California’s EV charging network could use a jolt, a trip down I-5 shows...

[Jeff Layman]

On 24/09/2022 02:39, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV\'s get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
But that wasn\'t what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn\'t be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn\'t been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he\'d probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV\'s batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle\'s batteries?

Why do people who don\'t drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What\'s the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don\'t want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren\'t going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.

Who\'s complaining? I was quoting from an article written by someone who
had experienced an issue - or issues - while on a 400-mile EV drive. I
took one point and extrapolated to an entirely reasonable situation
where if he\'d been 9 miles on he\'d have run out of power. I didn\'t see
Ed Lee\'s post, but according to Bill Sloman, Ed had suffered a very
similar situation, and required a tow truck to get him out of it - at a
price.

I actually like the idea that battery-powered EVs will be the norm *one
day*. After all, I can\'t see an autonomous petrol-powered car being
developed, so by the time I\'m too old to drive safely, I\'ll appreciate
getting in to a car and telling it the destination, rather than me
driving it there.

--

Jeff

 

[Ed Lee]

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 12:46:20 AM UTC-7, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 24/09/2022 02:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV\'s get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
But that wasn\'t what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn\'t be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn\'t been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he\'d probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV\'s batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle\'s batteries?

Why do people who don\'t drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What\'s the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don\'t want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren\'t going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.
Who\'s complaining? I was quoting from an article written by someone who
had experienced an issue - or issues - while on a 400-mile EV drive. I
took one point and extrapolated to an entirely reasonable situation
where if he\'d been 9 miles on he\'d have run out of power. I didn\'t see
Ed Lee\'s post, but according to Bill Sloman, Ed had suffered a very
similar situation, and required a tow truck to get him out of it - at a
price.

Yes, at the top of Frazer Mountain, nearby charger and/or tow trucks are 25 miles either way. Don\'t know about AAA, but Good Sam would charge $200 to $300 for 50 miles round-trip. They count driver round-trip, regardless of your actual towing distance.

I currently have 5 miles Good Sam coverage and 100 miles AAA. I will drop Good Sam when annual coverage is over.

 

[Jeff Layman]

On 26/09/2022 17:12, Ed Lee wrote:

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 12:46:20 AM UTC-7, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2022 02:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV\'s get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
But that wasn\'t what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn\'t be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn\'t been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he\'d probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV\'s batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle\'s batteries?

Why do people who don\'t drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What\'s the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don\'t want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren\'t going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.
Who\'s complaining? I was quoting from an article written by someone who
had experienced an issue - or issues - while on a 400-mile EV drive. I
took one point and extrapolated to an entirely reasonable situation
where if he\'d been 9 miles on he\'d have run out of power. I didn\'t see
Ed Lee\'s post, but according to Bill Sloman, Ed had suffered a very
similar situation, and required a tow truck to get him out of it - at a
price.

Yes, at the top of Frazer Mountain, nearby charger and/or tow trucks are 25 miles either way. Don\'t know about AAA, but Good Sam would charge $200 to $300 for 50 miles round-trip. They count driver round-trip, regardless of your actual towing distance.

I currently have 5 miles Good Sam coverage and 100 miles AAA. I will drop Good Sam when annual coverage is over.

Thanks for the clarification.

As you were at the top. couldn\'t you have \"freewheeled\" down using
regenerative braking to charge the battery? ;-)

--

Jeff

 

[Ed Lee]

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 10:14:00 AM UTC-7, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 26/09/2022 17:12, Ed Lee wrote:
On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 12:46:20 AM UTC-7, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2022 02:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV\'s get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
But that wasn\'t what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn\'t be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn\'t been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he\'d probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV\'s batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle\'s batteries?

Why do people who don\'t drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What\'s the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don\'t want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren\'t going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.
Who\'s complaining? I was quoting from an article written by someone who
had experienced an issue - or issues - while on a 400-mile EV drive. I
took one point and extrapolated to an entirely reasonable situation
where if he\'d been 9 miles on he\'d have run out of power. I didn\'t see
Ed Lee\'s post, but according to Bill Sloman, Ed had suffered a very
similar situation, and required a tow truck to get him out of it - at a
price.

Yes, at the top of Frazer Mountain, nearby charger and/or tow trucks are 25 miles either way. Don\'t know about AAA, but Good Sam would charge $200 to $300 for 50 miles round-trip. They count driver round-trip, regardless of your actual towing distance.

I currently have 5 miles Good Sam coverage and 100 miles AAA. I will drop Good Sam when annual coverage is over.
Thanks for the clarification.

As you were at the top. couldn\'t you have \"freewheeled\" down using
regenerative braking to charge the battery? ;-)

Yes, if you have at least 15 miles left. You can probably make it. I was going up the mountain from CA to NV. I was around 5 miles from the top and 12 miles from the bottom of the hill. I figured that i could not make it to the top; so, i turn around and return to the foot hill with still a few miles left.

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:46:20 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 24/09/2022 02:39, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:25:30 AM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/09/2022 04:55, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 12:30:38 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

If it takes 15x as long to charge an EV as it takes to gas up an IC
car, there is going to be a giant real estate problem.

Twaddle. Cars are parked 95% of the time, and most EV\'s get charged relatively slowing from regular mains sockets, not by fast chargers.
But that wasn\'t what the article was about. It was about the EV charging
experience during a 400 mile trip. I assume that sort of distance
wouldn\'t be particularly unusual in the USA or indeed Australia
(although it would be in the UK where I am).

What would have happened if the driver hadn\'t been able to find a
charging point at Interstate 5 at Frazier Mountain Park Road? Even then,
he could only get 9 miles of charge after a 75 minute wait. If he ran
out of petrol with an IC car, he\'d probably be able to get a lift to a
garage and buy a gallon can of petrol and take it back to his vehicle,
which would be enough to get him 30 miles or so to a garage and to fill
up. With an EV, the ironic option would be to get a service vehicle with
a pretty big IC-powered generator in the back, and wait an hour for it
to charge his EV\'s batteries sufficiently to get enough range to reach a
charging station. Or are there EV service vehicles with large batteries
in the back with which to charge the stranded EV vehicle\'s batteries?

Why do people who don\'t drive electric vehicles, get so wigged out by articles about how hard it is to charge electric vehicles???

What\'s the deal?

Most people who post in this group are old enough, that even with the 2035 mandate of some states, will never need to drive a BEV if they don\'t want to.

So why all the bellyaching? If you aren\'t going to drive a BEV, stop complaining about them. The industry and the charging infrastructure are not constants. They will grow and improve, so that, someday, if you live long enough to be forced to buy one, you may actually like driving a BEV... if you still have a license by then.
Who\'s complaining? I was quoting from an article written by someone who
had experienced an issue - or issues - while on a 400-mile EV drive. I
took one point and extrapolated to an entirely reasonable situation
where if he\'d been 9 miles on he\'d have run out of power. I didn\'t see
Ed Lee\'s post, but according to Bill Sloman, Ed had suffered a very
similar situation, and required a tow truck to get him out of it - at a
price.

Some guy, went on some trip and had X happen to him. That\'s pretty pointless. I have no idea why anyone would go on a trip, not knowing for certain they would be able to charge and reach their destination. I can\'t think of a reason why anyone would only get 9 miles in an hour and a quarter of charging. That\'s only 3 kW, 12 amps at 240V. I\'ve never seen or heard of a level 2 charger that lame. Even the units at 208V and 24 amps (free at the hospital) give 5 kW. The guy clearly had to shop around for such a low end charger. I also have no idea why the guy would run so low before charging up. So I\'m calling BS on this report. Just like the one where a reporter rented an EV in Chicago and drove, round trip to NO, I believe. They did the minimum to verify the chargers existed and were functioning.

It\'s not great that you have to work so hard to take trips in BEVs today. It won\'t be like that forever, but if you want reliable charging, buy (or rent) a Tesla. I never have these problems and I drove from DC to Houston two weeks after I bought the car in 2018, without any of these problems.

I actually like the idea that battery-powered EVs will be the norm *one
day*. After all, I can\'t see an autonomous petrol-powered car being
developed, so by the time I\'m too old to drive safely, I\'ll appreciate
getting in to a car and telling it the destination, rather than me
driving it there.

Why can\'t an ICE be autonomous? With an automatic transmission attached, you can barely tell what type of engine it has... well, until you punch it hard and hear nothing from the electric car. Over the last century, they have made amazing progress in ICE improvements, taming most of their problems.. All except the exhaust problem.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[boB]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point

In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.

Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

boB

 

[Don Y]

On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.

Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:

On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both. A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Don Y]

On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be
more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better
than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV
conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars.  If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t. You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods. Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!

Power lines don\'t worry about \"low overpasses\" or weight limits on roads.
Or, flood waters, high winds, etc. Power is restored to disaster
areas a lot quicker than fuel deliveries (of course, pumping that fuel
is kinda hard without POWER running to the pumping stations. oops!)

A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Wow, almost *8* minutes! So, we\'d need 8 trucks every hour, about
180 a day, 65,000 annually. Each spewing exhaust as they make their
deliveries. To replace that *one* power plant.

Palo Verde (here) is a 3.3GW plant serving ~4M people. So, 215,000
trucks to deliver that equivalent power -- one for every 20 people.
Day, night, rain, etc.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-09-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:

On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t. You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods. Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!

Don\'t be silly. They don\'t run a tanker to your door, but they also
don\'t run a 400kV power line to your home!

Power lines don\'t worry about \"low overpasses\" or weight limits on roads.
Or, flood waters, high winds, etc. Power is restored to disaster
areas a lot quicker than fuel deliveries (of course, pumping that fuel
is kinda hard without POWER running to the pumping stations. oops!)

A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Wow, almost *8* minutes! So, we\'d need 8 trucks every hour, about
180 a day, 65,000 annually. Each spewing exhaust as they make their
deliveries. To replace that *one* power plant.

Well, yes. Coal power plants used to have whole trains full of coal
every day. So?

Palo Verde (here) is a 3.3GW plant serving ~4M people. So, 215,000
trucks to deliver that equivalent power -- one for every 20 people.
Day, night, rain, etc.

You\'re confusing power and energy here. Try again.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 22:50:38 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.

Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

One small product pipeline moves multiples of the power of a giant HV
transmission line. NG enters my house through a tiny plastic tube,
much smaller than the electric lines. Much more reliable and cheaper
too.

I can gas up my car from 0 to 100% in 5 minutes. An equivalent
electric charge at home would take about a week... if California
allowed charging 24/7.

Chemicals pack a lot of energy. That\'s why tanks don\'t have rail guns.

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...
Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both. A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Jeroen Belleman

We will have a pretty good subjective answer when they start delivering fossil fuels to service stations using electric trucks. Give it a few years. It\'s not that much further out.

Of course some people here think there are far too many problems to solve to let this happen. You know, the ones with little imagination. The ones who have trouble brainstorming to find solutions. The rest of us seem to have no trouble picturing the future.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-09-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it
may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got
to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to
accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many
cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point



In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars.  If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t.  You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods.  Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!


Don\'t be silly. They don\'t run a tanker to your door, but they also
don\'t run a 400kV power line to your home!

And round here they _do too_ run a tanker to your house. Lots of folks
use oil heat, usually with a service contract so that the oil company
guarantees that your tank won\'t run dry, and they look after fixing your
furnace too.

Power lines don\'t worry about \"low overpasses\" or weight limits on roads.
Or, flood waters, high winds, etc.  Power is restored to disaster
areas a lot quicker than fuel deliveries (of course, pumping that fuel
is kinda hard without POWER running to the pumping stations.  oops!)

A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Wow, almost *8* minutes!  So, we\'d need 8 trucks every hour, about
180 a day, 65,000 annually.  Each spewing exhaust as they make their
deliveries.  To replace that *one* power plant.

Well, yes. Coal power plants used to have whole trains full of coal
every day. So?


Palo Verde (here) is a 3.3GW plant serving ~4M people.  So, 215,000
trucks to deliver that equivalent power -- one for every 20 people.
Day, night, rain, etc.

You\'re confusing power and energy here. Try again.

Jeroen Belleman

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 10:45:18 AM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-09-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t. You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods. Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!

Don\'t be silly. They don\'t run a tanker to your door, but they also
don\'t run a 400kV power line to your home!

No, they don\'t bring gasoline to your door. You have to drive to pick it up. Meet them \"halfway\", so to speak. That\'s the point. Electricity *is* brought to your home. No 400kV power lines because they aren\'t needed. What a silly idea.

Power lines don\'t worry about \"low overpasses\" or weight limits on roads.
Or, flood waters, high winds, etc. Power is restored to disaster
areas a lot quicker than fuel deliveries (of course, pumping that fuel
is kinda hard without POWER running to the pumping stations. oops!)

A single tanker truck full of fuel
delivers about as much usable energy as 450s of work of your
typical 1GW nuclear power plant. How this works out in terms
of convenience or cost of transport is not so easy to find.

Wow, almost *8* minutes! So, we\'d need 8 trucks every hour, about
180 a day, 65,000 annually. Each spewing exhaust as they make their
deliveries. To replace that *one* power plant.
Well, yes. Coal power plants used to have whole trains full of coal
every day. So?

Still do. It\'s a silly comparison. Some electric wires, or a wagon train of fuel trucks. No comparison. They put nuke plants far away from civilization because they are not considered safe. Then you talk about connecting them to civilization with a tanker truck train. You can\'t see the issue that electric wires solve here?

Palo Verde (here) is a 3.3GW plant serving ~4M people. So, 215,000
trucks to deliver that equivalent power -- one for every 20 people.
Day, night, rain, etc.
You\'re confusing power and energy here. Try again.

No, he\'s about right. I couldn\'t find a number for how much fuel a tanker can carry. The tank size is 11,500 gallons maximum, but they are limited by the gross weight. 10,000 gal is a good ball park number, or 60,000 lbs of fuel, giving 337 MWh. But in a car, that fuel is about a quarter to a third the efficiency of electricity, so more like 100 MWh. That\'s 6 minutes of a 1 GW nuclear plant output. So, 87,600 loads in a year, day, night, rain, snow... the mail must go on! No, wait, that\'s someone else. I wonder what the fuel efficiency of a tanker truck is? Certainly, that depends on the distance.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:19:47 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 22:50:38 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.

Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

One small product pipeline moves multiples of the power of a giant HV
transmission line. NG enters my house through a tiny plastic tube,
much smaller than the electric lines. Much more reliable and cheaper
too.

I can gas up my car from 0 to 100% in 5 minutes. An equivalent
electric charge at home would take about a week... if California
allowed charging 24/7.

Chemicals pack a lot of energy. That\'s why tanks don\'t have rail guns.

All those advantages of chemical fuel, yet you still have electricity. That\'s very odd.

How about we brainstorm some of these problems? See if we can find potential solutions?

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 12:09:17 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it
may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got
to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to
accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many
cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point



In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t. You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods. Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!


Don\'t be silly. They don\'t run a tanker to your door, but they also
don\'t run a 400kV power line to your home!
And round here they _do too_ run a tanker to your house. Lots of folks
use oil heat, usually with a service contract so that the oil company
guarantees that your tank won\'t run dry, and they look after fixing your
furnace too.

That is very disingenuous. An oil delivery truck is not a \"tanker\" truck. I guess it is by Phil\'s view of the world though.

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 9/27/2022 9:09 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:
On 9/27/2022 5:10 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-09-27 07:50, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be
more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way
better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a
total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on
the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars.  If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.
Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

Oh, well now, that isn\'t at all evident. There is extensive
infrastructure for both.

No, there isn\'t.  You can\'t, for example, drive a tanker full of
fuel through most residential neighborhoods.  Yet, damn near every home
has power lines run to it!


Don\'t be silly. They don\'t run a tanker to your door, but they also
don\'t run a 400kV power line to your home!

And round here they _do too_ run a tanker to your house.  Lots of folks use oil
heat, usually with a service contract so that the oil company guarantees that
your tank won\'t run dry, and they look after fixing your furnace too.

A tanker (of the size Jeroen is speaking) holds ~12000 gallons.
The \"oil man\" drives a tiny little thing that can\'t fill the 200G tanks
of more than a few homes. And, make several visits each heating season
(less frequently in the other months if you have oil-fired hot water)

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:19:47 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 22:50:38 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 9/26/2022 9:50 PM, boB wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

What a mess! Wonder what is causing the failures? Sounds like it may be more with connection issues than the hardware. They\'ve got to do way better than this if they expect to even come close to accommodating a total EV conversion- there are going to be so many cars trying to get on the chargers.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2022-09-22/boiling-point-californias-ev-charging-network-could-use-a-jolt-a-trip-down-i-5-shows-boiling-point


In the southern USA where the sun works, PV will be able to charge the
cars. If they need to be charged at night, then batteries will
eventually be able to help that energy time shift.

Make the electricity where you use it if possible.

Not that good in the north of course.

You can move electricity a lot easier than liquid fuels...

One small product pipeline moves multiples of the power of a giant HV
transmission line. NG enters my house through a tiny plastic tube,
much smaller than the electric lines. Much more reliable and cheaper
too.

I can gas up my car from 0 to 100% in 5 minutes. An equivalent
electric charge at home would take about a week... if California
allowed charging 24/7.

Chemicals pack a lot of energy. That\'s why tanks don\'t have rail guns.

All those advantages of chemical fuel, yet you still have electricity. That\'s very odd.

How about we brainstorm some of these problems? See if we can find potential solutions?

Your prime motivation is to insult, which makes you not very good at
brainstorming.

No thanks.

 

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 10:55:58 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:19:47 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

Chemicals pack a lot of energy. That\'s why tanks don\'t have rail guns.

All those advantages of chemical fuel, yet you still have electricity. That\'s very odd.

How about we brainstorm some of these problems? See if we can find potential solutions?

Your prime motivation is to insult, which makes you not very good at
brainstorming.

How ironic; for a frivolous reason, you reject input preemptively? That\'s NOT
the brainstorming way, John Larkin.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:19:47 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

Chemicals pack a lot of energy. That\'s why tanks don\'t have rail guns.

All those advantages of chemical fuel, yet you still have electricity. That\'s very odd.

How about we brainstorm some of these problems? See if we can find potential solutions?

I don\'t usually react to Ricky, as I have him killfiled.

Anyway, one of the reasons we don\'t make our own electricity with
chemical fuels are that small installations can\'t benefit from the
economy of scale. Large installations with lots of pooled resources
can do much better. Another reason is that chemical fuels are
heavily taxed for small consumers, which quells any advantage we
might gain thereby.

Jeroen Belleman