Breadboarding

[DJ Delorie]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> writes:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful... stick down a small
square, notch out some ground windows, and solder the parts on top.

I think I've seen that before. Still curious how well thin FR4 over a
solid plane works, though. Plus, I like etching more than xacto-ing.
And etching is easier for really small details, too.

 

[Tim Wescott]

Eeyore wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Now, only a little while back I said I never breadboard, I go straight
to pcb.

This one's different though. The client wants to do the layout as part
of a larger scheme and I want to be double sure of stability in practice
as opposed to simulation because if he messes up, I can show mine
working fine.

As I'll be using a 65MHz ? op-amp I don't trust perfboard / Veroboard
for this.

I recall some self adhesive 'pre-etched shapes' that you could stick on
a ground plane. The name Wainwright comes to mind but google isn't
helping much.

Any suggestions ?

Graham
Make a layout on Eagle or your fav' tool, and get it fabricated at a
fast-turn PCB house. If you're charging a reasonable rate you'll spend
less than two hours (and probably one) for a small hand full of 2-sided
boards, and you'll save more time than that by not having to fiddle with
a new technology or agonize over whether those stick down strips (or
whatever) are really doing their job.

And you'll have a much closer model to the real thing.

If you were in the US I'd send you to PCB Express
(http://www.pcbexpress.com/).

How do they compare to expresspcb, whom I have used ?

Graham

IIRC expresspcb uses proprietary software, and if you can get your hands

on gerbers it comes extra. PCBExpress takes gerbers and a drill file,
and mails you back PC boards.

Their 'base' service is 1 day, fairly inexpensive, no silk, no solder,
two sided only, and they specify the drill sizes (I think there are 23
to choose from, however, so unless you need precision holes you'll get
something close enough).

So you can pretty much use your regular design process and tools, even
to the point of sending the exact same gerbers to a full-service board
house when you're done with PCBExpress.

I can't imagine that some enterprising eastern European entrepreneurs
aren't doing this now, at least until their countries are overrun by Russia.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

 

Eeyore wrote:

DJ Delorie wrote:

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:
Similar kind of thing. Except I only need a handful !

Next time someone tells me I'm wasting my time making my own boards,
I'm going to point them at this thread

Last time this came up, it got me thinking. I can etch on 8 mil FR4,
and double-stick tape that to an unetched copper clad board, to get
what I think you're asking for. But, not being an RF expert, I have
no idea how well it would "work". I think it would be worth the
effort to find out if this is a viable RF prototyping platform, just
to satisfy my curiosity, if you can send me a PDF of a SS layout (no
vias . Contact me off-list if you're interested.

I only wish I could send you a Wainwright 'Mini-Mount' catalogue. I bet I
have one somewhere here in the archive.

It's just such a breeze to use. It could be a useful side income for
anyone.

Graham

" I only wish I could send you a Wainwright 'Mini-Mount' catalogue. I
bet I
have one somewhere here in the archive."

Do these things still exist? I've heard about them from several
different souces now,

http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=6105

You can get double sided pcb's cheap, and I've always wanted surface
mount "jumpers" for prototyping.
George

 

[Eeyore]

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Now, only a little while back I said I never breadboard, I go straight
to pcb.

This one's different though. The client wants to do the layout as part
of a larger scheme and I want to be double sure of stability in
practice as opposed to simulation because if he messes up, I can show
mine working fine.

As I'll be using a 65MHz ? op-amp I don't trust perfboard / Veroboard
for this.

I recall some self adhesive 'pre-etched shapes' that you could stick
on a ground plane. The name Wainwright comes to mind but google isn't
helping much.

Any suggestions ?

surfboards?
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=9161...

Not terribly convenient for the UK sadly. That's the sort of thing but you
could get individual IC package 'stick ons' and strips for
interconnections etc.

How about pad-per-hole perfboard (preferably with ground plane on the
other side) and either fine wire or copper tape?

Never seen one with ground plane on one side.

Farnell used to stock a prototyping board with a "collander ground
plane" on one side.

C.I.F. stills seems to make something like this

http://www.cif.fr/new/produits_aff.php3?cat=1&scat=1&sscat=3&p=169

as the AL 201 at the bottom of the list.

Farenell stocks it under order code 1201481. I'm fairly sure that this
isn't the part I used but it does seem to be the same kind of
prototyping board.

So near but so far !

If only I could get my hands on those Mini-Mounts.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

DJ Delorie wrote:

Perhaps you could just buy thin copper tape and cut out the shapes you
need?

A bit fiddly for DILs.

Graham

 

[DJ Delorie]

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:

Perhaps you could just buy thin copper tape and cut out the shapes you
need?

A bit fiddly for DILs.

And for TVSOPs too, but like I said, I prefer etching ;-)

 

[Richard The Dreaded Liber]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:14:28 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

How about pad-per-hole perfboard (preferably with ground plane on the
other side) and either fine wire or copper tape?

Never seen one with ground plane on one side.

Vectorbord used to make one, but I haven't been able to find them -
presumably, there wasn't enough demand to keep making them. )-;

Sorry for the teaser.
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:13:21 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

DJ Delorie wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:
Similar kind of thing. Except I only need a handful !

Next time someone tells me I'm wasting my time making my own boards, I'm
going to point them at this thread

Last time this came up, it got me thinking. I can etch on 8 mil FR4,
and double-stick tape that to an unetched copper clad board, to get what
I think you're asking for. But, not being an RF expert, I have no idea
how well it would "work". I think it would be worth the effort to find
out if this is a viable RF prototyping platform, just to satisfy my
curiosity, if you can send me a PDF of a SS layout (no vias . Contact
me off-list if you're interested.

I only wish I could send you a Wainwright 'Mini-Mount' catalogue. I bet I
have one somewhere here in the archive.

It's just such a breeze to use. It could be a useful side income for
anyone.

If you'd sent your layout to one of those quick-turnaround board shops
when this thread started, it'd probably already be done, and you could
be refining it now. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:49:14 -0700, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Now, only a little while back I said I never breadboard, I go
straight to pcb.

This one's different though. The client wants to do the layout as
part of a larger scheme and I want to be double sure of stability in
practice as opposed to simulation because if he messes up, I can
show mine working fine.

So, who is responsible for seing to it that the production version of
this gizmo will actually work?

The ultimate client. They just want a circuit.

I used to love that sort of thing when I was back at Boeing. The H/W
contractor would build something and 'throw it over the wall'. If anything
didn't work, they'd just say, "You can fix it in the software".

;-)

Q. How many engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. None - we'll fix it in software.

Q: How many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Not Applicable! That's a _hardware_ problem!

;-)
Rich

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 GMT, Ben Jackson <ben@ben.com> wrote:

On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy?? I can't afford kapton tape! ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

Ebay maybe?

John

 

[Eeyore]

Rich Grise wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
DJ Delorie wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> writes:
Similar kind of thing. Except I only need a handful !

Next time someone tells me I'm wasting my time making my own boards, I'm
going to point them at this thread

Last time this came up, it got me thinking. I can etch on 8 mil FR4,
and double-stick tape that to an unetched copper clad board, to get what
I think you're asking for. But, not being an RF expert, I have no idea
how well it would "work". I think it would be worth the effort to find
out if this is a viable RF prototyping platform, just to satisfy my
curiosity, if you can send me a PDF of a SS layout (no vias . Contact
me off-list if you're interested.

I only wish I could send you a Wainwright 'Mini-Mount' catalogue. I bet I
have one somewhere here in the archive.

It's just such a breeze to use. It could be a useful side income for
anyone.

If you'd sent your layout to one of those quick-turnaround board shops
when this thread started, it'd probably already be done, and you could
be refining it now. ;-)

On account of budget reasons the design's not yet finalised actually.

Graham

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 +0000, Ben Jackson wrote:

On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy?? I can't afford kapton tape! ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

It depends on how much you want:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/3352
(scroll down a little)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 GMT, the renowned Ben Jackson
<ben@ben.com> wrote:

On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy?? I can't afford kapton tape! ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

About $15 a 36-yard roll for 1/2" is easy (eg. McMaster), there are
some offshore sources for $5/roll landed but I'm not sure it's
actually Kapton (or generic polyimide) but maybe amber colored
polyester.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:49:14 -0700, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Now, only a little while back I said I never breadboard, I go
straight to pcb.

This one's different though. The client wants to do the layout as
part of a larger scheme and I want to be double sure of stability in
practice as opposed to simulation because if he messes up, I can
show mine working fine.

So, who is responsible for seing to it that the production version of
this gizmo will actually work?

The ultimate client. They just want a circuit.

I used to love that sort of thing when I was back at Boeing. The H/W
contractor would build something and 'throw it over the wall'. If anything
didn't work, they'd just say, "You can fix it in the software".

;-)

Q. How many engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. None - we'll fix it in software.

Q: How many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Not Applicable! That's a _hardware_ problem!

You're hired!

;-)
Rich

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Where am I going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?

 

On Sep 23, 5:42 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Now, only a little while back I said I never breadboard, I go straight
to pcb.

This one's different though. The client wants to do the layout as part
of a larger scheme and I want to be double sure of stability in
practice as opposed to simulation because if he messes up, I can show
mine working fine.

As I'll be using a 65MHz ? op-amp I don't trust perfboard / Veroboard
for this.

I recall some self adhesive 'pre-etched shapes' that you could stick
on a ground plane. The name Wainwright comes to mind but google isn't
helping much.

Any suggestions ?

surfboards?
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=9161...

Not terribly convenient for the UK sadly. That's the sort of thing but you
could get individual IC package 'stick ons' and strips for
interconnections etc.

How about pad-per-hole perfboard (preferably with ground plane on the
other side) and either fine wire or copper tape?

Never seen one with ground plane on one side.

Farnell used to stock a prototyping board with a "collander ground
plane" on one side.

C.I.F. stills seems to make something like this

http://www.cif.fr/new/produits_aff.php3?cat=1&scat=1&sscat=3&p=169

as the AL 201 at the bottom of the list.

Farenell stocks it under order code 1201481. I'm fairly sure that this
isn't the part I used but it does seem to be the same kind of
prototyping board.

So near but so far !

If only I could get my hands on those Mini-Mounts.

Farnel can't be far away from you, and a single board costs a bit over
ten quid.

Why not order one (order code 1201481 - see above) and see?

Rich Grise's search skills don't sem to be up to much).

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[David Harmon]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:28:34 -0700 in sci.electronics.components, Tim
Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote,

I can't imagine that some enterprising eastern European entrepreneurs
aren't doing this now, at least until their countries are overrun by Russia.

Of course they are. Have you forgotten olimex.com and Tsvetan Usunov
who used to post to this group from Bulgaria?

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:22:44 -0500, Kris Krieger <me@dowmuff.in>
wrote:

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote in
newsan.2008.09.23.23.48.53.373398@example.net:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 +0000, Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com
wrote:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy?? I can't afford kapton tape! ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

It depends on how much you want:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/3352
(scroll down a little)

Cheers!
Rich


Holy cow, that place sells everything... I dunno qwhat the OP thinks, but
for my part, Good link, thanks!

McMaster is amazing, even for "electronic" stuff, like ceramic tubes
to wind power resistors on, or water-cooled cold plates and fittings,
or all sorts of insulating materials and goodies.

John

 

[Eeyore]

David Harmon wrote:

Tim Wescott wrote,
I can't imagine that some enterprising eastern European entrepreneurs
aren't doing this now, at least until their countries are overrun by Russia.

Of course they are. Have you forgotten olimex.com and Tsvetan Usunov
who used to post to this group from Bulgaria?

If Russia does that btw, it'll be full out nuclear war in no time. Many of those
countries are now NATO members.

Despite all the bluster, the Russians aren't THAT stupid. And half their
armaments are rusted to hell anyway and their forces are mostly drunk and don't
give a shit. They're going to hate it when Ukraine gets EU membership (and
possible NATO too).

Graham

 

On Sep 24, 1:22 pm, Kris Krieger <m...@dowmuff.in> wrote:

Rich Grise <r...@example.net> wrote innewsan.2008.09.23.23.48.53.373398@example.net:





On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 +0000, Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com
wrote:

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy??  I can't afford kapton tape!  ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

It depends on how much you want:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/3352
(scroll down a little)

Cheers!
Rich

Holy cow, that place sells everything...  I dunno qwhat the OP thinks, but
for my part, Good link, thanks!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Holy cow, that place sells everything...

You haven't used McMaster -Carr. How do you survive? One of the best
things about McC is their index! You don't appreciate it until you
try and find something in another catalog.

George

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:22:44 -0500, Kris Krieger wrote:

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote in
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:11:22 +0000, Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2008-09-23, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com

You can get down to about 100 ps, 3 GHz or so, with Xacto knives and
copperclad. Kapton tape can be really helpful...

Are you crazy?? I can't afford kapton tape! ;-)

But seriously, is there a supplier for kapton that's not $25-40/roll?

It depends on how much you want:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/114/3352
(scroll down a little)

Holy cow, that place sells everything... I dunno qwhat the OP thinks, but
for my part, Good link, thanks!

The astonishing thing is, they've got it all on hand. There's one a few
blocks from here, with a "will call" desk. You can order something and
drive down and pick it up.

But, admittedly, they're not shy about their prices - one guy I worked for
said that they're the convenience store of hardware. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich