Buying a Radar Detector 11 bands ? What the hell ???l

[Tinman]

"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...

In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should handle
false-positives properly. (As well as a real threat in the same vicinity
as
the false-positive.)

There are lots and lots of K band door openers now.

I've rarely encountered them around here, if ever. What is the motivation
for the change in frequency, to outwit radar detectors? (Serious question.)

In fact, where I live,
most cops have switched over to Ka!

It's been that way for some time around here--before I arrived 8 years ago.

I live in an area that has large unpopulated areas. Except for interstates,
there is not enough manpower to allow for stationary LEOs writing speeding
tickets (they need to cover their entire territory, which is
time-consuming). This means moving radar; targeting opposing traffic. Most
LEOs seem to operate in always-on mode, at least until recently. Laser is
out of the question.

With a decent detector you can get good advance warning. Indeed in this
environment the cheaper detectors trigger far too soon (but they help
control speed for miles and miles). As instant-on use increases you need to
plan accordingly. Fortunately, there are a plethora of sacrificial lambs who
have no problem being out front. If you stay far enough behind them--but not
too far--you can pickup instant-on radar directed at them. It's very
possible the LEO will miss that vehicle, so you need to slow down
appropriately. (Not me of course, I'm just speaking in general here.)

Often the LEOs will hunker down behind a semi (who must adore them being if
their draft). They pop out just long enough for a quick burst (what probable
cause?), and they are back in. I rarely trust a semi coming at me at what
seems to be a slower than normal speed. Odds are there is a LEO hiding
behind 'em. YMMV.


--
Mike Lynch
'04 FLHTCUI
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary,
and those who don't."

 

[matt weber]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:42:25 GMT, Timberwoof
<timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:

In article <2r6co0F171025U1@uni-berlin.de>,
"reckeless_homicidal_maniac_highway_terrorist_driver"
_unsafe_at_any_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
news:timberwoof.spam-C0D667.14281819092004@typhoon.sonic.net...

You don't have to demodulate the radar signal to know that it is a radar
signal.

Ummmmmmmmm.......interesting. Then only the simple detection of the carrier
frequncey (aka the "modulated" freqyency) is a sufficient condition and the
"modulating" frequency is irrelevant ?

What relevant information does the modulation give you?
Generally you extract the speed information from the doppler shift,

and it is much easier to do with a frequency modulated radar.

Who else uses radar on
public streets and highways? If you're being lit up by something other than a
cop, you either don't care or you're in way deeper doodoo than with just a cop.

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Norm Dresner" <ndrez@att.net> wrote in message
news:s4v3d.399215$OB3.74096@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com
wrote
in message news:10ksu3ggrpc3662@corp.supernews.com...

There are hundreds of automatic door openers that work in the same
bands
as the radar detectors, so as you go by a supermarket or dept store,
your detector is likely to go off. But then you're not usually
traveiling very fast when that happens.


Unless the highway happens to be next to a major shopping mall.

Norm

Well, hopefully, the highway has _some_ distance between it and the
mall. Here in Californy, they put B-I-G parking lots between the stores
and anything else. Well, unless it's a drive-thru. ;-)

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Mike Harrison" <mike@whitewing.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mb8tk0dbiuntc9co3s66fkh3d3tg2v8g06@4ax.com...

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:44:28 -0400,
"reckeless_homicidal_maniac_highway_terrorist_driver"
_unsafe_at_any_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]

Looks like you are better off obeying speed limits & using other
tactics
like go with the flow of traffic etc

Going with the flow of the traffic is not necessarily going to work -
some forces target 'naturally
fast' stretches of roads for maximum revenue.

Natch. They look for easy pickin's.

Also I always wondered ..... if the radar gun transmits a PCM signal
can it
not be made
undetectable to detectors ? If the detector cannot decode the
transmitted
code how can it

They detect the carrier, regardless of the modulation.
If someone speaks to you a foreign language, you can still tell that
they are speaking.

Good analogy. Of course it doesn't work if two deaf people are
'talking' in sign language. (My analogy of the cops using laser or
lidar guns).

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Tinman" <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote in message
news:2r948hF17to05U1@uni-berlin.de...

"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...
In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should
handle
false-positives properly. (As well as a real threat in the same
vicinity
as
the false-positive.)

There are lots and lots of K band door openers now.

I've rarely encountered them around here, if ever. What is the
motivation
for the change in frequency, to outwit radar detectors? (Serious
question.)


In fact, where I live,
most cops have switched over to Ka!


It's been that way for some time around here--before I arrived 8 years
ago.

I live in an area that has large unpopulated areas. Except for
interstates,
there is not enough manpower to allow for stationary LEOs writing
speeding
tickets (they need to cover their entire territory, which is
time-consuming). This means moving radar; targeting opposing traffic.
Most
LEOs seem to operate in always-on mode, at least until recently. Laser
is
out of the question.

With a decent detector you can get good advance warning. Indeed in
this
environment the cheaper detectors trigger far too soon (but they help
control speed for miles and miles). As instant-on use increases you
need to
plan accordingly. Fortunately, there are a plethora of sacrificial
lambs who
have no problem being out front. If you stay far enough behind
them--but not
too far--you can pickup instant-on radar directed at them. It's very
possible the LEO will miss that vehicle, so you need to slow down
appropriately. (Not me of course, I'm just speaking in general here.)

Often the LEOs will hunker down behind a semi (who must adore them
being if
their draft). They pop out just long enough for a quick burst (what
probable
cause?), and they are back in. I rarely trust a semi coming at me at
what
seems to be a slower than normal speed. Odds are there is a LEO hiding
behind 'em. YMMV.

--
Mike Lynch

I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck. I was hoping someone
would come up with some info on how those detectors work. Some
schematics I've seen depict a simple cavity with a microwace detector
diode in it, and a sensitive amp after the diode. Obviously this isn't
very sensitive because the diode needs some substantial RF to make it
conduct.

But I am pleased to see no BS about jammers. Like stuffing tinfoil into
the hubcaps or other nonsense. The only jammer plans I remember seeing
on the web consisted of a 555 timer chip driving the power input of a
Gunnplexer. Maybe that's why all the cops have switched from X band to
some other band. ;-)

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"matt weber" <mattheww50@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jusuk01qcmgc9ab2ujq4irh2n4brv1d5jc@4ax.com...

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:42:25 GMT, Timberwoof
timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:

In article <2r6co0F171025U1@uni-berlin.de>,
"reckeless_homicidal_maniac_highway_terrorist_driver"
_unsafe_at_any_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
news:timberwoof.spam-C0D667.14281819092004@typhoon.sonic.net...

You don't have to demodulate the radar signal to know that it is
a radar
signal.

Ummmmmmmmm.......interesting. Then only the simple detection of the
carrier
frequncey (aka the "modulated" freqyency) is a sufficient
condition and the
"modulating" frequency is irrelevant ?

What relevant information does the modulation give you?
Generally you extract the speed information from the doppler shift,
and it is much easier to do with a frequency modulated radar.

By "you extract", do you mean the cop? If you mean the detector, you
can't extract the speed information if you don't have the reference
frequency.

Who else uses radar on
public streets and highways? If you're being lit up by something
other than a
cop, you either don't care or you're in way deeper doodoo than with
just a cop.

There are tons of motion sensing devices out there such as automatic
door openers. They set off radar detectors like crazy.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:09:01 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

[snip]

I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck. I was hoping someone
would come up with some info on how those detectors work. Some
schematics I've seen depict a simple cavity with a microwace detector
diode in it, and a sensitive amp after the diode. Obviously this isn't
very sensitive because the diode needs some substantial RF to make it
conduct.

Police speed radar is really quite simple, transmit a CW signal,
receive a return, mix the two together, the difference frequency is

2*Vcar/c*ftransmit = 2.086KHz at 70MPH (10GHz transmitter)

Then a uP converts the frequency to speed.

But I am pleased to see no BS about jammers. Like stuffing tinfoil into
the hubcaps or other nonsense. The only jammer plans I remember seeing
on the web consisted of a 555 timer chip driving the power input of a
Gunnplexer. Maybe that's why all the cops have switched from X band to
some other band. ;-)

You can see by the above numbers that accurate jamming, like reporting
a slower speed, is impossible using another oscillator... you're
liable to report a higher speed (beat note).

One thing that does work is to smoke your brakes, decelerating very
rapidly... you're not at a constant speed long enough for the uP to
accurately count that small difference frequency.

I know this from experience... makes the cop **very** angry, so you're
likely to get a ticket for something anyway ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Bownse]

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

"Tinman" <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote in message
news:2r948hF17to05U1@uni-berlin.de...

"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...

In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should

handle

false-positives properly. (As well as a real threat in the same

vicinity

as
the false-positive.)

There are lots and lots of K band door openers now.

I've rarely encountered them around here, if ever. What is the

motivation

for the change in frequency, to outwit radar detectors? (Serious

question.)


In fact, where I live,
most cops have switched over to Ka!


It's been that way for some time around here--before I arrived 8 years

ago.

I live in an area that has large unpopulated areas. Except for

interstates,

there is not enough manpower to allow for stationary LEOs writing

speeding

tickets (they need to cover their entire territory, which is
time-consuming). This means moving radar; targeting opposing traffic.

Most

LEOs seem to operate in always-on mode, at least until recently. Laser

is

out of the question.

With a decent detector you can get good advance warning. Indeed in

this

environment the cheaper detectors trigger far too soon (but they help
control speed for miles and miles). As instant-on use increases you

need to

plan accordingly. Fortunately, there are a plethora of sacrificial

lambs who

have no problem being out front. If you stay far enough behind

them--but not

too far--you can pickup instant-on radar directed at them. It's very
possible the LEO will miss that vehicle, so you need to slow down
appropriately. (Not me of course, I'm just speaking in general here.)

Often the LEOs will hunker down behind a semi (who must adore them

being if

their draft). They pop out just long enough for a quick burst (what

probable

cause?), and they are back in. I rarely trust a semi coming at me at

what

seems to be a slower than normal speed. Odds are there is a LEO hiding
behind 'em. YMMV.

--
Mike Lynch


I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck. I was hoping someone
would come up with some info on how those detectors work. Some
schematics I've seen depict a simple cavity with a microwace detector
diode in it, and a sensitive amp after the diode. Obviously this isn't
very sensitive because the diode needs some substantial RF to make it
conduct.

Mfgrs will hold their secrets close to their vest because of
competition. So, unless you're a specialist in microwaves or just that
much more anal-retentive than most people, it really doesn't matter. How
WELL it functions under real-world use is what people care about; not why.

But I am pleased to see no BS about jammers. Like stuffing tinfoil into
the hubcaps or other nonsense. The only jammer plans I remember seeing
on the web consisted of a 555 timer chip driving the power input of a
Gunnplexer. Maybe that's why all the cops have switched from X band to
some other band. ;-)

Some jammers can work. However they aren't small, they are an active
radar source, and they are controlled by the FCC in the US. Not a
combination that lends itself to commercial ventures to the general
public. What I want to do is import the UK cell phone jammer I saw a
while back; create a moving "cone (dome) of silence" as you ride.

 

[Bownse]

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

There are tons of motion sensing devices out there such as automatic
door openers. They set off radar detectors like crazy.

Not all of the detectors. Some are better able to filter out extraneous
fluff.

--

Mark Johnson, Ft Worth; IBA#288; CM#1; EOB, DoD#2021; LPR#50
2003 FJR1300 "E˛"; http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org

 

[Bownse]

One thing that does work is to smoke your brakes, decelerating very
rapidly... you're not at a constant speed long enough for the uP to
accurately count that small difference frequency.

I know this from experience... makes the cop **very** angry, so you're
likely to get a ticket for something anyway ;-)

...Jim Thompson

I've actually tested this on acceleration. With the right bike, you can
light the afterburners and disappear from the radar screen.

Traveling along and got a lock at 20, fired the loudness knob, the
display showed 20 until I left off, suddenly the display jumped to 70.

The radar system can't get a verification (lock) that is close enough to
the previous one, so the programmed logic tells the system that it's a
false or inaccurate reading and doesn't update. You can do it braking
too, but you have to really get aggressive and some bikes'll lock up the
brakes when trying. To me it seemed much more controlled to do it under
"thrusters". ;-)

 

[Tinman]

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com>
wrote in message
news:10kvhbmkor89084@corp.supernews.com...
<big snip>

I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck.

I couldn't care less how they work at the electronics level. I only care
*how well* they work. This thread was cross-posted all over the map.
Don't expect to see replies from only one NG. If the s.e.m folks wanted
to reply, they were free to do so...


--
Mike Lynch
'04 FLHTCUI

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:25:08 GMT, Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> wrote:

One thing that does work is to smoke your brakes, decelerating very
rapidly... you're not at a constant speed long enough for the uP to
accurately count that small difference frequency.

I know this from experience... makes the cop **very** angry, so you're
likely to get a ticket for something anyway ;-)

...Jim Thompson

I've actually tested this on acceleration. With the right bike, you can
light the afterburners and disappear from the radar screen.

Traveling along and got a lock at 20, fired the loudness knob, the
display showed 20 until I left off, suddenly the display jumped to 70.

The radar system can't get a verification (lock) that is close enough to
the previous one, so the programmed logic tells the system that it's a
false or inaccurate reading and doesn't update. You can do it braking
too, but you have to really get aggressive and some bikes'll lock up the
brakes when trying. To me it seemed much more controlled to do it under
"thrusters". ;-)

ZX with ABS ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Surendar Jeyadev]

In article <2r948hF17to05U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...
In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should handle
false-positives properly. (As well as a real threat in the same vicinity
as
the false-positive.)

There are lots and lots of K band door openers now.

I've rarely encountered them around here, if ever. What is the motivation
for the change in frequency, to outwit radar detectors? (Serious question.)

I have never been able to find a proper answer. In the old days all door
openers, burglar alarms, etc. were, exclusively, X band and K band was
'reserved' for police radar, etc. I assume that as the number of devices
increased, the FCC allowed "civilian" use of the K band as well.
--

Surendar Jeyadev jeyadev1@wrc.xerox.com

Remove 1 for email address

 

[matt weber]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:09:01 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

"Tinman" <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote in message
news:2r948hF17to05U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...
In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should
handle


I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck. I was hoping someone
would come up with some info on how those detectors work. Some
schematics I've seen depict a simple cavity with a microwace detector
diode in it, and a sensitive amp after the diode. Obviously this isn't
very sensitive because the diode needs some substantial RF to make it
conduct.
It isn't the problem you think it is. While the RMS power output of

the radar is very low (milliwatts), the peak effective radiatied power
is actually quite high, probably kilowatts, so that the energy that
hits the cavity for a microsecond even at distance of a mile or so is
substantial.

as best I can tell, most of the radar detectors on the more expensive
side do a digital signal processing analysis on the wave form and
timing coming off the detector to determine whether it has the
characteristics of radar (rep rate, ratio of on/off, and modulation).
Some may have more than one tuned cavity as well.

In my University days we had a small search radar on the roof for
training. It had an RMS output of 60 watts, the actual power into the
antenna when it was on was 60Kw, (it fired for 1 microsecond every
millisecond) and the antenna was sharp enough to push the Effective
radiated power up past 1 Megawatt. It used to wipe out the computing
center's mainframe at a distance of half a mile.

But I am pleased to see no BS about jammers. Like stuffing tinfoil into
the hubcaps or other nonsense. The only jammer plans I remember seeing
on the web consisted of a 555 timer chip driving the power input of a
Gunnplexer. Maybe that's why all the cops have switched from X band to
some other band. ;-)

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:01:02 -0700, matt weber <mattheww50@cox.net>
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:09:01 -0700, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:


"Tinman" <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote in message
news:2r948hF17to05U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Surendar Jeyadev" <jeyadev@wrc.xerox.bounceback.com> wrote in message
news:cing2o$3e0$1@news.wrc.xerox.com...
In article <2r7vlrF15l7rcU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Tinman <mlynch@REMOVEMEcitlink.net> wrote:

How many LE agencies use always-on X band? A decent detector should
handle


I've been following this thread for awhile, hoping to find just a hint
of something electronic in it. So far, no luck. I was hoping someone
would come up with some info on how those detectors work.

I guess Watson has me plonked, I've explained it twice now ;-)

[snip]
Some
[snip]

In my University days we had a small search radar on the roof for
training. It had an RMS output of 60 watts, the actual power into the
antenna when it was on was 60Kw, (it fired for 1 microsecond every
millisecond) and the antenna was sharp enough to push the Effective
radiated power up past 1 Megawatt. It used to wipe out the computing
center's mainframe at a distance of half a mile.
[snip]

Police speed radar is **CW** (except for the instant-on trigger
squeeze), and it is a homodyne (afraid of gays

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Max]

reckeless_homicidal_maniac_highway_terrorist_driver wrote:

I thought I will buy a radar detector . I go look in Target and what the
bloody hell
11 bands ..is it a Cable TV or a radar detector ?

Is it even worth buying one ?

Looks like you are better off obeying speed limits & using other tactics
like go with the flow of traffic etc

I've been looking seriously at a detector called the PNI "Sensoro Silver
Bullet RX7500 / RX7600(compass)", which is supposed to be insanely small
(1" H x 2.75" W x 3.75" L) and invisible to the VG2 (obviously) and
Spectre I and II (III maybe?). Detector detector detectability is a
concern to me for certain reasons, so that kinda piqued my interest.
They go for about $100 US on ebay or 150 list.