Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)

[Clifford Heath]

Mike wrote:

The best lithium-ion variants have an energy density approaching to
that of petrol, ie 9000 Watt hours per litre or for the battery
per kilo...

Rubbish - out by 2 orders of magnitude.
100WH/kg is about the state of the art:
<http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/successes/ss/7-015text.html>.

 

[two bob]

Halves in value, means twice as many dollars for the same amount...!

Yes, I based my calculation on that. In 1976, I was paying just under 0.11
per litre. So, in 1986, it should have been 0.24 /L, then in 1996 it
should
have been 0.48 /L, therefore 2006 it should be 0.96 cents per litre.

So you are saying the average inflation rate between 1976 and 1986 was 8%,

No, I was commenting on YOUR statement:

"Inflation, value of money roughly halves each 10 years"

I think it was more like 15% or thereabouts but, even it was an average of
8%
there were wild swings to 15% or more, this cannot be averaged as its an
exponential calculation

Also between 1986 and 1996, I seem to recall it was more like 10%

However, since 1996 the inflation rate has been between 5 and 9% more or
less, I also recall the petrol price was around 80c/L, so doubling that
puts it at $1.60/L which is more than the $1.32 I paid yesterday and that
was the basis for my comment.

My statement of doubling each 10 years is a broad brush estimate and I
went on the last 10 years or so in that petrol iirc, was around 75 to
80c/L.

Anything further back from that, when we had quite a lot higher inflation
really needs a year by year calculation as an average just wont work
because
averaging the rate then applying it to the exponent calculation wont
result
in the same figure as taking it year by year when there are wilder swings,
its pretty clear why thats the case - compounding...

The other complication is that the government added parity pricing,
funnily
enough that seems to have returned it (petrol) to correlation with
inflation,
prior to that it was lagging behind significantly and migth well have been
undervalued in psychological terms, had it been done earlier the truer
cost
of the fuel from the perspective of long term environmental damage might
well have been factored in.

Petrol is still far less in Perth than it is in Europe.

There are always going to be heaps of anomalies, the general case is only
sufficient for the odd pub debate not so much for detailled analysis but
then the detailled analysis isnt that hard either...


--
Regards
Mike
* GMC/VL Commodore, Calais VL Turbo FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au

 

[Mike]

In article <448d2c74_1@news.iprimus.com.au>, tb@department9.com.au says...

Halves in value, means twice as many dollars for the same amount...!

Yes, I based my calculation on that. In 1976, I was paying just under 0.11
per litre. So, in 1986, it should have been 0.24 /L, then in 1996 it
should
have been 0.48 /L, therefore 2006 it should be 0.96 cents per litre.

So you are saying the average inflation rate between 1976 and 1986 was 8%,

No, I was commenting on YOUR statement:

"Inflation, value of money roughly halves each 10 years"

Yes and my elaboration is that - based on the last 10 years of inflation
rates it is confirmed with a bit of math, as for the previous years its
worse, thats why petrol is cheaper now in real terms.

--
Regards
Mike
* GMC/VL Commodore, Calais VL Turbo FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au

 

[Mike]

In article <448d1f09$0$23400$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, no@spam.please.net says...

Mike wrote:
The best lithium-ion variants have an energy density approaching to
that of petrol, ie 9000 Watt hours per litre or for the battery
per kilo...

Rubbish - out by 2 orders of magnitude.
100WH/kg is about the state of the art:
http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/successes/ss/7-015text.html>.

As I said the 'best' are approaching that of petrol, what you have
found on public access is not the best, not everything that is in
development or commercially demonstrable to a group of investors
is going to be necessarily presented for public exposure...


--
Regards
Mike
* GMC/VL Commodore, Calais VL Turbo FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au

 

[Clifford Heath]

Mike wrote:

100WH/kg is about the state of the art:
As I said the 'best' are approaching that of petrol, what you have
found on public access is not the best

It's noteworthy that you can't actually provide any *evidence*
that someone's made a 100x breakthrough - though no doubt some
have tried to extract money from sucker investors with such
rabid claims.

BTW, I did change the units to WH/Kg, instead of WH/l; 100WH/Kg is
240WH/l in this technology. So you only need a 37x (!) breakthough.
Get real, how likely is *that* though?

I'm afraid chemical storage is with us for the forseeable. The
person who finds a way to make money using nuclear electricity
or some other source to synthesize alcohols (or other cleanish
liquid fuel) will be the next energy trillionaire.

 

[Mike]

In article <448d51bd$0$3459$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, no@spam.please.net says...

Mike wrote:
100WH/kg is about the state of the art:
As I said the 'best' are approaching that of petrol, what you have
found on public access is not the best

It's noteworthy that you can't actually provide any *evidence*
that someone's made a 100x breakthrough - though no doubt some
have tried to extract money from sucker investors with such
rabid claims.

Dont have to provide any evidence, if you dont accept my figure
that variants of lithium ion approach the storage of petrol then
thats your problem however, think about this:-

10 years ago NiMH acheived 100Watt Hours per Kg in pilot prod. and have
been on the market for a few years now. You can buy 900mA AAA cells
which weigh around 11gms, do the sums.

BTW, I did change the units to WH/Kg, instead of WH/l; 100WH/Kg is
240WH/l in this technology. So you only need a 37x (!) breakthough.
Get real, how likely is *that* though?

Lets look at another example,
So a 37x improvement in clock rate over 12 years doesnt seem possible
does it but, did it happen for some processors... ?

Or how about ram chip storage densities etc etc

10 years ago, Lithium Ion was just starting out in pilot prod also,
I will leave it up to you to work out the energy density from then till
now - so your 37x breakthrough is looking a bit more realisable when
it drops to around 10x and that is approaching petrol - like I said

I'm afraid chemical storage is with us for the forseeable. The
person who finds a way to make money using nuclear electricity
or some other source to synthesize alcohols (or other cleanish
liquid fuel) will be the next energy trillionaire.

There are a whole range of material technologies far beyond the
scope of this group and many are not and will not be published on
the net for some time to come, especially if they are near pilot
production stage along with concomittent commercial issues etc

Suggest you not be so narrow when it comes to chemical storage,
you wouldnt exclude petrol or other liquid fuels that store
chemical potential energy. 9000 Watt hours for petrol, there are
others which are almost as safe and they are at 20,000 watt hours,
suffice it to say they dont directly produce electricity but then
you'd agree any storage technology faces downline conversions to
other forms or at the least regulation issues and that means the
reliance to focus solely on electrical misses the overal point
of energy management, delivery and amortisation...

I dont have to prove a thing, you need to exercise patience in
context with various other breakthroughs that routinely surround
you for the last 10 to 15 years <shrug>


--
Regards
Mike
* GMC/VL Commodore, Calais VL Turbo FuseRail that wont warp or melt !
* High grade milspec ignition driver electronics now in development
* Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au