Blowhards Sailing Downwind

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.

---
Here's mine:

news:7vov665ft52l6mn2sbog9jtvnbni7u0tbf@4ax.com

---
JF
Crap, my newsreader does nothing with that link.
It adds a couple forward slashes after the colon, and a forward slash at
the very end. But no action when I click.
 
John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

---
Perfect!

I used a sprocket on the prop shaft and another one on a right-angle
drive with the input to the drive being the wheel axles, so I wouldn't
have to twist the chain, but I like yours better. Much simpler. :)
---

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.

---
But thrilling, yes?

How about that moment of discovery when you saw the thing working, in
your mind, for the first time?
I was dumbstruck. I think it reached 400 MPH when the belt broke.
 
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:27:14 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.

---
Here's mine:

news:7vov665ft52l6mn2sbog9jtvnbni7u0tbf@4ax.com

---
JF

Crap, my newsreader does nothing with that link.
It adds a couple forward slashes after the colon, and a forward slash at
the very end. But no action when I click.
---
It's over on alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, subject: "DWFTTW
concept cart."

If you can't get abse, email me your email addy and I'll send you a
copy.

---
JF
 
John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:27:14 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.
---
Here's mine:

news:7vov665ft52l6mn2sbog9jtvnbni7u0tbf@4ax.com

---
JF
Crap, my newsreader does nothing with that link.
It adds a couple forward slashes after the colon, and a forward slash at
the very end. But no action when I click.

---
It's over on alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, subject: "DWFTTW
concept cart."
Nice! "3 ROTATION" points the wrong direction though.

From a stop, the car backs up into the wind.

If the car's already moving downwind when the system is engaged, the
windmilling propeller will brake the wheel's rotation.

If some sort of lock is holding the prop stationary until the system is
engaged, that doesn't work either. The wheel has to counter wind-applied
torque at the prop shaft the instant it's unlocked.

Adding a gravity blocker on the side of the ascending propeller blade
might do the trick. Or maybe use hollow blades partially filled with
water that's pumped back and forth so the descending side is always heavier.
 
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:07:46 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:27:14 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.
---
Here's mine:

news:7vov665ft52l6mn2sbog9jtvnbni7u0tbf@4ax.com

---
JF
Crap, my newsreader does nothing with that link.
It adds a couple forward slashes after the colon, and a forward slash at
the very end. But no action when I click.

---
It's over on alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, subject: "DWFTTW
concept cart."

Nice!
---
Thanks! :)
---

"3 ROTATION" points the wrong direction though.
---
No. If the wind is blowing from the rear the prop's drag will cause
the cart to be pushed forward, which will cause the wheels to rotate
CCW, (side view) which will cause the prop to rotate CW as shown in
the rear view.
---

From a stop, the car backs up into the wind.
---
It can't, since it's the drag from the prop that's causing the wind to
push the cart forward, which is causing the prop to rotate "backwards"
until greater than wind speed is achieved
---

If the car's already moving downwind when the system is engaged, the
windmilling propeller will brake the wheel's rotation.
---
It won't be windmilling until the cart achieves greater than wind
speed.
---

If some sort of lock is holding the prop stationary until the system is
engaged, that doesn't work either. The wheel has to counter wind-applied
torque at the prop shaft the instant it's unlocked.
---
The only lock on the prop is the wheels, and all that's required for
the cart to move forward is that the drag produced by the prop forces
enough torque to be generated by the wheels to overcome the torque
generated by the rotating prop.

---
JF
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:37:55 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:07:46 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:27:14 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:43:07 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

Beryl wrote:
John Fields wrote:

I've got a sketch I'm working which (hopefully) will make things
clearer, and I'll post it to abse when I finish it, tomorrow sometime.
I hope you're using gears, shafts, chains and sprockets, visible stuff.
I've been working on mine! :^)
Nothing I have the nerve to present yet, but it's real simple - the
wheel is a pulley, there's another pulley on the propeller shaft, and
there's a twisted belt between the two. That's all it takes.

It looks like as the car goes faster, the wheel goes faster too. And
then the propeller goes faster, so the car just keeps going even faster.
This is scary.
---
Here's mine:

news:7vov665ft52l6mn2sbog9jtvnbni7u0tbf@4ax.com

---
JF
Crap, my newsreader does nothing with that link.
It adds a couple forward slashes after the colon, and a forward slash at
the very end. But no action when I click.

---
It's over on alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, subject: "DWFTTW
concept cart."

Nice!

---
Thanks! :)
---

"3 ROTATION" points the wrong direction though.

---
No. If the wind is blowing from the rear the prop's drag will cause
the cart to be pushed forward, which will cause the wheels to rotate
CCW, (side view) which will cause the prop to rotate CW as shown in
the rear view.
---

From a stop, the car backs up into the wind.

---
It can't, since it's the drag from the prop that's causing the wind to
push the cart forward, which is causing the prop to rotate "backwards"
until greater than wind speed is achieved
---

If the car's already moving downwind when the system is engaged, the
windmilling propeller will brake the wheel's rotation.

---
It won't be windmilling until the cart achieves greater than wind
speed.
---

If some sort of lock is holding the prop stationary until the system is
engaged, that doesn't work either. The wheel has to counter wind-applied
torque at the prop shaft the instant it's unlocked.

---
The only lock on the prop is the wheels, and all that's required for
the cart to move forward is that the drag produced by the prop forces
enough torque to be generated by the wheels to overcome the torque
generated by the rotating prop.
---
More properly, to overcome the torque generated by the wind flowing
across the prop.

---
JF
 
John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:07:46 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:
....
From a stop, the car backs up into the wind.
---
It can't, since it's the drag from the prop that's causing the wind to
push the cart forward, which is causing the prop to rotate "backwards"
until greater than wind speed is achieved
This is the same as the BeanieMoBile that goes upwind, but here you
"think" you have it headed downwind because the left side is pointier in
your drawing.
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:51:17 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:07:46 -0700, Beryl <fourl@road.net> wrote:
...
From a stop, the car backs up into the wind.
---
It can't, since it's the drag from the prop that's causing the wind to
push the cart forward, which is causing the prop to rotate "backwards"
until greater than wind speed is achieved

This is the same as the BeanieMoBile that goes upwind, but here you
"think" you have it headed downwind because the left side is pointier in
your drawing.
---
OK, have it your way...

---
JF
 
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:37:55 -0500, John Fields wrote:

If some sort of lock is holding the prop stationary until the system is
engaged, that doesn't work either. The wheel has to counter wind-applied
torque at the prop shaft the instant it's unlocked.

---
The only lock on the prop is the wheels, and all that's required for
the cart to move forward is that the drag produced by the prop forces
enough torque to be generated by the wheels to overcome the torque
generated by the rotating prop.
And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:08:36 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:37:55 -0500, John Fields wrote:

If some sort of lock is holding the prop stationary until the system is
engaged, that doesn't work either. The wheel has to counter wind-applied
torque at the prop shaft the instant it's unlocked.

---
The only lock on the prop is the wheels, and all that's required for
the cart to move forward is that the drag produced by the prop forces
enough torque to be generated by the wheels to overcome the torque
generated by the rotating prop.

And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.
---
Problem with that is that the cart can never go faster than the wind.

---
JF
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:52:52 -0500, John Fields wrote:

And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.

---
Problem with that is that the cart can never go faster than the wind.
How so?
 
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:08:44 +0100, Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:52:52 -0500, John Fields wrote:

And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.

---
Problem with that is that the cart can never go faster than the wind.

How so?
---
When the cart is heading into the wind, the propeller becomes a
turbine.

---
JF
 
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Martin
<mrbgoogle@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Aug 24, 12:58 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:08:44 +0100, Nobody <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:52:52 -0500, John Fields wrote:

And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.

---
Problem with that is that the cart can never go faster than the wind.

How so?

---
When the cart is heading into the wind, the propeller becomes a
turbine.

---
JF



Assuming you are talking about heading into a relative headwind
here ..

The prop NEVER becomes a turbine, it ALWAYS works as a prop.
(think about it, it would mean the energy was going the wrong way,
from prop to wheels)
---
Assume that there is no wind, and of course the cart will sit
motionless.

Now assume the cart experiences a headwind.

Where will the power to turn the wheels come from?

---
JF
 
On Aug 24, 12:58 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:08:44 +0100, Nobody <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:52:52 -0500, John Fields wrote:

And if a lock is needed (if only to clarify the situation), the wheels
can drive the propeller via a worm gear. This ensures that the propeller
cannot act as a turbine.

---
Problem with that is that the cart can never go faster than the wind.

How so?

---
When the cart is heading into the wind, the propeller becomes a
turbine.

---
JF


Assuming you are talking about heading into a relative headwind
here ..

The prop NEVER becomes a turbine, it ALWAYS works as a prop.
(think about it, it would mean the energy was going the wrong way,
from prop to wheels)

As the machine starts going a greater ratio of wind speed, it also
goes a greater speed over the ground, so the prop turns faster.
However, as the ratio increases, at some ratio the increase in speed
of the prop can't keep up with the increase in apparent headwind,
which determines what the max ratio of windspeed that the machine can
get to.
This ratio is determined by the gearing, and the pitch of the prop.
You might think to use a different gearing/pitch, set for a higher
ratio, but the problem would be that this would require more power
extracted from the wheels.
For a given cart, there will be an optimum gearing/pitch, beyond which
you cannot go.
Further, the optimum will have poor acceleration compared to a cart
which is geared for a lower ratio of windspeed (which is why I believe
they eventually went to a variable pitch prop on the actual cart)
 

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