Can anyone explain how this battery charger works?...

[Rick C]

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:42:20 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:39:08 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:59:33 -0000, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 22:47:41 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 21:56:55 -0000, jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 9:16:58 PM UTC, Custos Custodum wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:52:31 -0800 (PST), jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk
wrote:
On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 8:33:42 PM UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

What else might that yellow thing be, other than a capacitor?

A thermistor or a VDR, to provide current limiting.
Regarding operation, power diodes tend to have a higher Vf than small
signal diodes or transistor junctions, so once the diode goes into
conduction it produces a large enough voltage to turn on the
transistor and the red LED, indicating that charging is taking place.
The green LED merely indicates that power is applied to the circuit.

My (probably futile) hope was that he might answer it himself,
or at least try to...

I didn\'t expect two completely different devices to look identical. So how the fuck am I supposed to tell which one is?

Try an ohmmeter.
Not so easy when in the middle of a big circuit.

One end of it is connected only to the battery which I believe you can remove.

In this case yes, but I was talking generically in other larger circuits where the capacitor/limiter could be in the middle of loads of other components.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
Platt) wrote:

In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

I don\'t believe that it could.

My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
disc. I suspect that it\'s not a capacitor at all, but is a
positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a \"soft fuse\". If the
output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a \"hold current\" (which
they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
temperature) and a \"trip current\" which will heat them enough to cause
them to limit the current.

Since we don\'t have a profile view of this component and can\'t see
the markings, I can\'t tell for sure.

It is called \"resonant charging\" and the current is pulses - so it
DOES flow through the capacitors

see
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

Or it could be a TPS as described here:

A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
= V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
(2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
unplugged.

see
https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

But nowadays they\'re electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

Don\'t forget to check my spelling.
I prefer cheap to safe.

Yes, exactly. That\'s why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, \"nowadays they\'re electronic\" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:54:02 -0000, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

On 14/02/2022 00:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell
makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

They are vastly different.

Do they not both have a very low internal resistance? Therefore connecting a 10V battery to a 12V charger makes too much current flow?

 

[Rod Speed]

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote

williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote
Commander Kinsey wrote

Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, oneshorted cell
makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

They are vastly different.

Do they not both have a very low internal resistance? Therefore
connecting a 10V battery to a 12V charger makes too much current flow?

Nope. a stupid car battery charger like that one is essentially limiting
the current
so the battery voltage doesn\'t determine the current in the too much sense.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?

Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

[other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

 

[Fredxx]

On 14/02/2022 03:04, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is
only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass
DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid
storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m
assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC
Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I
thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted
battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a
current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells
instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried
charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working
cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t
look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The
input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells.
It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement
NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting
current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and
diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just
keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is
charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more
than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED
is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could
be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the
resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two
resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where
power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all
the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max
voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V
instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short
or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell
makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE
SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?

Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

[other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may
be reading this in another group]
Oh, you use google groups.  My god man get a newsreader program.

Why would anyone want to read your posts?

You ask stupid questions and don\'t understand the replies.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail..com> wrote:

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, exactly. That\'s why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, \"nowadays they\'re electronic\" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
I\'m not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
A typical wall wart isn\'t and doesn\'t regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive\'s tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
I\'ve watched a lot of his stuff, but I\'ve never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
Mind you I\'m not scared of electricity.

Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
I\'ve had several 240V shocks. That\'s all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

Wow! It\'s not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn\'t have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
I\'ve had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it\'s quite funny. Not painful at all.
What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
You\'re the ignorant one, it\'s 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I\'m not a girl.

Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,

Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.

> you don\'t understand the difference between a \"breaker\" and a GFCI.

They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they\'re part of the same unit.

> A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.

That is very unlikely to happen, although I\'ve done it and I\'m still here.

> Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.

They also shriek at the slightest pain.

 

[server]

Peeler <trolltrap@valid.invalid> wrote in news:ZbgOJ.1024713
$X81f.793710@usenetxs.com:

> <FLUSH

GO AWAY, CHILD.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:08:31 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip..org> wrote:

On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, exactly. That\'s why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, \"nowadays they\'re electronic\" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
current.
They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

\"A few watts\" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you\'d get an explosion.

the phone \"charger\" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
that\'s why it hasn\'t exploded yet.

Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren\'t enclosed in a phone.

The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
significantly less efficient.

So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

It doesn\'t save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn\'t be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
less material, also they can sell more if they don\'t last too long.

They won\'t sell more. They either get them returned costing them money, or the customer never uses that brand again.

 

[server]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 02:56:31 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:42:20 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:39:08 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:59:33 -0000, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 22:47:41 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 21:56:55 -0000, jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 9:16:58 PM UTC, Custos Custodum wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:52:31 -0800 (PST), jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk
wrote:
On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 8:33:42 PM UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

What else might that yellow thing be, other than a capacitor?

A thermistor or a VDR, to provide current limiting.
Regarding operation, power diodes tend to have a higher Vf than small
signal diodes or transistor junctions, so once the diode goes into
conduction it produces a large enough voltage to turn on the
transistor and the red LED, indicating that charging is taking place.
The green LED merely indicates that power is applied to the circuit.

My (probably futile) hope was that he might answer it himself,
or at least try to...

I didn\'t expect two completely different devices to look identical. So how the fuck am I supposed to tell which one is?

Try an ohmmeter.
Not so easy when in the middle of a big circuit.

One end of it is connected only to the battery which I believe you can remove.

In this case yes, but I was talking generically in other larger circuits where the capacitor/limiter could be in the middle of loads of other components.

You could

Think hard about it

or

Ohm out all around it and solve the puzzle

or

Unsolder and measure

or

Maybe look up the part number, if it\'s public. Lots of part numbers
aren\'t.





--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[server]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 21:55:04 +0100, Peeler <trolltrap@valid.invalid>
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:33:34 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (aka \"Commander Kinsey\",
\"James Wilkinson\", \"Steven Wanker\",\"Bruce Farquar\", \"Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore\'s latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again

He asked a reasonable, on-topic for S.E.D. question.

It may be a PTC thermistor current limiter.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[Rod Speed]

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote
On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is
only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass
DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid
storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m
assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC Fuse
- a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought
was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted battery from
being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a
current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells
instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried
charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells?
The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t look
right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The
input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells.
It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement
NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting
current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and
diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just
keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is
charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than
a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is
turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be
more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor
to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors
and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes
in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all
the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max
voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V
instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short
or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell
makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE
SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?

Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

In case the jumper leads going to the battery being charged are shorted
together, stupid.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, exactly. That\'s why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, \"nowadays they\'re electronic\" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
I\'m not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
A typical wall wart isn\'t and doesn\'t regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive\'s tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
I\'ve watched a lot of his stuff, but I\'ve never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
Mind you I\'m not scared of electricity.

Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
I\'ve had several 240V shocks. That\'s all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

Wow! It\'s not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn\'t have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
I\'ve had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it\'s quite funny. Not painful at all.
What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
You\'re the ignorant one, it\'s 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I\'m not a girl.

Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
you don\'t understand the difference between a \"breaker\" and a GFCI.
They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they\'re part of the same unit.

Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
That is very unlikely to happen, although I\'ve done it and I\'m still here..

Unfortunately...

Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
They also shriek at the slightest pain.

Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

I\'m done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Allison]

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
================================
Peeler <trol...@valid.invalid>

FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore\'s latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again


He asked a reasonable, on-topic for S.E.D. question.

** No he didn\'t.
Next he posted a pile of hostile & absurd bullshit.

Just like YOU do.

> It may be a PTC thermistor current limiter.

** No fooling.......................

No one here ever ever though of that - did they ?

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 10:04:23 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?
Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

[other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit. Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current, you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total. Yeah, that\'s going to push some unreasonable current though the power pack, so the fuse is needed.

Exactly which quirks where those?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 11:20:37 PM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
================================
Peeler <trol...@valid.invalid

FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore\'s latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again


He asked a reasonable, on-topic for S.E.D. question.
** No he didn\'t.
Next he posted a pile of hostile & absurd bullshit.

Just like YOU do.
It may be a PTC thermistor current limiter.
** No fooling.......................

No one here ever ever though of that - did they ?

Yeah, I don\'t know why anyone would think it was acceptable to post \"hostile bullshit\" in s.e.d.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 03:13:08 -0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

On 14/02/2022 03:04, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander
Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is
only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass
DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid
storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m
assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC
Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I
thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted
battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a
current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells
instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried
charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working
cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t
look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The
input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells.
It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement
NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting
current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and
diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just
keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is
charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more
than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED
is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could
be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the
resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two
resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where
power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all
the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max
voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V
instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short
or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell
makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE
SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?

Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

[other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may
be reading this in another group]
Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

Why would anyone want to read your posts?

You ask stupid questions and don\'t understand the replies.

I understood the answer perfectly, what makes you think I didn\'t?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 04:30:57 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 10:04:23 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

Maybe it\'s an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I\'m assuming you drew the schematic.
I\'ve learned from someone on Quora that it\'s actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it\'s to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

It won\'t do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
I\'m not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn\'t look right to me.
It\'s the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It\'s worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I\'m converting the battery packs to LiIon.

My point is this circuit isn\'t setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it\'s a 5 hour charge, it won\'t harm the battery to just keep going.
It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That\'s all they do is indicate the presence of power.
Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
Ah, you beat me to it.
That\'s why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn\'t enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

Is that clear?
Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

[other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit. Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current, you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total. Yeah, that\'s going to push some unreasonable current though the power pack, so the fuse is needed.

Since the battery pack, like any cordless drill, has a semicircle shaped connector, it cannot possibly be connected backwards.

> Exactly which quirks where those?

Who said anything about quirks?

 

[Phil Allison]

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:

TOTAL ASSHOLE & FUCKWIT
========================

He asked a reasonable, on-topic for S.E.D. question.
** No he didn\'t.
Next he posted a pile of hostile & absurd bullshit.

Just like YOU do.
It may be a PTC thermistor current limiter.
** No fooling.......................

No one here ever ever though of that - did they ?

Yeah, I don\'t know why anyone would think it was acceptable to post \"hostile bullshit\" in s.e.d.

** So WHY do * YOU * ALL THE TIME ?????

Rhetorical Q - fuckhead