Blank RF Probe tips

[MJC]

In article <46vmdcdgb2qu79l64s5cf9uobdrdbuj34g@4ax.com>,
oldschool@tubes.com says...

I was just reading recently that the earlier transistors were made with
germanium, but it is rare and thus costly so they changed to silicone.

Definitely silicon, not silicone. In chemistry, one letter makes a big
difference!

Mike.

 

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:55:24 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, analogdial wrote:

oldschool@tubes.com wrote:

Do any companies sell those blank RF probe tubes with metal tips? I
recall back in the 60s you could buy the entire probes with internal
parts as kits. They came with the same basic "shell" but had different
internal parts for different uses. The parts inside of them are basic.
Normally one diode and a resistor(s) or cap, or both.

I've found the schematics for several different probes, and I know that
some people build them in a pill bottle, or ink pen shell, or whatever,
but I'd like to find some of the REAL shells if they are sold.

Anyone know?

Thanks

The probe in the old ARRL handbooks was in the sort of shield and socket
used with 7 pin tubes. The pin connectors were removed from the socket
and a long screw was installed through the center tube of the socket.
All the RF probe parts were installed on a terminal strip which was held
to the socket by the screw which also served as the tip of the probe.


But it's no longer so easy to find tube sockets and shields. It looked
like a good idea back then.

But I did try making a probe, and I wasn't really pleased with the
results. It looked not so great.

I'd just go to a hobby store (they still exist) and hope to find some
brass tubing that was big enough and make probe case with that. If the
hobby store sells the brass tubing, then likely they sell small bits of
brass sheet, and one could make end caps with those.

For things that don't need shielding, old markers to work.

Michael

One of the kits linked in this thread, uses cpvc plumbing pipe, but they
cover it with adhesive copper foil. Thats a good idea. They have some
special caps on the ends, but I dont see why the pvc caps made for that
pipe would not work. Glue on the front one, leave the read one loose. or
put a little tape on it.

Copper plumbing pipe would make a good shell too, and the rear cap could
be a copper pipe cap with a rubber grommet drilled in (for the wire),
but I have not figured out what to use on the front that is
non-conductive, and still strong enough for the probe tip.

I was looking at some of the old Eico probes. I used to have some of
them (I wish I would have kept that stuff). There were 5 of them, all
color coded. Yellow was direct, blue was RF, Green was demodulator, red
was low capacity, and there was one more but I have not found pictures
of that one, or what it did.

Anyhow, I have a direct one, just coax with a regular probe on the
center lead and an aligator clip on the shield. But I want to make a RF
probe. I dont really see a need for a demodulator, or low capacity, but
I may in the future, now that I picked up a scope.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

RANT WARNING!

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 11:04:22 AM UTC-4, Foxs Mercantile wrote:

Snippage

On truth and democracy:
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there
always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been
a constant thread winding its way through our political and
cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy
means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

ISAAC ASIMOV, "A Cult of Ignorance", Newsweek, Jan. 21, 1980

As we are quoting fairly a learned writer, and one who also wrote a great deal of science fiction, here is an equally appropriate quote from another learned writer, who also wrote science fiction:

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant."

Harlan Ellison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Democracy arises only from exceeding wealth readily shared at every level of society. And even a brief look at other so-called democracies in this world, starting with India, and that obvious reality becomes clear. The United States is 21 (of 76) on a world scale, between Japan and Italy - both very recent converts to the title of 'democracy' on a world scale. A pretty sad condition for a so-called Beacon.

And to the extent that we fail to protect our least able citizens and residents, that is the extent to which we fail as a democracy. To the extent that we fail to educate our young to live, play, work and grow on the *WORLD STAGE* is the extent to which we fail as a nation to grow and participate in that world stage. We cannot go it alone - hell, we do not even make one single simple LDC screen in this country. We are a net-importer of agricultural goods (due, in large part, to the consumption of illicit pharmaceuticals), we cannot meet any of our most basic requirements from steel to energy to minerals to necessary pharmaceuticals to much of anything else solely from domestic sources - NOR CAN THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR THEMSELVES, EITHER.

So, we are necessary participants whether we recognize it or not. Best to learn about all this and understand it, rather than be caught blindsided by it, perhaps? We need to be smarter, harder working, faster, better educated, more thoughtful, less ignorant, cleaner and brighter than the rest of the world at every level of our society or we *will* fail. We need to make use of our incredible wealth, and not concentrate it into the hands of a very, very few - or we will lose all of it. We, the United States, are 5% of the world's population. Yet we consume just about 25% of the world's total resources.

Ignorance will not protect that primacy. Nor will denying the consequences and necessities of that primacy. For us to live as we live, individuals in China, North Korea, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Congo, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia, Haiti et.al. *MUST* live as they do.

Stop whining about what you don't begin to understand, stop living by received wisdom, and start to understand reality.

As we are quoting, here is another one:

“But you were always a good man of business, Jacob,' faltered Scrooge, who now began to apply this to himself.

Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The deals of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!”

Charles Dickens

America is no greater than the least of us.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 12:44:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:23:52 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
pfjw@aol.com> wrote:

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled
to your informed opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant."
Harlan Ellison

I beg to differ. I one did some work in a sausage factory (adjacent
to feed lot) which caused me to loose my taste for sausage. Believe
me, you do not want to know how sausage is made. If the public was
properly informed, the entire sausage industry would collapse. Better
ignorant than informed.

Oh, I dunno. I am of the belief that one should not engage in an activity unless one is willing to engage in the necessary and enabling first steps at some level more than theoretical.

Eat chicken much? Learn to kill, gut and pluck.
Eat meat much?
Eat fish much?

True, this society has gotten so far from the 'squeal' end of the process that those enjoying the bacon rarely have a clue. But it is that 'squeal' where reality starts in, and the moment that end-user loses the connection entirely, we are done as a society.

There is a working organic farm not far from our summer house run by a very hard-working couple who are also friends of ours. We have learned a great deal from them. But, until one is willing to put a bullet in the steer's brain, hoist it (no longer 'him') up on a pulley, gut, clean, skin, and butcher it, it is too abstract to be real. We have canine teeth for a reason, and we produce protein busting enzymes in our saliva for a reason. We need the intellectual as well as intestinal fortitude to live with the connections..

Having made sausage - I have no problems with the process.

The difference between ham and eggs?

The chicken is involved.
The pig is committed.

 

[Foxs Mercantile]

On 3/27/2017 10:59 PM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> It's the truth, and I have a thing called "Freedom of speech"!

Funny how the "freedom of speech" usually only applies to the
person claiming it.

I have a similar freedom, calling out people for being ignorant
assholes when they wish to publicly display it.

On truth and democracy:
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there
always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been
a constant thread winding its way through our political and
cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy
means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

ISAAC ASIMOV, "A Cult of Ignorance", Newsweek, Jan. 21, 1980




--
Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi
http://www.foxsmercantile.com

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 3:23:35 PM UTC-4, olds...@tubes.com wrote:

As far as all thge political discussions that evolved in this thread, I
have no further comments. I hate politics. However, I know it all began
when I made a comment about todays youth being fat and lazy.

If so, their parents are responsible, and we are either the parents or responsible for them.

Making us 100% responsible for the state of our youth - good, bad or indifferent.

Writing for myself, I am quietly proud of our kids, their kids and what eacn and ever one of them is doing with their lives - from second grade to senior partner. Not a fat one or a lazy one in the bunch.

Pretty much true of nephews, nieces and more.

A little bit of education does appear to help, however.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:04:02 -0500, Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>
wrote:

On 3/27/2017 10:59 PM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
It's the truth, and I have a thing called "Freedom of speech"!

Funny how the "freedom of speech" usually only applies to the
person claiming it.

He who yells the biggest, loudest, and longest, wins. These days,
freedom of speech mostly means WikiLeaks and commercial advertising.

I have a similar freedom, calling out people for being ignorant
assholes when they wish to publicly display it.

Let he who knows all cast the first complaint.

On truth and democracy:
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there
always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been
a constant thread winding its way through our political and
cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy
means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

ISAAC ASIMOV, "A Cult of Ignorance", Newsweek, Jan. 21, 1980

Yep. Just ask any voter for the names of their recently elected
officials. Most can name the president, and that's all. At best,
they remember the names, but not their associated office. In a way,
that's probably a good thing because if the GUM (great unwashed
masses) knew what was happening in government, we would have
continuous rioting and revolution. Political ignorance might be a
good thing.

Ignorance is worse in technical fields, and we're all to blame. As
technical areas such as computahs and electronics grow, the number of
buzzwords, acronyms, trade names, and calculations necessary to be
considered knowledgeable also grows. Jump into this maze of
technobabble, after an extended absence, and even the most intelligent
person will appear to be quite ignorant. I've had that experience
dealing with radiation, modern medicine, and cycling. I'm currently
providing a splendid example by making a fool of myself in another
newsgroup demonstrating my ignorance of lighting and optics. It's all
part of my "Learn by Destroying" paradigm, which in this case,
involves destroying my reputation. I'll survive. Would you call me
an ignorant asshole for failing to instantly assimilate the
accumulated wisdom of some 500 years of optics?

Part of the problem is that Mr Oldschool is not responding to
suggestions and answers to his questions. He usually drifts off on
another topic, as if all the effort people have put into answering his
questions was of no importance. Failure to appreciate is a capital
crime, and I certainly feel unappreciated as all my comments have not
even been acknowledged. So, I'll offer one last suggestion before I
give up.

The "classic RF probe" is a marginal and crude device that was long
ago replaced by far better amplified probes. The "classic RF probe"
quits at about 100MHz, has a rather lumpy frequency response, and will
load down high impedance circuits. If you have volts of signal to
work with in a tube device, it will work as expected. If you're
working on a modern low voltage device, you'll have problems. What's
better is a FET input RF probe, something like these, which can be
built:
<http://cjh.polyplex.org/electronics/RFCascodeProbe/>
<http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-1GHz-Active-Probe-for-Under-20/?ALLSTEPS>
If you must use tubes, I could probably design a cascode Nuvistor RF
probe for the occasion.




--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Foxs Mercantile]

On 3/29/2017 11:33 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

If you must use tubes, I could probably design a cascode
Nuvistor RF probe for the occasion.

Duly noted so your ego remains intact this time. ;-)

<http://bama.edebris.com/download/ameco/pcl-p/AMECO%20PCL.pdf>


--
Jeff-1.0
wa6fwi
http://www.foxsmercantile.com

---
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http://www.avg.com

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:23:52 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<pfjw@aol.com> wrote:

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled
to your informed opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant."
Harlan Ellison

I beg to differ. I one did some work in a sausage factory (adjacent
to feed lot) which caused me to loose my taste for sausage. Believe
me, you do not want to know how sausage is made. If the public was
properly informed, the entire sausage industry would collapse. Better
ignorant than informed.

It's like that in many areas, where carnal knowledge of the internal
workings and operations can be seriously repulsive. If you knew the
details of the private lives of historical figures, public
personalities, politicians, and actors, you would probably be
disappointed. Just meeting some of these in person can produce a
similar reaction. Better to believe the myth than to be disappointed
by the truth.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:42:41 -0500, Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>
wrote:

On 3/29/2017 11:33 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
If you must use tubes, I could probably design a cascode
Nuvistor RF probe for the occasion.

Duly noted so your ego remains intact this time. ;-)

Thanks. It's rather difficult to be diplomatic and insulting
simultaneously. I'm sure you're now planning how to retaliate.

><http://bama.edebris.com/download/ameco/pcl-p/AMECO%20PCL.pdf>

Nope. That's an RF amplifier. I went looking for an RF probe
schematic based on a Nuvistor, but couldn't find anything. There are
some TEK oscilloscope front end circuits that use a Nuvistor, that
could probably be converted into something useful. Basically, one
needs a broadband impedance converter. Cascode (common emitter
driving a common base) design seems right. It would take two 6CW4
Nuvistors, a length of 3/4" copper pipe, and some high voltage. If
that's to messy, a single tube in a cathode follower derangement
should work. It might get warm enough to be uncomfortable, but that's
the price we pay for working with tubes.

Nuvistors are cheap on eBay but sockets are pricy:
<http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nuvistor>
Hmmm... LTSpice models available for various Nuvistors.
Never mind. I don't need yet another project.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Michael Black]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The "classic RF probe" is a marginal and crude device that was long
ago replaced by far better amplified probes. The "classic RF probe"
quits at about 100MHz, has a rather lumpy frequency response, and will
load down high impedance circuits. If you have volts of signal to
work with in a tube device, it will work as expected. If you're
working on a modern low voltage device, you'll have problems. What's
better is a FET input RF probe, something like these, which can be
built:
http://cjh.polyplex.org/electronics/RFCascodeProbe/
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-1GHz-Active-Probe-for-Under-20/?ALLSTEPS
If you must use tubes, I could probably design a cascode Nuvistor RF
probe for the occasion.

I always found the AC probe on the HP 410B to be great. But that uses a
tube, a rectifier, right in the probe.

But you're probably right. A buffer would help, right where it's needed.
And probably wasn't common in the old days because of cost, or getting a
small tube in the probe. Or hobbyists never gave it much thought. SInce
a lot of this is about relative voltage, or tuning for peak, having a flat
buffer isn't even necessary.

Michael

 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:01:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Nope. That's an RF amplifier. I went looking for an RF probe
schematic based on a Nuvistor, but couldn't find anything. There are
some TEK oscilloscope front end circuits that use a Nuvistor, that
could probably be converted into something useful. Basically, one
needs a broadband impedance converter. Cascode (common emitter
driving a common base) design seems right. It would take two 6CW4
Nuvistors, a length of 3/4" copper pipe, and some high voltage. If
that's to messy, a single tube in a cathode follower derangement
should work. It might get warm enough to be uncomfortable, but that's
the price we pay for working with tubes.

Nuvistors are cheap on eBay but sockets are pricy:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nuvistor
Hmmm... LTSpice models available for various Nuvistors.
Never mind. I don't need yet another project.

For the record, I was ready to buy that kit from qrpkits.com, but found
out they do not recommend it for over 50V. I emailed the vendor and
asked if it could be upgraded for tube circuits. He told me that he can
not recommend that, because it could be a shock hazzard. Although I do
feel competent to make such a modification, I knew that would mean
spending more money, and wasting more time to build a usable probe.
Instead, I found a semi over priced old Eico RF probe (blue one) on
Ebay, and just paid the price. As soon as it comes, I'll be all set....

I never heard of using a nuvistor in a probe, but I am sure it's
possible. Seems kind of senseless though, when a simple diode along with
a few other parts will do the trick. Just because I prefer to work on
tubes, dont mean I wont use semi-conductors. For audio, tubes have a
superior sound. For my abilities and test gear, I'll take tubes any day
to work on. But I also do not mind working on older devices that contain
transistors, such as my XAM amp. It's the devices that contain IC chips
I detest. I'm not saying they are bad, and I am well aware my computer
and a lot of other stuff contain them. But I strongly dislike working on
that stuff. That was the main reason I stopped electronics in the late
70's as a hobby, and even more so as a repair business. It's not just
the fact that the stuff is very hard to work on, but also that parts are
far too hard to get.

As far as all thge political discussions that evolved in this thread, I
have no further comments. I hate politics. However, I know it all began
when I made a comment about todays youth being fat and lazy. That is my
opinion, and I see it all the time. Some of my very good friends have
kids who are now in their 20's and even their parents (my friends) say
the same thing. I see it all the time. That dont mean I am right, it's
just my opinion, buty I have a right to my opinion, and to express it
based on my "freedom of speech" as well as just saying what I feel. Then
again, there are a few exceptions. I know one young man who is a very
hard worker and he has a good head on his shoulders. But he is one in
100 or 1000. Most of today's youth have no goals. They spend their time
staring at their cellphones, work as little as possible (or not at all),
and eat as much as they can cram down their throats, and it shows!

However, none of that has anytrhing to do with the topic of this
newsgroup, aside from the fact that I would likely win a bet if I said
that no one on this group is under the age of 45. Today's youth dont
care to do electronics as a hobby. Nor do they care to do much of
anything that involves using their brains or muscles. But I am not gonna
join them. They can sit in their fancy restaurants and bars spending
their parents money, and talking on a cellphone to the person sitting
next to them. None of which makes any sense to me...... I'm just glad I
was born in the 50's when life still had meaning. My only complaint
about being born at that time is all the aches and pains I feel now!
Getting old sucks! But I doubt I need to explain that to any of you old
farts

 

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:54:10 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 3:23:35 PM UTC-4, olds...@tubes.com wrote:

As far as all thge political discussions that evolved in this thread, I
have no further comments. I hate politics. However, I know it all began
when I made a comment about todays youth being fat and lazy.

If so, their parents are responsible, and we are either the parents or responsible for them.

Making us 100% responsible for the state of our youth - good, bad or indifferent.

Writing for myself, I am quietly proud of our kids, their kids and what eacn and ever one
of them is doing with their lives - from second grade to senior partner. Not a fat one or a
lazy one in the bunch.

Pretty much true of nephews, nieces and more.

A little bit of education does appear to help, however.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I fully agree about the parents. But these days, you cant lift a finger
or you'll be charged with abuse. An old spanking stick still has it's
place. I know I got that stick several times and it was far from abuse.
It just made me think....

But it does go beyond the parents. There is a lot to blame on the
schools. From what I hear, most of them no longer have shop classes or
anything like that. Heck, when I was in HS, I took every shop class they
had. Wood shop, metal shop, motor shop, electronics shop, and more....
but I guess that stuff is "too dangerous" for kids these days. So,
instead of cutting off a finger on a table saw, the kids lose their
limbs from diabetes due to their obesity.... Or lose their lives from
drug abuse because they are so damn bored....

I never had any children, so I cant brag about them.... Glad yours
turned out good! But I will brag that my four legged kids are really
good! (And I do have a REAL kid, a pet goat)

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

All whiny Blather Snipped.

It comes down to the parents - 100% and without reservation. Schools, from pre-school to graduate school are mines, knowledge is extracted from them with effort, time and concentration. They do not "impart" knowledge at any level. And, the ore exists even in the poorest schools. It really does. Been there.

If parents prepare their children in that extraction process, they will learn. If the parents do not, they will not.

Shop Classes: That is a matter of community values. Shop classes require a dedicated staff, expensive tools, space and maintenance. If the community values the product of these classes, they will happen. It's called Taxes.

We pay very nearly $10,000/year in dedicated school taxes. It will be 2042 before we pay back the system for the education extracted by our two, even at that rate. And right now, we are investing in the next generation of kids and insuring that they have the same basic opportunities as ours did. A very simple concept.

Get over yourself. This is not an external problem. It is internal to all of us - what are our values? Are they essentially selfish? I have mine! Or are they focused on providing and supporting a community that will, in turn support us and our values into the future? I am 100% responsible for my condition in life, and good or bad, that is the way it is. There is no one to blame, nothing has been taken from me that I was unwilling to give, nor has anything been given to me other than opportunity. That is the difference between a democracy - and anything else. Ours, by the way, is threatened.

And, to twist the knife a little - neither of my parents spoke English as their first language. But despite all that, they provided me with infinite opportunity, and infinite support, and were excellent examples on how to work it out.

I have written this before, but sometimes the first application of the clue-stick does not take:

Keep in mind that the Average American:

Does not have a college education, including an Associate Degree (60%).
Does not have a passport (64%).
Speaks one language – badly (74%).
Has never traveled voluntarily more than 200 miles from his/her birthplace (57%).
Has never visited a foreign country, not even Mexico or Canada (71%).
Cannot name the Speaker of the House, even today (82%)
Cannot name the three branches of government (64%)
Cannot read at a college level (83%)
Cannot read for content (54%). This person cannot follow written-only directions.
60% of American Households do not buy any book in a year.
Does not believe in Evolution (42% creationism, 32% evolution, 26% no opinion).
Only 71.2% of eligible voters are registered.
Only 57.9% of registered voters voted in 2012.
Meaning that the average American eligible to vote does not vote (only 41.5% net). Not much changed in early statistics for 2016, although the change was to greater participation (44%). The Average American still does not vote.

This has not one damned thing to do with party, democrat, republican, libertarian, communist, green, whatever. It has to do with massive, systemic and deliberate neglect, and industrial-grade stupidity mixed equally with mil.Spec. ignorance.

Quit your bitching - and work it out. It really is you, so only you can change it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

MJC wrote:

In article <46vmdcdgb2qu79l64s5cf9uobdrdbuj34g@4ax.com>,
olds...@tubes.com says...

I was just reading recently that the earlier transistors were made with
germanium, but it is rare and thus costly so they changed to silicone.

Definitely silicon, not silicone. In chemistry, one letter makes a big
difference!

There's silica, silly and silly puddy, too.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Foxs Mercantile wrote:
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/132140338092>

That was sold. Here is a Heathkit probe:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/382023629649
Vintage-HEATH-Schlumberger-RF-PROBE-Model-PKW-3A-w-MANUAL-309-C/

Some of the old construction projects used aluminum cigar tubes,
which can be found on Ebay.

I use a Boonton 9200 Digital RF millivoltmeter. The probe has a pair
of diode, which are fed into a chopper circuit. It is good, past 800 MHz
and it has a very low input capacitance. A divide by 100 capacitive
divider/attenuator is also available. I have a couple of the older
Boonton 92 series analog meters, as well

--
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)