Bootstrap help (PD-TIA)

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 11:49:42 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 05:49:11 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

I love the twenty years part. :^)

George H.

I'll be glad to give a good recommendation.


--
Thanks,
- Win

You can agree to not share accepted-definition trade secrets,
presumably in return for something of value to you. You have a legal
right to "practise your trade" which includes doing normal stuff.\

I can't think of anything that could be a trade secret*. I think I can
point to all the circuits or designs where my things started, with some
mods/ changes to fit need or what's available today.

I think my boss might have an inflated view of what a 'trade secret' might be.
In one instrument I 'self discovered' this RC Zobel network you can put
in parallel with a coil to make it look like a pure resistance
to the amp driving it. When writing the manual, he didn't want me to include
that, so there is just a box that says, 'compensating network'.

My feeling is that the above line is there, so I won't go somewhere
else and 'update' all my instruments and perhaps compete with him.

But that's just a feeling. I'll have to ask.

I wouldn't sign anything like that unless a giant severance is
included.

Three months salary and benefits, ~$25k to me.

I really enjoyed being fired. Got a nice fresh start on life.
Unemployment and severance financed some shopping around for six
months.

Maybe you can do some serious scientific instrumentation next, not the
educational things.

There are a few defense contractors in the area... all look hungry for workers.

George H.
*As I wrote that, I thought about this trick I've used twice now to
homogenize a pair of Helmholtz coils, every once in a while the
inhomogeneity is along the field axis, and by shunting some of the
current in one coil (with a parallel R) I can make it better.
But I haven't told my boss about this trick... and I've shared it
before on SED. So kinda a weird trade secret.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 1:37:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 28/09/19 13:49, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

What you think it implies is, of course, irrelevant!

As written, it can easily be interpreted to mean that
plans/designs/circuits you develop after leaving cannot
be shared with your new clients. (Ridiculous, maybe
not enforceable).

Hi Tom, I think what it means to me and what it means to my ex-boss
are the two things that are relevant.

Ditto Teachspin property, but /that/ isn't ridiculous.

Hmm I have no idea what counts as property. Are my notebooks
property of the company I worked for? (probably, though
I could debate the other side.) Are my circuit/ design
scribbles in those notebooks property of the company?
I have no idea, I don't care if they use them, but I don't
want to be barred from re-using my old ideas. Are ideas
never used by a company in a product, still their property?

George H.

In the UK you could amend that letter to be something
to your liking, sign and date the amendment, and
return that.

Oh the opening line starts with some blurb about non-negotiable
conditions.

Or, as I once did w.r.t. a patent application, edit
the PDF to insert a word such as "reasonable" in the
relevant point.


I love the twenty years part. :^)

Restraint of trade.

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 12:39:56 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

George Herold wrote...

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs,
electronic circuits or any other Teachspin property
with any commercial company or educational institution
for a period of 20 years."

The maximum term should be no more than 3 years.

But you SHOULD NOT sign such a vague document,
especially one calling out "electronic circuits".

If something is to be protected, the protected
item(s) need to be spelled out very clearly,
otherwise your entire engineering career can
be put at risk. For example, you know how to
design a specific high-performance amplifier.
Maybe they have one like that in a product,
maybe you designed it, maybe not. But you
should not be prevented from creating a similar,
or even nearly identical, design in the future.

The company has various educational products.
You can agree not to divulged relevant details
of those specific products. But say a product
has a circuit you're familiar with, an amplifier,
etc., that's part of your engineering toolkit, it
cannot be magically included with vague language.

Thanks Win, this is exactly my concern. I've used a state variable
filter in a few instruments. Am I barred from using it again?
I can agree not to copy my previous designs, cause these days
I can make 'em better with better opamps.

George H.

--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 9/28/19 11:49 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 05:49:11 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

I love the twenty years part. :^)

George H.

I'll be glad to give a good recommendation.


--
Thanks,
- Win

You can agree to not share accepted-definition trade secrets,
presumably in return for something of value to you. You have a legal
right to "practise your trade" which includes doing normal stuff.

I wouldn't sign anything like that unless a giant severance is
included.

Seconded. NDAs that I sign are typically 3 years, maximum 5. Generally
smallish companies try to push the most ridiculous contract terms.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 12:39:56 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs,
electronic circuits or any other Teachspin property
with any commercial company or educational institution
for a period of 20 years."

The maximum term should be no more than 3 years.

But you SHOULD NOT sign such a vague document,
especially one calling out "electronic circuits".

If something is to be protected, the protected
item(s) need to be spelled out very clearly,
otherwise your entire engineering career can
be put at risk. For example, you know how to
design a specific high-performance amplifier.
Maybe they have one like that in a product,
maybe you designed it, maybe not. But you
should not be prevented from creating a similar,
or even nearly identical, design in the future.

The company has various educational products.
You can agree not to divulged relevant details
of those specific products. But say a product
has a circuit you're familiar with, an amplifier,
etc., that's part of your engineering toolkit, it
cannot be magically included with vague language.

Thanks Win, this is exactly my concern. I've used a state variable
filter in a few instruments. Am I barred from using it again?
I can agree not to copy my previous designs, cause these days
I can make 'em better with better opamps.

George H.


--
Thanks,
- Win

There is a practically standard NDA that most everyone uses when tech
companies work together. It clearly defines trade secrets and excludes
things that are common practice, and pre-existing technology, anything
arguably public domain either before after signing.

Patentability theoretically excludes things that would be "obvious to
one skilled in the art."

I can send you a typical NDA. The phrasing could be useful.

In real life, your ex-boss won't be looking over your shoulder for 20
years.

Hey, just tell him "oh, I plan to do much better stuff for my next
employer. No need to copy that old junk."



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 7:28:57 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 28/09/19 22:05, George Herold wrote:
On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 1:37:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/09/19 13:49, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

What you think it implies is, of course, irrelevant!

As written, it can easily be interpreted to mean that
plans/designs/circuits you develop after leaving cannot
be shared with your new clients. (Ridiculous, maybe
not enforceable).
Hi Tom, I think what it means to me and what it means to my ex-boss
are the two things that are relevant.

Ultimately it is what a court thinks is relevant, but that
is jumping ahead several stages!

First it is what your ex-boss thinks. If he thinks something
is included he can start to make your life tedious, and cause
you to spend money on your lawyers to see if he has any
case.

Second, /if/ he can convince his lawyers, they can start
to invoke legal procedures, and cause you to spend money
defending them.

If the validity of thoughts and claims was relevant,
patent trolls wouldn't exist.



Ditto Teachspin property, but /that/ isn't ridiculous.
Hmm I have no idea what counts as property. Are my notebooks
property of the company I worked for? (probably, though
I could debate the other side.) Are my circuit/ design
scribbles in those notebooks property of the company?

Probably; I wouldn't like to defend it in court.

Property includes "intellectual property". What's
enforceable is a local decision, so I can't comment!



I have no idea, I don't care if they use them, but I don't
want to be barred from re-using my old ideas. Are ideas
never used by a company in a product, still their property?

If generated as part of your employment, possibly.
Best to have a look at your contract of employment
and to understand local laws.

IANAL, but I would expect that they could come after
you if you adversely affected their business. Classic
examples are taking and "reusing" client contact lists,
or duplicating one of their products.

If you don't do that, then I expect you don't have
anything to worry about, but IANAL.

Do you lose anything if you don't sign?

Here the company has to pay for your independent legal
advice about redundancy terms and conditions. Is that
true where you are?

Can you get legal advice from any professional
organisation? Any such advice ought to be pretty
standard.

Over here, it is quite difficult to sign away fundamental
rights guaranteed by other statutes. Attempts to do that
are struck down by the court; even though lawyers know that
they can try to bluff you.

I really do not want to get involved with lawyers.
Easier not to sign it.

$25k would be nice, but I don't need the money.

George H.

George h.

 

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<0b429d07-d6a6-4223-b5fe-280465b44714@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Hmm. What happened?

.
Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

As many have said, do not sign any such thing.

By the way, it sounds like it´s already too late - typically, one is
required to sign a NDA as a condition of employment. They cannot impose it
retrospectively, unless they can convince you to sign. Depending on local
law, they may or may not be able to deny severance. You probably should have
a local lawyer advising you.

The classic counter maneuver is to reply in writing to this proposed
agreement saying that you would really like to do the right thing, but cannot
figure out what that might be, and ask for a list of specific things to be
legally protected. Then, nitpick the list - I bet that most of it will be an
attempt to hold standard practice as trade secret. Like stuff you got from
S.E.D., which is a public forum, and does not belong to Teachspin.

..
> I love the twenty years part. :^)

The max is something like five years, and three years is more common. After
that, the Court will just laugh.

If necessary, I would suggest proposing one year, on the theory that things
in electronics change so fast that any longer a period is pointless anyway,
and only serves to sharply limit your ability to make a living.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 28/09/19 22:05, George Herold wrote:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 1:37:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/09/19 13:49, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

What you think it implies is, of course, irrelevant!

As written, it can easily be interpreted to mean that
plans/designs/circuits you develop after leaving cannot
be shared with your new clients. (Ridiculous, maybe
not enforceable).
Hi Tom, I think what it means to me and what it means to my ex-boss
are the two things that are relevant.

Ultimately it is what a court thinks is relevant, but that
is jumping ahead several stages!

First it is what your ex-boss thinks. If he thinks something
is included he can start to make your life tedious, and cause
you to spend money on your lawyers to see if he has any
case.

Second, /if/ he can convince his lawyers, they can start
to invoke legal procedures, and cause you to spend money
defending them.

If the validity of thoughts and claims was relevant,
patent trolls wouldn't exist.

Ditto Teachspin property, but /that/ isn't ridiculous.
Hmm I have no idea what counts as property. Are my notebooks
property of the company I worked for? (probably, though
I could debate the other side.) Are my circuit/ design
scribbles in those notebooks property of the company?

Probably; I wouldn't like to defend it in court.

Property includes "intellectual property". What's
enforceable is a local decision, so I can't comment!

I have no idea, I don't care if they use them, but I don't
want to be barred from re-using my old ideas. Are ideas
never used by a company in a product, still their property?

If generated as part of your employment, possibly.
Best to have a look at your contract of employment
and to understand local laws.

IANAL, but I would expect that they could come after
you if you adversely affected their business. Classic
examples are taking and "reusing" client contact lists,
or duplicating one of their products.

If you don't do that, then I expect you don't have
anything to worry about, but IANAL.

Do you lose anything if you don't sign?

Here the company has to pay for your independent legal
advice about redundancy terms and conditions. Is that
true where you are?

Can you get legal advice from any professional
organisation? Any such advice ought to be pretty
standard.

Over here, it is quite difficult to sign away fundamental
rights guaranteed by other statutes. Attempts to do that
are struck down by the court; even though lawyers know that
they can try to bluff you.

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 6:01:46 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 12:39:56 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs,
electronic circuits or any other Teachspin property
with any commercial company or educational institution
for a period of 20 years."

The maximum term should be no more than 3 years.

But you SHOULD NOT sign such a vague document,
especially one calling out "electronic circuits".

If something is to be protected, the protected
item(s) need to be spelled out very clearly,
otherwise your entire engineering career can
be put at risk. For example, you know how to
design a specific high-performance amplifier.
Maybe they have one like that in a product,
maybe you designed it, maybe not. But you
should not be prevented from creating a similar,
or even nearly identical, design in the future.

The company has various educational products.
You can agree not to divulged relevant details
of those specific products. But say a product
has a circuit you're familiar with, an amplifier,
etc., that's part of your engineering toolkit, it
cannot be magically included with vague language.

Thanks Win, this is exactly my concern. I've used a state variable
filter in a few instruments. Am I barred from using it again?
I can agree not to copy my previous designs, cause these days
I can make 'em better with better opamps.

George H.


--
Thanks,
- Win

There is a practically standard NDA that most everyone uses when tech
companies work together. It clearly defines trade secrets and excludes
things that are common practice, and pre-existing technology, anything
arguably public domain either before after signing.

Patentability theoretically excludes things that would be "obvious to
one skilled in the art."

I can send you a typical NDA. The phrasing could be useful.
No that's OK, I don't think this agreement is open to change.

In real life, your ex-boss won't be looking over your shoulder for 20
years.

Hey, just tell him "oh, I plan to do much better stuff for my next
employer. No need to copy that old junk."

Yeah I think that's mostly right. Maybe I'm being a semi jerk?
I guess I feel it stops me from getting some job that would be in
competition.. but maybe not if I just do new stuff.

I have no idea where I'll get a job, so keeping options open?

I'll think more...

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 29/09/19 01:12, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

That $25K will buy a lot of lawyerly advice, so you have nothing to lose by
asking that lawyer.

A sensible perspective.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 29/09/19 00:39, George Herold wrote:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 7:28:57 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/09/19 22:05, George Herold wrote:
On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 1:37:09 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/09/19 13:49, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

What you think it implies is, of course, irrelevant!

As written, it can easily be interpreted to mean that
plans/designs/circuits you develop after leaving cannot
be shared with your new clients. (Ridiculous, maybe
not enforceable).
Hi Tom, I think what it means to me and what it means to my ex-boss
are the two things that are relevant.

Ultimately it is what a court thinks is relevant, but that
is jumping ahead several stages!

First it is what your ex-boss thinks. If he thinks something
is included he can start to make your life tedious, and cause
you to spend money on your lawyers to see if he has any
case.

Second, /if/ he can convince his lawyers, they can start
to invoke legal procedures, and cause you to spend money
defending them.

If the validity of thoughts and claims was relevant,
patent trolls wouldn't exist.



Ditto Teachspin property, but /that/ isn't ridiculous.
Hmm I have no idea what counts as property. Are my notebooks
property of the company I worked for? (probably, though
I could debate the other side.) Are my circuit/ design
scribbles in those notebooks property of the company?

Probably; I wouldn't like to defend it in court.

Property includes "intellectual property". What's
enforceable is a local decision, so I can't comment!



I have no idea, I don't care if they use them, but I don't
want to be barred from re-using my old ideas. Are ideas
never used by a company in a product, still their property?

If generated as part of your employment, possibly.
Best to have a look at your contract of employment
and to understand local laws.

IANAL, but I would expect that they could come after
you if you adversely affected their business. Classic
examples are taking and "reusing" client contact lists,
or duplicating one of their products.

If you don't do that, then I expect you don't have
anything to worry about, but IANAL.

Do you lose anything if you don't sign?

Here the company has to pay for your independent legal
advice about redundancy terms and conditions. Is that
true where you are?

Can you get legal advice from any professional
organisation? Any such advice ought to be pretty
standard.

Over here, it is quite difficult to sign away fundamental
rights guaranteed by other statutes. Attempts to do that
are struck down by the court; even though lawyers know that
they can try to bluff you.

I really do not want to get involved with lawyers.
Easier not to sign it.

$25k would be nice, but I don't need the money.

Might be worth trying to negotiate.

Work out that what they are trying to achieve is Y.

Simply say "that's unacceptable and unenforceable
(maybe illegal?). If you change it to standard clauses
X then it gives you Y and I'm content too".

Get clauses X from a legal advice centre or
professional body.

My daughter has successfully used that kind tactic
several times with silly tenancy agreements.

 

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<79f5c8d1-5e0e-41c4-8ca8-ea2e05cfd518@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 7:36:40 PM UTC-4, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<0b429d07-d6a6-4223-b5fe-280465b44714@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Hmm. What happened?
Oh, well the news was buried on some other SED thread.
Teachspin is looking to hire another PhD.
I just told the prospective hire that I'm unhappy at my
current job. I told my boss first... so that I wouldn't sandbag him.

I could see how the domino's would fall, but I didn't feel right 'not'
telling the prospective hire about my situation.
And here I am.

.
Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

As many have said, do not sign any such thing.

By the way, it sounds like it´s already too late - typically, one is
required to sign a NDA as a condition of employment. They cannot impose it
retrospectively, unless they can convince you to sign. Depending on local
law, they may or may not be able to deny severance. You probably should have
a local lawyer advising you.

The classic counter maneuver is to reply in writing to this proposed
agreement saying that you would really like to do the right thing, but
cannot
figure out what that might be, and ask for a list of specific things to be
legally protected. Then, nitpick the list - I bet that most of it will be an
attempt to hold standard practice as trade secret. Like stuff you got from
S.E.D., which is a public forum, and does not belong to Teachspin.

.
I love the twenty years part. :^)

The max is something like five years, and three years is more common. After
that, the Court will just laugh.

If necessary, I would suggest proposing one year, on the theory that things
in electronics change so fast that any longer a period is pointless anyway,
and only serves to sharply limit your ability to make a living.
We're still selling the first instrument I did ~20 years ago.
(It is getting a bit long in the tooth.)

Joe Gwinn

Thanks Joe, I do know a decent lawyer, maybe he can recommend someone.
The other option is to leave the $25k on the table and move on.
That looks a lot simpler.

It does not matter how long that unit has sold.

That $25K will buy a lot of lawyerly advice, so you have nothing to lose by
asking that lawyer.

Joe Gwinn

 

[George Herold]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 7:36:40 PM UTC-4, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<0b429d07-d6a6-4223-b5fe-280465b44714@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Hmm. What happened?

Oh, well the news was buried on some other SED thread.
Teachspin is looking to hire another PhD.
I just told the prospective hire that I'm unhappy at my
current job. I told my boss first... so that I wouldn't sandbag him.

I could see how the domino's would fall, but I didn't feel right 'not'
telling the prospective hire about my situation.
And here I am.

.
Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

As many have said, do not sign any such thing.

By the way, it sounds like it´s already too late - typically, one is
required to sign a NDA as a condition of employment. They cannot impose it
retrospectively, unless they can convince you to sign. Depending on local
law, they may or may not be able to deny severance. You probably should have
a local lawyer advising you.

The classic counter maneuver is to reply in writing to this proposed
agreement saying that you would really like to do the right thing, but cannot
figure out what that might be, and ask for a list of specific things to be
legally protected. Then, nitpick the list - I bet that most of it will be an
attempt to hold standard practice as trade secret. Like stuff you got from
S.E.D., which is a public forum, and does not belong to Teachspin.

.
I love the twenty years part. :^)

The max is something like five years, and three years is more common. After
that, the Court will just laugh.

If necessary, I would suggest proposing one year, on the theory that things
in electronics change so fast that any longer a period is pointless anyway,
and only serves to sharply limit your ability to make a living.

We're still selling the first instrument I did ~20 years ago.
(It is getting a bit long in the tooth.)

Joe Gwinn

Thanks Joe, I do know a decent lawyer, maybe he can recommend someone.
The other option is to leave the $25k on the table and move on.
That looks a lot simpler.

George H.

 

[Winfield Hill]

George Herold wrote...

On September 28, 2019, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

We're still selling the first instrument I did ~20 years ago.

Thanks Joe, I do know a decent lawyer, maybe he can recommend
someone. The other option is to leave the $25k on the table
and move on. That looks a lot simpler.

You should tell him the document is unacceptable, because in
its excessive broadness, he could destroy your future, so
you can't sign. Can you suggest changes to the agreement?

Does he really want to fire a loyal 20-year employee who has
contributed so much to his wealth, without any severance pay?
Tell him that you certainly won't reveal company schematics,
but that your own engineering expertise cannot be enjoined.

As for your notes, hopefully you have copies at home.** These
are your thought processes, not his. But you can assure him
that you won't design copies any of his products. Although
its unlikely you will do so, it's your right to think up new,
better designs. If he contests that basic right, take a walk.

**I kept copies of my notes when I left Harvard's Electronics
Design Center, to start my oceanographic instrument company.
This created a firestorm with my boss, although it should not
have. Sadly, I somehow misplaced those notes, but that did
not have much effect on my subsequent career. It just meant
that some really good design ideas were lost. (I know this,
because I came across two high-performance current-source
amplifiers that I had designed, along with a portion of their
documentation, and the schematic portions I saw blew me away.
They were clearly very advanced, but I didn't understand them
and could only guess at the missing pieces. The performance
of the instruments was amazing, but that could have been in
part due to an extraordinary transistor Fairchild made for a
few years, with thousands of distributed emitter resistors.
And no datasheet for those special parts now exists.)




--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Sep 28, 2019, Joseph Gwinn wrote
(in article<0001HW.23402E620679EA3070000D5022EF@news.giganews.com&gt:

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote

(in article<79f5c8d1-5e0e-41c4-8ca8-ea2e05cfd518@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 7:36:40 PM UTC-4, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

On Sep 28, 2019, George Herold wrote
(in article<0b429d07-d6a6-4223-b5fe-280465b44714@googlegroups.com&gt:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:35:55 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote

George Herold wrote...

I was fired today... (expected.)

Brilliant idea on their part ... NOT !!!
But a chance for you to branch out anew.

Yeah, mostly I feel relieved. I torpedoed this one new hire,
and so I've been expecting it.

Hmm. What happened?
Oh, well the news was buried on some other SED thread.
Teachspin is looking to hire another PhD.
I just told the prospective hire that I'm unhappy at my
current job. I told my boss first... so that I wouldn't sandbag him.

I could see how the domino's would fall, but I didn't feel right 'not'
telling the prospective hire about my situation.
And here I am.

.
Let me share this piece of the severance letter.

"That Mr. Herold agrees not to share plans, designs, electronic
circuits or any other Teachspin property with any commercial company or
educational institution for a period of 20 years."

I have no idea what this means, but it seems crazy to sign on to such
terms. (Property would seem to imply any circuit scribble I've
done at work.)

As many have said, do not sign any such thing.

By the way, it sounds like it´s already too late - typically, one is
required to sign a NDA as a condition of employment. They cannot impose it
retrospectively, unless they can convince you to sign. Depending on local
law, they may or may not be able to deny severance. You probably should
have
a local lawyer advising you.

The classic counter maneuver is to reply in writing to this proposed
agreement saying that you would really like to do the right thing, but
cannot
figure out what that might be, and ask for a list of specific things to be
legally protected. Then, nitpick the list - I bet that most of it will be
an
attempt to hold standard practice as trade secret. Like stuff you got from
S.E.D., which is a public forum, and does not belong to Teachspin.

.
I love the twenty years part. :^)

The max is something like five years, and three years is more common. Afte

that, the Court will just laugh.

If necessary, I would suggest proposing one year, on the theory that thing

in electronics change so fast that any longer a period is pointless anyway

and only serves to sharply limit your ability to make a living.
We're still selling the first instrument I did ~20 years ago.
(It is getting a bit long in the tooth.)

Joe Gwinn

Thanks Joe, I do know a decent lawyer, maybe he can recommend someone.
The other option is to leave the $25k on the table and move on.
That looks a lot simpler.

It does not matter how long that unit has sold.

That $25K will buy a lot of lawyerly advice, so you have nothing to lose by
asking that lawyer.
And a lawyer letter can be very effective.

Joe Gwinn