Car Alternator as Human Powered Generator

"Mjolinor" <mjolinor@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:5aLuc.1465$Zo1.226@newsfe6-gui.server.ntli.net:

Power is greatly diminished for a variety of reasons when the engine is
running backwards. The injectors running backwards? Many injectors
are operated by a cam and pushrod.

Here is a diagram that shows the 2 cycle diesel engine in action.

http://www.marinediesels.co.uk/


That moving diagram is wrong. An engine like that wouldn't run unless
there is a supercharger on it providing greater than atmoshperic
pressure in the crankcase. The primary inlet should be closed by some
means as the piston starts to descend.
Click to expand...
You are correct. But since every Detroit Diesel engine has a supercharger
aka blower, that resolves that issue.

r



--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
 
Mjolinor wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:40BAFF88.3B1E@armory.com...
Mjolinor wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:40BAD4E9.F55@armory.com...
Rich.Andrews wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40BAA58A.2868@armory.com:

Rich.Andrews wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40B968B1.55B9@armory.com:

Rich.Andrews wrote:

Anyway, the truck featured a Cummins 6 cylinder diesel engine
similar to the GMC 671 series diesel engine. It had similar
displacement, (about 71 cu inches per cylinder), and 6
cylinders.
Of course the Cummins did not have a supercharger like the
GMC,
but
since the GMC is a 2 cycle diesel, it has to have a
supercharger.
Anyway the engine was idling and when I applied 12 volts to
the
rotor of the alternator with it's output shunted directly to
ground,
the engine stalled and stopped almost as if one had shut off
the
fuel. Yes, the fuel shutoff valve was bypassed just to make
sure
there was no doubt that this was NOT a rigged demo.
--------------------
Why is this surprising?? You just invented an electric brake!


If you want another unbelieveable true story, let me tell you
about
the time I fired up a GMC engine in a International truck and
it
started running backwards. Smoke was pouring out the intake
and
it
lacked all manner of power. Reverse was forward and forward
gear
was reverse. Once I figured out what was going on, I shut it
off,
restarted and everything was fine.

r
-------------------
How was it running backwards? The 4-stroke cycle doesn't permit
this!
Sounds like an urban legend. Do you mean the starter turned it
backwards, why was the bettery reversed?

-Steve

It is not an urban legend. I was there. I started it, I tried
to
drive it. The year was circa 1975. It was a cold day with snow
on
the ground.
The foremans last name was Fang. Had efficiency experts come
there
once. They worked for a company called Proudfoot. No urban
legend
here.

All of the GMC engines that I have ever worked with are 2 cycle
engines. That includes their very large locomotive and marine
engines.
(Yes I worked for Electro-motive for a while as a Locomotive
Electrician) That also includes their 53 series engine which
boasts
53
cubic inches displacement per cylinder. That little workhorse is
pretty amazing. That particular engine was used in a piece of
equiment
commonly called a Straddle-Buggy. Made by Hi-Jack? Corp who has
offices in Hazel Crest IL. The tires used on that bit of equiment
were
used commercial aircraft tires. I digress, but GM's supercharged
and
turbocharged (yes, both at once) 6 and 8 cylinder models are
rather
special too.

The engine in question was a GMC engine. A series 871 if memory
serves
me right. If it wasn't a 871 it was a 671. (we had 1671 series
as
well..16 cylinders at 71 cubic inches per cylinder. See Euclid
R-50.)
What happened was that the starter was not engaged for the proper
length of time and the resultant "kickback" had enough energy to
start
the engine rotating and firing backwards. This mode of operation
is
not recommended due to the lack of oil pressure. Yes, I noticed
that
there was no oil pressure on the gauge, but since so many things
didn't
work when it was unknowingly run backwards, I figured that is why
it
was brought to the shop. It wasn't until I tried to move it and
the
vehicle travelled the opposite direction of what was clearly
marked
on
the transmission shift pattern plate, that I realized what had
happened. That was a few careers ago. Many things have changed
since
then.
------------------
How does that occur even with the 2-stroke cycle, doesn't it
require
that leave valves run backasswards? Or what kind of valve is that
silly thing, is this like those Detroit's that are 2-stroke?

-Steve

Steve,

I am not sure what your question is about valves. The exhaust
valves
are
just like any other engine valve operated from a camshaft.

Detroit Diesel is a 2 cycle diesel engine. Detroit Diesel is a
division
of General Motors. Hence the nick names of GMC Diesel and Jimmy
Diesel.
There are a few others but can't remember what they are. The GMC
engines
are designed to be worked hard. If you baby them, there will be all
manner of issues like oil consumption, fuel dilution, etc. There
are
many
divisions of GM Corp.
--------------------------
Okay, I had heard the Detroit had leaf air-input valves like a silly
lawn mower. If it has regular valves, still, doesn't the valve timing
prevent it from running backwards?

-Steve

Not all designs of two stroke engine will run backwards but some will. I
don't know why they should spew smoke out the inlet though.

They will run backwards if forced because the valves are timed by the
movement of the piston not the rotation of the crankshaft.
----------------
How in the world is THAT achieved?? Valves are timed by the crankshaft!
They fire on the exhaust-intake stroke?? How do they get enough pressure
with those valves open?


The piston goes
up and down the same irrespective of the rotation direction of the
crankshaft.
------------------
Yes, but the valves have to work the same.


The Villiers 11E two stroke engine used a reversing starter
motor to start the engine the other way round for reverse on the little
blue
disabled vehicles you used to see around the UK.
----------------------
Ah, I see, you just mean that it will "diesel" backwards a few turns
and that the injectors will also run backwards! That would explain it
somewhat, but I'm surprised you can actually get any power out of a
Detroit that way.

-Steve

The valves on a two stroke angine are not allways controlled by the
crankshaft. They are in some engines but in some engines the valves are
opened and closed as the piston moved past an opening in the side of the
cylinder. They tend not to be called "valves" but are more normally known as
"ports" but the job they do is to allow fuel air mix into the combustion
chamber and to allow burnt gases out of the exhaust. Because the opening and
closing of these "valves" is related to piston, not crankshaft, the engine
doesn't mind which way it goes and it has to be started in the right
direction.
------------
Click to expand...
Oh, so it is ported just like a 2-stroke motorcycle engine? Wow, how
do you get it to diesel with so much leakage??

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
 
If the Ale is served in "Pints" and drawn from a Hogs head, any
measure will do!

"Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:XSOuc.631660$oR5.302734@pd7tw3no...
: I assume you use the SFF system of units Stone-Furlong-
Fortnight :) which
: is quite legitimate. :)
: Don Kelly
: dhky@peeshaw.ca
: remove the urine to answer
 
"Scott Wiper" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.met> wrote in message news:47Quc.48620
"Zak" <jute@zak.invalid> wrote in message
Scott Wiper wrote:
[something about stepper motors]
Stepper motors have very low efficiency. I would look at a permanent
magnet based washing machine motor.

Thomas

Point taken... They are just to low current.

But back to the vertical areofoils on a rotating frame. These can generate
several horse power with wind from any direction and should be governed
because they can get up to very high speeds.

This type of windmill acts like heleicopter rotors blades when the pitch
them for auto rotation when they stop the engine or it fails. In this case
they are vertical and pitched to rotate in a circle even in light winds.

I've been poking around google, with both windmill and alternator in mind.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty much convinced that if/when I build a windmill, it'll be that
"Savonius" type: http://home.messiah.edu/~jebeneze/WindEnergy/WindEnergy.htm
is only one example.

But I've done a complete flip-flop as to my recommendation to use a car
alternator. I'm now convinced a car alternator is definitely not the way
to go, other than maybe proof-of-concept. They're terribly inefficient
(60%).
About the only thing going for them is cheap. But if I had no choice but to
pump a bicycle (or equiv) to, say, surf the net, I'd pay a little extra for
the best efficiency I could get. And I'd get the kind where you kick back.
"Recumbent," I think is the word. And add some kind of flywheel, so you
could catch your breath every now and then.

And yes, I think permanent magnets might almost be a no-brainer there. :)

Cheers!
Rich
 
"Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:XSOuc.631660$oR5.302734@pd7tw3no...
I assume you use the SFF system of units Stone-Furlong- Fortnight :)
which
is quite legitimate. :)
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
--

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:QRxuc.2319$MJ5.1603@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
X-No-Archive: yes
"Mjolinor" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "Mjolinor" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : > "Mjolinor" wrote
: > : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
:
: > : > : > "A prime example of true British Thinking!"
:
: > : > : > Cubic meters? How about cubic "cubits?"
: > : > : That one went over my head
: > : > A Cubit is about 18 inches, so a cubic Cubit would be
about a
: > : > quarter the volume of a cubic meter. (See conversions)
Click to expand...
Ah-hA! Gotcha! It's just under an eighth. (see my other post)

:)

Cheers!
Rich
 
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40BBD80B.4E25@armory.com:

Mjolinor wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:40BAFF88.3B1E@armory.com...
Mjolinor wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:40BAD4E9.F55@armory.com...
Rich.Andrews wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40BAA58A.2868@armory.com:

Rich.Andrews wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40B968B1.55B9@armory.com:

Rich.Andrews wrote:

Anyway, the truck featured a Cummins 6 cylinder diesel
engine similar to the GMC 671 series diesel engine. It
had similar displacement, (about 71 cu inches per
cylinder), and 6
cylinders.
Of course the Cummins did not have a supercharger like
the
GMC,
but
since the GMC is a 2 cycle diesel, it has to have a
supercharger.
Anyway the engine was idling and when I applied 12 volts
to
the
rotor of the alternator with it's output shunted directly
to
ground,
the engine stalled and stopped almost as if one had shut
off
the
fuel. Yes, the fuel shutoff valve was bypassed just to
make
sure
there was no doubt that this was NOT a rigged demo.
--------------------
Why is this surprising?? You just invented an electric
brake!


If you want another unbelieveable true story, let me tell
you
about
the time I fired up a GMC engine in a International truck
and
it
started running backwards. Smoke was pouring out the
intake
and
it
lacked all manner of power. Reverse was forward and
forward
gear
was reverse. Once I figured out what was going on, I shut
it
off,
restarted and everything was fine.

r
-------------------
How was it running backwards? The 4-stroke cycle doesn't
permit
this!
Sounds like an urban legend. Do you mean the starter
turned it backwards, why was the bettery reversed?

-Steve

It is not an urban legend. I was there. I started it, I
tried
to
drive it. The year was circa 1975. It was a cold day with
snow
on
the ground.
The foremans last name was Fang. Had efficiency experts
come
there
once. They worked for a company called Proudfoot. No urban
legend
here.

All of the GMC engines that I have ever worked with are 2
cycle engines. That includes their very large locomotive and
marine
engines.
(Yes I worked for Electro-motive for a while as a Locomotive
Electrician) That also includes their 53 series engine
which
boasts
53
cubic inches displacement per cylinder. That little
workhorse is pretty amazing. That particular engine was
used in a piece of
equiment
commonly called a Straddle-Buggy. Made by Hi-Jack? Corp who
has offices in Hazel Crest IL. The tires used on that bit of
equiment
were
used commercial aircraft tires. I digress, but GM's
supercharged
and
turbocharged (yes, both at once) 6 and 8 cylinder models are
rather
special too.

The engine in question was a GMC engine. A series 871 if
memory
serves
me right. If it wasn't a 871 it was a 671. (we had 1671
series
as
well..16 cylinders at 71 cubic inches per cylinder. See
Euclid
R-50.)
What happened was that the starter was not engaged for the
proper length of time and the resultant "kickback" had
enough energy to
start
the engine rotating and firing backwards. This mode of
operation
is
not recommended due to the lack of oil pressure. Yes, I
noticed
that
there was no oil pressure on the gauge, but since so many
things
didn't
work when it was unknowingly run backwards, I figured that
is why
it
was brought to the shop. It wasn't until I tried to move it
and
the
vehicle travelled the opposite direction of what was clearly
marked
on
the transmission shift pattern plate, that I realized what
had happened. That was a few careers ago. Many things have
changed
since
then.
------------------
How does that occur even with the 2-stroke cycle, doesn't it
require
that leave valves run backasswards? Or what kind of valve is
that silly thing, is this like those Detroit's that are
2-stroke?

-Steve

Steve,

I am not sure what your question is about valves. The exhaust
valves
are
just like any other engine valve operated from a camshaft.

Detroit Diesel is a 2 cycle diesel engine. Detroit Diesel is a
division
of General Motors. Hence the nick names of GMC Diesel and
Jimmy
Diesel.
There are a few others but can't remember what they are. The
GMC
engines
are designed to be worked hard. If you baby them, there will
be all manner of issues like oil consumption, fuel dilution,
etc. There
are
many
divisions of GM Corp.
--------------------------
Okay, I had heard the Detroit had leaf air-input valves like a
silly lawn mower. If it has regular valves, still, doesn't the
valve timing prevent it from running backwards?

-Steve

Not all designs of two stroke engine will run backwards but some
will. I don't know why they should spew smoke out the inlet though.

They will run backwards if forced because the valves are timed by
the movement of the piston not the rotation of the crankshaft.
----------------
How in the world is THAT achieved?? Valves are timed by the
crankshaft! They fire on the exhaust-intake stroke?? How do they get
enough pressure with those valves open?


The piston goes
up and down the same irrespective of the rotation direction of the
crankshaft.
------------------
Yes, but the valves have to work the same.


The Villiers 11E two stroke engine used a reversing starter
motor to start the engine the other way round for reverse on the
little
blue
disabled vehicles you used to see around the UK.
----------------------
Ah, I see, you just mean that it will "diesel" backwards a few turns
and that the injectors will also run backwards! That would explain it
somewhat, but I'm surprised you can actually get any power out of a
Detroit that way.

-Steve

The valves on a two stroke angine are not allways controlled by the
crankshaft. They are in some engines but in some engines the valves are
opened and closed as the piston moved past an opening in the side of
the cylinder. They tend not to be called "valves" but are more normally
known as "ports" but the job they do is to allow fuel air mix into the
combustion chamber and to allow burnt gases out of the exhaust. Because
the opening and closing of these "valves" is related to piston, not
crankshaft, the engine doesn't mind which way it goes and it has to be
started in the right direction.
------------
Oh, so it is ported just like a 2-stroke motorcycle engine? Wow, how
do you get it to diesel with so much leakage??

-Steve
Click to expand...
What leakage?

If you are referring to blowby, there isn't a lot else it wouldn't run
very well, if at all.

How many rings can you count in this picture?

http://www.tejascoach.com/Images/SMpistonliner.JPG
the text to go with the picture is revealing as well.

http://www.tejascoach.com/ddcoil.html

Allegedly the most powerful engine in the world....and it is a 2 cycle
engine as well. http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

I wonder what they use to torque the heads down with given the size of the
head studs.

How many rings does each piston have? Looks like 5 to me.

r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.
 
"Rich.Andrews" <spmaway@ylhoo.com> wrote in message
"Mjolinor" <mjolinor@hotmail.com> wrote in
Power is greatly diminished for a variety of reasons when the engine is
running backwards. The injectors running backwards? Many injectors
are operated by a cam and pushrod.
Here is a diagram that shows the 2 cycle diesel engine in action.
http://www.marinediesels.co.uk/
That moving diagram is wrong. An engine like that wouldn't run unless
there is a supercharger on it providing greater than atmoshperic
pressure in the crankcase. The primary inlet should be closed by some
means as the piston starts to descend.
You are correct. But since every Detroit Diesel engine has a supercharger
aka blower, that resolves that issue.
Well, the presence of a blower would make it a little hard to run it
Click to expand...
backwards, wouldn't it? It'd make it a sucker, as it were.

Cheers!
Rich
 
"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> wrote in message
news:I0Uuc.24965$g15.17948@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
"Rich.Andrews" <spmaway@ylhoo.com> wrote in message
"Mjolinor" <mjolinor@hotmail.com> wrote in
Power is greatly diminished for a variety of reasons when the engine
is
running backwards. The injectors running backwards? Many injectors
are operated by a cam and pushrod.
Here is a diagram that shows the 2 cycle diesel engine in action.
http://www.marinediesels.co.uk/
That moving diagram is wrong. An engine like that wouldn't run unless
there is a supercharger on it providing greater than atmoshperic
pressure in the crankcase. The primary inlet should be closed by some
means as the piston starts to descend.
You are correct. But since every Detroit Diesel engine has a
supercharger
aka blower, that resolves that issue.
Well, the presence of a blower would make it a little hard to run it
backwards, wouldn't it? It'd make it a sucker, as it were.
Click to expand...
If it were a crank driven supercharger it would but if it were a turbo
charger it wouldn't I've never seen one of these "American" engines so I
don't know what they have.
 
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