrote (in
<lt0g50dc7akstaf6qvibsq9pglkglaed63@4ax.com&gt about 'Chinese Student'
enrollments in US dropping.', on Wed, 17 Mar 2004:

I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

Maybe their own universities are now at least up to the standard of most
US ones?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:20:45 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that KLM <klmok88@yahoo.com> wrote (in
lt0g50dc7akstaf6qvibsq9pglkglaed63@4ax.com&gt about 'Chinese Student'
enrollments in US dropping.', on Wed, 17 Mar 2004:

I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

Maybe their own universities are now at least up to the standard of most
US ones?

Or, with all the increased visa hassles they face, they are deciding
to go elsewhere in the West or stay at home. It's certainly not due to
a lack of spendable money.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

KLM <klmok88@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<lt0g50dc7akstaf6qvibsq9pglkglaed63@4ax.com>...

Abstract from :
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/16/eng20040316_137636.shtml

Foreign students applying for admission to US master and PhD degrees programs
have dropped extensively, said a report released by the US Congressional Budget Office
wo weeks ago, and New York University also said its Chinese students has decreased by 50 percent.
According to the China Press, a newspaper based in U.S., a report given by
"meeting of postgraduate schools" held last week said 90 percent of the US universities'
research institutes have reported a drop of foreign students. This year foreign students,
especially those from China and India, who apply for admission to the US universities' research institutes decreased by 32 percent.

Last week, a report of Princeton University says foreign applicants
for its undergraduate departments have dropped by 20 percent;
applicants for research institute have fallen by 26 percent. Science and Engineering Schools
are most influenced, with Chinese students' number dropping by 50 percent. The Northwestern University
says Chinese students applying for its McCormick School of Engineering and Applied Science
has decreased dramatically, and those applying for electrics and computer science dropped by 56 percent.


I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

Its simple, really. The Asian nations have spent big (and long term,
unknown in the west) on developing their own well funded, high quality
tertiary institutions. They no longer need to travel to the west......

73 de VK3BFA Andrew

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:43:23 GMT, the renowned "RC" <rc@nospam.net>
wrote:

says Chinese students applying for School of Engineering, Applied
Science,
and those applying for electrics and computer science dropped by 56
percent.


I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.


Its simple, really. The Asian nations have spent big (and long term,
unknown in the west) on developing their own well funded, high quality
tertiary institutions. They no longer need to travel to the west......

73 de VK3BFA Andrew


Also, the USA Multi-National Corporations are sending all the jobs to China.

India and other countries are getting their share too. China is
getting a lot of the manufacturing, but you don't generally go to
university abroad to prepare for that, except perhaps to run the
company.

Here's one example RFQ:

Project: VOIP (Internet Telephony) for a Contact Center

Description I work for a company that receives and process small
consumer loans from the internet. We are looking for a consultant who
can assist in relocating our current contact center in the US to
Vietnam. We would like full incoming and outgoing telephone services
from Vietnam to US or vice versa. We would want to start with support
for at least 25-30 agents initially. Therefore I am looking for the
most cost effective solution.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:jt1h50dgeujb84kkikts4a6mmus6dutk5n@4ax.com...

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:43:23 GMT, the renowned "RC" <rc@nospam.net
wrote:


says Chinese students applying for School of Engineering, Applied
Science,
and those applying for electrics and computer science dropped by 56
percent.


I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.


Its simple, really. The Asian nations have spent big (and long term,
unknown in the west) on developing their own well funded, high quality
tertiary institutions. They no longer need to travel to the west......

73 de VK3BFA Andrew


Also, the USA Multi-National Corporations are sending all the jobs to
China.

India and other countries are getting their share too. China is
getting a lot of the manufacturing, but you don't generally go to
university abroad to prepare for that, except perhaps to run the
company.

Depends.
Maybe it's a significant portion of the students who would have tried to
stay on and look for work in the US.
Now the work is at home - not the US

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[Winfield Hill]

Spehro Pefhany wrote...

Or, with all the increased visa hassles they face, they are deciding
to go elsewhere in the West or stay at home. It's certainly not due
to a lack of spendable money.

The visa hassles are *massive* Our recent Chinese postdocs have taken
one to two years to get approved, even with pulling out all the stops.
A common reason is that they'll come and not leave. But consider: One
of our fellows had a family and professorship waiting for him back home,
so he'd shouldn't have had a problem, yet his approval took over a year.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:21:34 GMT, the renowned "RC" <rc@nospam.net>
wrote:

Depends.
Maybe it's a significant portion of the students who would have tried to
stay on and look for work in the US.
Now the work is at home - not the US
--
Dirk

Exactly what I implied.
RC

That's a good point. The currently available jobs, growth rates and
optimism factors are much higher there. Lots of job openings, at low
pay, but money isn't everything and pay relative to living costs would
be high.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:th6h50plfkqspq7p4us1vfhiicis543fag@4ax.com...

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:21:34 GMT, the renowned "RC" <rc@nospam.net
wrote:

Depends.
Maybe it's a significant portion of the students who would have tried
to
stay on and look for work in the US.
Now the work is at home - not the US
--
Dirk

Exactly what I implied.
RC


That's a good point. The currently available jobs, growth rates and
optimism factors are much higher there. Lots of job openings, at low
pay, but money isn't everything and pay relative to living costs would
be high.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
But that doesn't solve the problem of getting the education so you can do

the job - it only gives you the job once you get the education. Therefore
it's *way* more reasonable to go with the more obvious solution that the
drop in enrolments is due to the visa hassles. We're probably still 5-10
years off the Chinese system being able to cope with the number of potential
students requiring a decent education.

Ken

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

KLM wrote:

Abstract from :
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/16/eng20040316_137636.shtml


Foreign students applying for admission to US master and PhD degrees programs
have dropped extensively, said a report released by the US Congressional Budget Office
wo weeks ago, and New York University also said its Chinese students has decreased by 50 percent.
According to the China Press, a newspaper based in U.S., a report given by
"meeting of postgraduate schools" held last week said 90 percent of the US universities'
research institutes have reported a drop of foreign students. This year foreign students,
especially those from China and India, who apply for admission to the US universities' research institutes decreased by 32 percent.

[snip]


I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

Yes, too many questions being asked.
A lad I know was born in Japan and rised in the US by non-US parents.
Went through the schools in the US with everything. His parent still
live in the US and all have green cards. Then while working for a
japanese company doing advertisements in the east asian
region he travelled quite a lot there. Upon arrival in the US recently,
the immigration got suspicius about the extended travels, questioned
him at the border, invalidated his green card and sent him back to
japan.
Well, yes, ...., I'm not really motivated to travel to the US myself
either. I once got a lifelong(!) visa to the US. Then at the
time I arrived, I was told that they are all invalid by now.
Now I'm required to get new biometric passport plus an interview
at the US embassy.
I'd rather have a look at antarctica if it needs to be.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:27:46 +0100, Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net>
wrote:

[snip]

Well, yes, ...., I'm not really motivated to travel to the US myself
either. I once got a lifelong(!) visa to the US. Then at the
time I arrived, I was told that they are all invalid by now.
Now I'm required to get new biometric passport plus an interview
at the US embassy.
I'd rather have a look at antarctica if it needs to be.

Rene

If you really want a ration of shit go to Canada and declare at the
entry that you're a consultant visiting your client. They turn this
fat bitch loose on you... you know, the one they always talk about "It
ain't over until the fat lady sings" ;-)

Ever since then I'm only a tourist.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

John "Peace for our Time" Kerry, Neville Chamberlain of this Century

 

[KLM]

I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

My take on the issue is that placement of grad studentsfrom China into
US universities and laboratories in the hard sciences and engineering
are practically all state sponsored. Only an insignificant number
have the means to pay their own way. The enrollment is therefore
(China) government directed and intimately linked to the number of
state sponsorships-scholarships to meet China's national development
goals. One thing for sure, from past experience, is that the Chinese
government takes a very, very long range look at whatever it does.

The question is what has changed in this long range goal?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:41:38 GMT, the renowned KLM <klmok88@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I don't know what to make of this development yet. But something
significant is happening.

My take on the issue is that placement of grad studentsfrom China into
US universities and laboratories in the hard sciences and engineering
are practically all state sponsored.

Do you have any support for that statement?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Winfield Hill]

Spehro Pefhany wrote...

KLM wrote:

My take on the issue is that placement of grad studentsfrom China into
US universities and laboratories in the hard sciences and engineering
are practically all state sponsored.

Do you have any support for that statement?

From the half-dozen I've know personally, I'd have to say, not really,
no more than I was state sponsored by my own scholarships. I suspect
no special obligation or loyalty results, beyond the usual patriotism
for one's parent country. Not that that isn't pretty strong.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

 

[KLM]

On 17 Mar 2004 19:23:40 -0800, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

My take on the issue is that placement of grad studentsfrom China into
US universities and laboratories in the hard sciences and engineering
are practically all state sponsored.

Do you have any support for that statement?

From the half-dozen I've know personally, I'd have to say, not really,
no more than I was state sponsored by my own scholarships. I suspect
no special obligation or loyalty results, beyond the usual patriotism
for one's parent country. Not that that isn't pretty strong.

First I am not implying any conspiracy theory. I am a proud Chinese
with a keen interest on China's place in the world. As I said earlier
China has very long horizons. For example the water diversification
scheme to bring the Yangtze waters (Three Gorges Dam) to the Huangho
watershed has a 50 year development timeline. The diversification
will supply as much water as the annual flow of the Huangho, long
known as China's Sorrow, but whose flow had sometimes not reach the
sea in recent years. Work has already started with the first results
promised to meet the water requirements for the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

My interest on the drop in graduate school enrollment is perked
because China does not make sudden changes of this magnitude. There
are no trade or other rivalries between the US, the rest of the world
and China. China has plenty of funds needed to continue her scholars
to the world program. Her economy is humming smoothly and can use
these graduates. To get these scholars abroad needs a lead time of
several years and long term bilateral agreements between China and
the universities. They are not something that can be yanked or
restarted on short notice. So were there signals from a few years ago
that everyone missed? Or is something significant happening now?

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:21:54 GMT, the renowned KLM <klmok88@yahoo.com>
wrote:

First I am not implying any conspiracy theory. I am a proud Chinese
with a keen interest on China's place in the world. As I said earlier
China has very long horizons. For example the water diversification
(ITYM "diversion")

scheme to bring the Yangtze waters (Three Gorges Dam) to the Huangho
(aka "Yellow River", so-called because of the thick yellow loess it

carries from the north)

watershed has a 50 year development timeline. The diversification
will supply as much water as the annual flow of the Huangho, long
known as China's Sorrow, but whose flow had sometimes not reach the
("Sorrow" because of all the millions killed by flooding over the

ages- the river bed tends to rise due to accumulation of silt and
flood unpredictably).

sea in recent years. Work has already started with the first results
promised to meet the water requirements for the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

Yes, it's hard to imagine a project that would involve displacing
2,000,000+ people. The 1970s era James Bay project in Canada was on a
similar scale (probably displacing 2,000,000 caribou), producing as
much hydroelectric power as 15 nuclear power plants and causing
changes easily visible on a global scale. Additional phases are now
being considered, 30+ years later, so, contrary to propaganda, not all
Western planning is limited to the next fiscal year.

My interest on the drop in graduate school enrollment is perked
because China does not make sudden changes of this magnitude. There
are no trade or other rivalries between the US, the rest of the world
and China.

You CERTAINLY wouldn't get that impression listening to some US
sources. And the US has recently gained a much more negative
reputation, justified or not, wrt human rights of visitors,
militarism, racism, the environment and other issues of keen interest
to foreign students.

China has plenty of funds needed to continue her scholars
to the world program. Her economy is humming smoothly and can use
these graduates. To get these scholars abroad needs a lead time of
several years and long term bilateral agreements between China and
the universities. They are not something that can be yanked or
restarted on short notice. So were there signals from a few years ago
that everyone missed? Or is something significant happening now?

Anecodotally, I've heard that many current students are not going home
for important family holidays such as Lunar New Year because of fears
they will not be re-admitted and thus will not graduate. BTW, does the
name "Wen Ho Lee" mean anything to you? Also the lesser- known case of
"Pin Yen Yang" (Four Pillars)?

From a recent study: "The survey found the largest number of
(visa)denials was for students from mainland China. For the 2002-03
academic year, 291 Chinese students accepted departmental offers and
100 of them (34 percent) were denied entry visas." That's an awfully
high percentage. Chinese students in certain tech areas are subject to
a US program called "Mantis", which is probably the source of most of
those rejections, and the stepped-up enforcement is a result of a
deliberate policy change, so it's deemed to be in US interests by the
US gov't. Maybe it is. Foreign students might learn something
dangerous, there is a lot of military-related research going on at US
universities. Their decision is that security trumps all else. <shrug>
Their decision. It's a way to be.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <6gsi50h9qgl5tjcjo8bd8r6btu1j9rdfct@4ax.com&gt
about 'Chinese Student' enrollments in US dropping.', on Thu, 18 Mar
2004:

It's
a way to be.

A way to be ..... VERY unpopular with a significant fraction of the
human population!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:58:08 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <6gsi50h9qgl5tjcjo8bd8r6btu1j9rdfct@4ax.com&gt
about 'Chinese Student' enrollments in US dropping.', on Thu, 18 Mar
2004:
It's
a way to be.

A way to be ..... VERY unpopular with a significant fraction of the
human population!

I'm not sure whether that would be considered desirable, undesirable
or neutral. There are arguments in favour (sic) of each.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Woodgate wrote...

Spehro Pefhany wrote ...
It's a way to be.

A way to be ..... VERY unpopular with a significant fraction
of the human population!

And VERY unpopular with a significant fraction of the U.S.
population, but that never stopped the GWB gang, who "won"
with a minority of the vote, and whose ultra-conservative
shock jocks now out-shout and fiercely vilify any opposition.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

 

[KLM]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:24:43 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

Yes, it's hard to imagine a project that would involve displacing
2,000,000+ people.

Its even harder to imagine the desertification of something like 1/4
of the more fertile region of China that supports >600 millions people
now. The tragedy of the Aral Sea is gruesome.

The Yangtze diversification is too compelling to ignore or to put off.
The Yangtze Three Gorges project itself is amazing for the benefits it
will bring. Every decade it has three massive floods that kills
thousands and downs whole provinces downstream. The excess waters
from the Yangtze will be very profitably used for the Huangho. This
is a continental sized project with continental sized consequences
that cannot be predicted. One positive argument will be that its
unlikely for both the Yangtze and the Huangho drainage areas to suffer
drought in the same year.