CFL on steroids any risk?

On Tuesday, 28 May 2019 20:23:16 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

Some basics:

a) ALL LED lamps should be used base-down unless otherwise marked. Yes, there are LED lamps designed for horizontal, vertical, base-up and base-down applications. But if UNMARKED, base-down only.

that [partially] applies to the higher power lamps only. 3w reflector lamps are good in any position, and are of course mostly used facing downward. Partially means lamp life is affected, but it still works.

> b) The driver (what is in the base) emits heat. Approximately 80% of all the heat generated by the lamp. The other 20% is spread throughout the emitters and in terms of 'feel' will be negligible.

No. The LEDs are the load, the driver is somewhere vaguely in the 90% region of efficiency, therefore the LEDs emit around 10x as much heat as the driver. Some lamps couple the LED heat to the base as a way to get some more heat out, a lot don't. Your belief would require 25% efficient SMPSUs! Even a crude 1 transistor smpsu using a screw for an inductor core can beat that..

> c) Keep in mind that an LED lamp, on average, makes about 150 - 200 lumens per watt. Let's use 200 for this discussion.

15w for 1500 lumens is currently typical for domestic lamps, or 100lpw.

d) This lamp will make very roughly 6,400 lumens, and about 26 watts in heat at the base. Note that the 10,000 lumens advertised is what is known in the industry as "Flash" lumens - the first 3 seconds that power is applied to the LEDs for the first time - and then only.
e) A typical incandescent lamp produces about 17 lumens per watt these days. But heat is emitted across the entire envelope, not concentrated in the base as with CFL or LED lamps.
f) Hence, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, and children of all ages - BASE DOWN unless marked otherwise. AND!!! the lamp base rating should be observed as compared to actual light delivered.
g) Meaning - if a base is rated for "60 watts", an ~1.100-lumen lamp should be pretty much the limit of what is installed in it, whether incandescent, CFL or LED.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

What in your opinion is the problem with a 100w equivalent 15w LED in an open ventilated 20w rated lampholder?


NT

 

On Tuesday, 28 May 2019 20:35:43 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

LED lamps these days may be controlled for spectrum to a remarkably fine degree. I work in, but not for, a hospital, and we, as the landlord are relamping approximately 1,000,000 s.f. of space including everything from ORs through research labs to animal, bacterial and plant facilities. You may bet, very safely, that in many of the labs and procedure rooms, CRI, Kelvin and Color are critical at many levels.

Yet, we are using perhaps two different basic lamps throughout with CRI, Kelvin & Color being controlled primarily via the drivers, not the emitters..

that is confused. CCT is determined by the emitters, of which those lamps have at least 2 of different CCT, or 3 R G & B. Adjusting the PSU determines which gets how much current, thus determining final CCT. It does not of course determine the CCT of each separate LED emitter, those are fixed by the LEDs themselves.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Tabby:

You are about 3 years behind the times with LEDs. Suffice it that that is an eternity in the lighting business. And about covers your very nearly complete ignorance of what is in the market today.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tim R]

My yard light and my porch light are base down.

Every other lamp in my house is base up. I would think that is true for many people, probably most.

I have only a couple of incandescents left, most were converted to CFL and then as CFL got harder to find and LED cheaper, to LED.

If it's true these should not be mounted base up, then manufacturers have been way overselling the benefits. In particular the supposed longer life of the more expensive bulb does not really exist, if it's only true base down.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:17:28 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

My yard light and my porch light are base down.

Every other lamp in my house is base up. I would think that is true for many people, probably most.

I have only a couple of incandescents left, most were converted to CFL and then as CFL got harder to find and LED cheaper, to LED.

If it's true these should not be mounted base up, then manufacturers have been way overselling the benefits. In particular the supposed longer life of the more expensive bulb does not really exist, if it's only true base down.

Note that lamps designed for base-up applications such as spots and PARs are designed for base-up applications.

Otherwise, look carefully on the packaging for standard Edison-Base lamps. Most will either have an icon indicating base position(s) or some verbiage to that end. Those that do not are designed for base-down installation. Please also note that this goes all the way back to incandescent lamps, with early 3-way lamps marked for base position.

https://eyehortilux.com/grower-education/hid-lights/lamp-operating-positions/

Is one example specifically applicable to HID lamps.

Putting a lamp out of position is not immediately fatal, but it will shorten the life of the lamp.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:46:35 AM UTC-4, pf...@aol.com wrote:

Putting a lamp out of position is not immediately fatal, but it will shorten the life of the lamp.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Given that most applications are base up, would there be an advantage to choosing CFL vs LED?

My LED bulbs seem to have a heat sink. CFLs don't, I've taken a couple of failed ones apart to see what's inside. Is there gas inside the envelope of an LED, so it transfers some heat to the bulb shape?

Any heat source generates convection air flow, as long as the fixture isn't enclosed.

 

[Tim R]

Now I know what's inside an LED:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=inside+led+bulb&sid=26254C6E79A4645C0E2F4105785965D7&jsoncbid=0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dinside%2bled%2bbulb%26FORM%3dQSRE1&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=56A1E79FC2CF5978082256A1E79FC2CF59780822&FORM=WRVORC

 

On Wednesday, 29 May 2019 12:00:28 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

Tabby:

You are about 3 years behind the times with LEDs. Suffice it that that is an eternity in the lighting business. And about covers your very nearly complete ignorance of what is in the market today.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Er no, that is what's standard fare for domestic lighting.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 11:11:55 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> Er no, that is what's standard fare for domestic lighting.

Is GB really that far behind the rest of the world? Or is it just you?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 29 May 2019 16:46:30 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 11:11:55 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

Er no, that is what's standard fare for domestic lighting.

Is GB really that far behind the rest of the world? Or is it just you?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I'm just letting you know what's in the shops. Really I don't know what your problem is. And am not interested.


NT

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 May 2019 05:57:33 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>
wrote:

>Any heat source generates convection air flow, as long as the fixture isn't enclosed.

Yeah, that's a problem with all lighting. Most fixtures (luminaires)
are enclosed.

Here's an example of a melted MR16 5watt 12v LED lamp:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-01.jpg>
The lamp is the upper right is the way the lamp looked when new. The
wrinkled looking lamps are what happened when they were run in a badly
ventilated light fixture. Notice how much the plastic has shrunk when
over-heated. The PCB in the lower left is the back of a 60 LED array
and consists of 10ea 82ohm(?) resistors and a diode bridge. I haven't
bothered to decode how the LEDs are wired.

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-02.jpg>
The LED front view is in the upper right. The lamp in the upper left
in an MR16 incandescent light. It's made of an aluminized glass
reflector, aluminum frame, and ceramic base. I think it's rated at 20
watts. All were mounted with the base facing upwards.

I couldn't find the original listing, but I think it's the 60 LED (5
watts) version of this light:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/GU10-MR16-E26-E27-LED-Spotlight-Bulb-2835-SMD-4W-5W-6W-Lamp-Bright-110V-220V-12V/123255156639>

What happened was that I replaced about 20 incandescent MR16 lights on
some overhead track lighting. The light fixtures were miserably
ventilated and were killing 20w incandescent lamps at an alarming
rate. Replacing them with LED's was suppose to reduce the heat load.
Instead, it melted the plastic case instead of blowing the filament.
Burning down the house was averted because the house was full of hot
plastic smell and the smoke alarm was screaming. Oops.

Moral: The plastic materials used in most LED's are not as heat
resistant as the glass and ceramic materials used in incandescent and
CFL lighting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 11:36:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Moral: The plastic materials used in most LED's are not as heat
resistant as the glass and ceramic materials used in incandescent and
CFL lighting.

Thanks. There's some good info there. Now having looked at the guts of a number of LED lamps I can see where heat dissipation is more of a problem than I realized.

It's probably worse than with CFLs because of the concentrated area where the heat is produced, right?

What isn't obvious to me, having looked at the internals, is why the orientation would have more than a trivial effect. That heat looks pretty trapped no matter where the base faces.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 30 May 2019 05:59:08 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>
wrote:

It's probably worse than with CFLs because of the concentrated area
where the heat is produced, right?

Maybe. LED's are certainly more efficient.
Lumens/watt
LED 100
CFL 60
Incandescent 16
For equal amounts of light output (lumens), a CFL lamp takes 1.7 times
as much power to produce that light as does an LED. That's a big
difference, but not as spectacular as the 6.3 times jump from
incandescent to LED.

You're concerned about "heat" with measured in Joules where
1 joule = 1 watt/second
What I think you want is the final operating temperature of the device
to make sure that it doesn't melt plastic, degrade the LED's, destroy
electronic components, or set fire to the vicinity. The final
temperature has many parameters, most of which are NOT the same for
LED and CFL. For radiation loss, the surface area of a CFL lamp is
larger than the equivalent LED, and is therefore a more efficient heat
radiator. While the LED might waste fewer watts than the CFL light
heating up the room, the CFL will remove the heat from the lamp more
efficiently because it has a larger surface area. The LED compensates
for its smaller size by using aluminum heat sinks, while the CFL has a
larger thermal mass by using ceramics. Lots of other differences
making a general conclusion rather difficult.

What isn't obvious to me, having looked at the internals, is why the
orientation would have more than a trivial effect. That heat looks
pretty trapped no matter where the base faces.

Also maybe. The various lamps will move heat using conduction,
radiation, and convection. All three mechanisms are involved in
determining the final temperature of a lamp. In a light fixture, the
ability of move air through the fixture to remove the heat via
convective air currents is restricted. Without air flow the
temperature of the lamp will rise. If the air flow is uneven, there
will be hot spots on the lamp surface. Some lamps are more tolerant
to heating than others. My plastic case MR16 LED lamp was probably
the least tolerant. High temperature halogen incandescent lamps are
quite happy at much higher temperatures. LEDs lose half their light
output going from room temp (25C) to operating temperature (100C)
<https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/led/heat.asp>
which is why LED heat sinks are much better and larger than CFL which
can tolerate higher temperatures.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Tim R]

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 1:36:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Maybe. LED's are certainly more efficient.
Lumens/watt
LED 100
CFL 60
Incandescent 16
For equal amounts of light output (lumens), a CFL lamp takes 1.7 times
as much power to produce that light as does an LED. That's a big

I doubt that's true. Flash power, the first 3 seconds of operation for an LED, might be 100 lumens per watt, but I think 60 is more realistic.

LED and CFL. For radiation loss, the surface area of a CFL lamp is
larger than the equivalent LED, and is therefore a more efficient heat
radiator. While the LED might waste fewer watts than the CFL light
heating up the room, the CFL will remove the heat from the lamp more
efficiently because it has a larger surface area. The LED compensates

I'm not sure that's the case. Surface area makes a difference for both radiation and convection, but the temperature difference is what really drives the heat transfer. The plastic globe area of an LED equivalent lamp runs much hotter than the curlicues of a CFL. (I haven't measured, but that's what my fingers tell me when changing both while hot.) (and that's probably because an LED doesn't have vacuum inside the globe, it has air that's in contact with the emitters)

I don't think the majority of the heat dissipation from a CFL is from the curlicues. But if even a portion is, then the orientation will make no difference. Air will flow through them base up or down about the same.

 

On Thursday, 30 May 2019 18:36:48 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

You're concerned about "heat" with measured in Joules where
1 joule = 1 watt/second
What I think you want is the final operating temperature of the device
to make sure that it doesn't melt plastic, degrade the LED's, destroy
electronic components, or set fire to the vicinity. The final
temperature has many parameters, most of which are NOT the same for
LED and CFL. For radiation loss, the surface area of a CFL lamp is
larger than the equivalent LED, and is therefore a more efficient heat
radiator. While the LED might waste fewer watts than the CFL light
heating up the room, the CFL will remove the heat from the lamp more
efficiently because it has a larger surface area. The LED compensates
for its smaller size by using aluminum heat sinks, while the CFL has a
larger thermal mass by using ceramics. Lots of other differences
making a general conclusion rather difficult.

What isn't obvious to me, having looked at the internals, is why the
orientation would have more than a trivial effect. That heat looks
pretty trapped no matter where the base faces.

Also maybe. The various lamps will move heat using conduction,
radiation, and convection. All three mechanisms are involved in
determining the final temperature of a lamp. In a light fixture, the
ability of move air through the fixture to remove the heat via
convective air currents is restricted. Without air flow the
temperature of the lamp will rise. If the air flow is uneven, there
will be hot spots on the lamp surface. Some lamps are more tolerant
to heating than others. My plastic case MR16 LED lamp was probably
the least tolerant. High temperature halogen incandescent lamps are
quite happy at much higher temperatures. LEDs lose half their light
output going from room temp (25C) to operating temperature (100C)
https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/led/heat.asp
which is why LED heat sinks are much better and larger than CFL which
can tolerate higher temperatures.

Heat radiation is not significant at LED operating temp. Ditto for most of a CFL, but the end filaments do run hot.

All heat produced by both does get dissipated, it can't be trapped else the thing would get endlessly hotter & self destruct.

Why does orientation matter? With a 20w CFL, the ballast silicon is vulnerable to high temps. Ballast down it gets cool air flowing slowly upward past it. Ballast up it gets hot air past it, reducing life expectancy. The tube OTOH doesn't care either way.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

The Dubai Lamp range is comprised of four LED bulbs, each of which is available in “cool daylight” and “warm white” colors. There’s a 1-W, 200-lm E14 candle bulb, 400-lm E27 classic bulb and a 600-lm E27 classic bulb. Philips says it designed the filament LED bulbs to replace 25-W, 40-W, and 60-W incandescent bulbs, respectively. The bulbs run off Dubai’s 220-240-V mains voltage.

The above article is from very nearly two years ago. 150 - 175 l/W lamps are common in the commercial market, and readily available in to consumers with a just a bit of effort. A bit more costly, perhaps - but if one is in a region where the Utility is subsidizing prices, you may not notice.

That Home Depot or whatever passes for a Big-Box store at whatever location will not be selling either the latest, nor certainly not cutting-edge technology. They WILL be selling whatever may be mass-produced at the lowest cost with the highest margins.

Most of the discussions here are based on assumptions that are - at least - three years out of date.

Suffice it to understand:

LED Lamp drivers get HOT. These are drivers, not ballasts.
The amount of heat generated is in direct proportion to the amount of light generated as function of emitting surface. Linear emitters

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41yQl0egsTL.jpg

spread the emitter heat out, and allow (relatively) tiny drivers making not-much heat. Most of these lamps are also "universal" inasmuch as they may be run in any position. And, their lumens-per-watt is not massive, either.

Point-source emitters such as the CREE XHP35 will make up to 706 lumens at 350 ma. - which translates to 183 lumens per watt. Really. And that was introduced in 2018, and is commonly found in your MagLite, if you want a "real world" application. It runs at 150C at the junction - which is tiny, so that heat is easily managed. And as it is a direct DC device, there is no separate driver in a flashlight application. In a lamp application, that driver gets quite complex as that same emitter may run anywhere from 5500K with a CRI of 50 to 2700K with a CRI of 90.

The technology is still evolving. And it is NOT where it was even a year ago.

Tabby, for the record, you give us all a deeper understanding of the term "invincible ignorance". Thank you for that!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Friday, 31 May 2019 13:12:03 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

The Dubai Lamp range is comprised of four LED bulbs, each of which is available in “cool daylight” and “warm white” colors. There’s a 1-W, 200-lm E14 candle bulb, 400-lm E27 classic bulb and a 600-lm E27 classic bulb. Philips says it designed the filament LED bulbs to replace 25-W, 40-W, and 60-W incandescent bulbs, respectively. The bulbs run off Dubai’s 220-240-V mains voltage.

The above article is from very nearly two years ago. 150 - 175 l/W lamps are common in the commercial market, and readily available in to consumers with a just a bit of effort. A bit more costly, perhaps - but if one is in a region where the Utility is subsidizing prices, you may not notice.

That Home Depot or whatever passes for a Big-Box store at whatever location will not be selling either the latest, nor certainly not cutting-edge technology. They WILL be selling whatever may be mass-produced at the lowest cost with the highest margins.

Most of the discussions here are based on assumptions that are - at least - three years out of date.

Suffice it to understand:

LED Lamp drivers get HOT. These are drivers, not ballasts.
The amount of heat generated is in direct proportion to the amount of light generated as function of emitting surface. Linear emitters

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41yQl0egsTL.jpg

spread the emitter heat out, and allow (relatively) tiny drivers making not-much heat. Most of these lamps are also "universal" inasmuch as they may be run in any position. And, their lumens-per-watt is not massive, either.

Point-source emitters such as the CREE XHP35 will make up to 706 lumens at 350 ma. - which translates to 183 lumens per watt. Really. And that was introduced in 2018, and is commonly found in your MagLite, if you want a "real world" application. It runs at 150C at the junction - which is tiny, so that heat is easily managed. And as it is a direct DC device, there is no separate driver in a flashlight application. In a lamp application, that driver gets quite complex as that same emitter may run anywhere from 5500K with a CRI of 50 to 2700K with a CRI of 90.

The technology is still evolving. And it is NOT where it was even a year ago.

Tabby, for the record, you give us all a deeper understanding of the term "invincible ignorance". Thank you for that!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

They may be available, but they're not what's in the shops, so not what you find in people's homes. As I said. That you think a driver/ballast produces more heat than the LEDs borders on funny.


NT

 

[Lucifer]

On Wed, 29 May 2019 20:36:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 29 May 2019 05:57:33 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com
wrote:

Any heat source generates convection air flow, as long as the fixture isn't enclosed.

Yeah, that's a problem with all lighting. Most fixtures (luminaires)
are enclosed.

Here's an example of a melted MR16 5watt 12v LED lamp:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-01.jpg
The lamp is the upper right is the way the lamp looked when new. The
wrinkled looking lamps are what happened when they were run in a badly
ventilated light fixture. Notice how much the plastic has shrunk when
over-heated. The PCB in the lower left is the back of a 60 LED array
and consists of 10ea 82ohm(?) resistors and a diode bridge. I haven't
bothered to decode how the LEDs are wired.

http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-02.jpg
The LED front view is in the upper right. The lamp in the upper left
in an MR16 incandescent light. It's made of an aluminized glass
reflector, aluminum frame, and ceramic base. I think it's rated at 20
watts. All were mounted with the base facing upwards.

Download all 1518 jpegs using
wget.exe -nd -r -A jpg http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 30 May 2019 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>
wrote:

On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 1:36:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Maybe. LED's are certainly more efficient.
Lumens/watt
LED 100
CFL 60
Incandescent 16
For equal amounts of light output (lumens), a CFL lamp takes 1.7 times
as much power to produce that light as does an LED. That's a big

I doubt that's true. Flash power, the first 3 seconds of operation
for an LED, might be 100 lumens per watt, but I think 60 is more realistic.

That's correct, if you include:
1. Losses through any lenses or reflectors.
2. Losses in the switching power supply.
3. Losses in any power factor correction circuitry.
4. AC power is power factor corrected.

Easy enough to measure. I have enough junk from my flashlight
tinkering to measure lumens, but not with any great accuracy. Here's
how I do it with flashlights, bicycle headlights, spot lights, and any
light that generates a round spot on a wall.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/rec.bicycles.tech/UJdJQFTDgl8/NgOZUloVCwAJ>

I found new LED "flood" light in my collection.
<https://www.feit.com/products/bulbs/flood-and-spot/led_lampsreflectorr_ledsrr_and_brbr30-927-led-can/>
750 lumens 12.5w
Notice that there's plastic diffuser in front of the LEDs.

Plugging it into my Kill-A-Watt watt-guesser, I measure:
12watts 15VA 0.78PF (power factor)
which seems about right.
Luminous Efficacy = 750lumens / 12watts = 63 lumens/watt
So, you're correct if I include all the losses.

However, the numbers I provided were for the raw LED at room
temperature and does NOT include all the losses.

Might as well grind the numbers for CFL.
I found one of these in my collection:
<http://www.greenliteusa.com/en/lights/1684-26w-t2-ultra-mini-spiral.html>
1700 lumens 26 watts
Measuring with the Kill-a-Watt meter:
26watts 37VA 0.70PF
Luminous Efficacy = 1700lumens / 26watts = 65 lum/w

Hmmm... looks like the LED (with the diffuser) is almost as bad as
CFL. I suspect the diffuser loss is what's causing the lower efficacy
for the LED, but I don't have LED bulb handy to prove it. I'll see if
I can find or borrow one, at least with a glass lens, not plastic.
According to this chart:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency>
the LED floodlight should have been about 100 lum/W.

Surface area makes a difference for both radiation and convection, but
the temperature difference is what really drives the heat transfer.
The plastic globe area of an LED equivalent lamp runs much hotter than
the curlicues of a CFL. (I haven't measured, but that's what my
fingers tell me when changing both while hot.) (and that's probably
because an LED doesn't have vacuum inside the globe, it has air
that's in contact with the emitters)

Temperature (C or F) is not the same as heat (calories) which is not
the same power (watts) which is not the same as energy (joules or
watts/second). Also, there are several different types of
efficiencies and efficacy:
"Energy Efficiency of White LEDs" (2009)
<https://www.fcgov.com/utilities/img/site_specific/uploads/led-efficiency.pdf>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy#Lighting_efficiency>
Overall luminous Overall luminous
efficacy lum/W efficiency
LED screw base lamp (120 V) Up to 102 Up to 14.9%
9- 32 W compact fluorescent 46 - 75 8 - 11.45%
(with ballast)

Kinda looks like the LED produces about twice the light output of the
CFL, for the same amount of input power. However, my measurements say
they're about the same.

>I don't think the majority of the heat dissipation from a CFL is from the curlicues. But if even a portion is, then the orientation will make no difference. Air will flow through them base up or down about the same.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

They are found in both our houses. That you wish to make a virtue of ignorance is what is funny in a sad sort of way.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA