Bit of electronics for a change, circuits, chips! yummy jummy!...

[Ricky]

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:24:07 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
v26vghhlot2rjrgbi...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv...@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits


https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers
with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33
cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.
Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on cell balances.

You don\'t know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car, running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the entire rest of the car runs off that.

So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.

Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or 56 volts (don\'t recall the exact number). It never happened.


> Learn to think outside the box. Stop moaning.

You need to be within sight of the box or you end up solving a problem you don\'t have.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<e0350540-99d8-4ebc-b6ff-fe48a5ea949an@googlegroups.com>:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:


https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!

While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?

You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:30:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<ea2df0a6-bc3b-481c-a296-65ee0101928dn@googlegroups.com>:

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:24:07 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin

jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
v26vghhlot2rjrgbi...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv...@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits



https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers
with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33

cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller

motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck
converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.
Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on
cell balances.

You don\'t know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance
in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car,
running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor
and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the
entire rest of the car runs off that.


So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things

over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.

Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or
56 volts (don\'t recall the exact number). It never happened.


Learn to think outside the box. Stop moaning.

You need to be within sight of the box or you end up solving a problem you don\'t
have.

A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
Wiring is a one time issue.

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:


https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!

While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.

Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring as well as the current. That\'s why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually, the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize. It\'s always low enough that there\'s little economic reason to worry about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire could be used, but it has reached the point of \"who cares\".

That\'s what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It\'s a level of performance called, \"good enough\". No point in trying to guild the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:29:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:30:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
ea2df0a6-bc3b-481c...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:24:07 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin

jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
v26vghhlot2rjrgbi...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv...@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits



https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers
with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....

That\'s an ad, not an article, and it\'s full of annoying popups and 33

cookies.
Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.

Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller

motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

Well, its maaz


And they suggest that a window winder
motor will run at 800 volts.

When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck
converters.

The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
800 volts. Nonsense.
Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on
cell balances.

You don\'t know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance
in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car,
running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor
and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the
entire rest of the car runs off that.


So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things

over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.

Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or
56 volts (don\'t recall the exact number). It never happened.


Learn to think outside the box. Stop moaning.

You need to be within sight of the box or you end up solving a problem you don\'t
have.
A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
Wiring is a one time issue.

Yes, and I\'m sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because it also is cheaper... maybe.
Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It\'s one of those things that sound good on paper.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<da72c08f-1d06-46e1-967f-6c87e21ffc04n@googlegroups.com>:

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits


https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages


What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range
and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed

the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:



https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/


\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during

4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware

of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have

ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times

of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but

then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,

which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!


While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.

Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is
converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we
have here.

Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring
as well as the current. That\'s why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually,
the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize.
It\'s always low enough that there\'s little economic reason to worry
about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set
a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire
could be used, but it has reached the point of \"who cares\".

Sure,depends on the wire diameter,
many things from China come with a 110 V to 230 V spec, and some extra
adaptor to US mains sockets...
So for same wire dimensions more losses when at 110 V.
The water heater is a bit different case.

That\'s what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It\'s
a level of performance called, \"good enough\". No point in trying to guild
the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning
the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.

Just learned a new expression, according to the all-knowing (?) google
it is spelled \"gild the lily\' but anyways, got the point.

Well, as (IIRC) the article mentioned, more cars charging at the same spot
makes things a bit easier with lower currents..

I do think very high voltages have their own problem, 800 V and moisture (for example rain)
at a charging point needs special safety measures to prevent fire and electrocution...
Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.
My idea of every car an RTG would work, but DIY tinkerers would drill holes in those
not even mentioning collisions.

That leaves wind powered cars !!!
After all Columbus went all the way to \'merrica with wind power!

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<8f107716-7597-473b-bd98-bc9d0bbc99b5n@googlegroups.com>:

Yes, and I\'m sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in
efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because
it also is cheaper... maybe.
Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may
not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the
batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It\'s
one of those things that sound good on paper.

I dunno
take headlights
Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.

Spread those over a few cells, use 12 V headlights over 3 or 4 cells (whatever battery chemistry is used)
Power MOSFETs and optocouplers can switch on individual cell groups.
That is already some power, heating or airco maybe an other one.
All those switcher losses gone.
Sell as super-green!!

 

[server]

On Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:23:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc-b6ff-fe48a5ea949an@googlegroups.com>:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:


https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!

While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?

You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.

Did Ricky actually suggest that resistive heaters are more efficient
at higher voltages? Like the 800 volt motors? Would three phase 480
volts be three times as efficient? Hilarious.

Resistive heating of cold water is insane anyhow.

 

[server]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 7:11:54 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.
In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

Why not two (or more) 400V cables? It\'s doesn\'t take much time to plug and unplug multiple cables. 400V shock is painful. 800V could be deadly. I touched live 400V wires many times. Sometimes i can feel it, sometimes not.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
<t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

Using high voltages has its drawback...
Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
train railway
That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
in Dutch, but see the pictures:
https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html

It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
Rain at a charging station, things like that

 

[server]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:38:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

Using high voltages has its drawback...
Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
train railway
That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
in Dutch, but see the pictures:
https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html

It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
Rain at a charging station, things like that

A gasoline pump nozzle is about 4 megawatts equivalent.

That\'s 400 volts at 10,000 amps.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:38:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

Using high voltages has its drawback...
Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
train railway
That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
in Dutch, but see the pictures:
https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html

It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
Rain at a charging station, things like that

Google can translate whole web pages. Enter the following into
Chrome:

..<https://flevopost-nl.translate.goog/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en>


Joe Gwinn

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:24:48 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

...
While only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those. Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
....

A large proportion of California homes use gas for water heating. When electric power is used 240V is generally used. 480V wouldn\'t give any measurable improvement assuming the usual rules for sizing the wiring.

As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.

kw

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:46:19 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky

gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits


https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages


What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range
and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed

the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:



https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/


\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during

4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware

of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have

ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times

of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but

then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,

which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!


While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.

Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is
converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we
have here.

Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring
as well as the current. That\'s why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually,
the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize.
It\'s always low enough that there\'s little economic reason to worry
about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set
a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire
could be used, but it has reached the point of \"who cares\".
Sure,depends on the wire diameter,
many things from China come with a 110 V to 230 V spec, and some extra
adaptor to US mains sockets...
So for same wire dimensions more losses when at 110 V.
The water heater is a bit different case.

Yeah, you still aren\'t grasping that no one cares about the small wire losses. NO ONE CARES because it is not significant in the scheme of operation.

That\'s what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It\'s
a level of performance called, \"good enough\". No point in trying to guild
the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning
the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.
Just learned a new expression, according to the all-knowing (?) google
it is spelled \"gild the lily\' but anyways, got the point.

Well, as (IIRC) the article mentioned, more cars charging at the same spot
makes things a bit easier with lower currents..

Not sure what you are saying with that.

I do think very high voltages have their own problem, 800 V and moisture (for example rain)
at a charging point needs special safety measures to prevent fire and electrocution...
Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

You don\'t think they can manage that? From what I\'ve read, they are very efficient, more so than the cable it replaces, in fact.

There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.
My idea of every car an RTG would work, but DIY tinkerers would drill holes in those
not even mentioning collisions.

Hydrogen has its problems, but I haven\'t heard any references to Hindenburg until now.

That leaves wind powered cars !!!
After all Columbus went all the way to \'merrica with wind power!

It has been proven that a wind powered car can sail upwind, so the world is your oyster it would seem. As long as you have wind. So you many need very tall cars.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:30:11 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....

Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on cell balances.
You don\'t know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car, running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the entire rest of the car runs off that.

The HVAC system runs directly off the tract battery.

So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.
Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or 56 volts (don\'t recall the exact number). It never happened.
....

It was actually 42V (3 x 14v - the 12V system is actually about 14v) that was being promoted 15 years ago or so.

Some current cars do use 48V for relatively high power components such as active suspension, air conditioning and stop-start systems but as you say it is not at all as pervasive as being hyped.

kw

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:52:49 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
8f107716-7597-473b...@googlegroups.com>:
Yes, and I\'m sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in
efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because
it also is cheaper... maybe.
Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may
not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the
batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It\'s
one of those things that sound good on paper.
I dunno
take headlights
Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.

Spread those over a few cells, use 12 V headlights over 3 or 4 cells (whatever battery chemistry is used)
Power MOSFETs and optocouplers can switch on individual cell groups.
That is already some power, heating or airco maybe an other one.
All those switcher losses gone.
Sell as super-green!!

I\'m talking about the work required to keep the cells balanced. This is a bad idea, unless you want to add switches to move the loads around the battery pack. Very much overkill. Much easier to just use a down converter. In fact, having a good 12V system is so important, they add a 12V battery.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:19:24 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:23:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages

What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

Circuits!! Chips!!!
been so long....
Fun:


https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/

\"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
4 p.m. and p.m.\"

Fine. I only charge in a.m.

I don\'t know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!

While
only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?

You still do not see the high voltage issue
In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
no matter how high the voltage,
but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.

Did Ricky actually suggest that resistive heaters are more efficient
at higher voltages? Like the 800 volt motors? Would three phase 480
volts be three times as efficient? Hilarious.

Perhaps if you learned to read you would understand the sarcasm.

But Larkin was injured by something I said a long time ago, and has been looking for a dig ever since. He has a good grasp of some parts of electronics, but otherwise is a very immature and little person.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 10:11:54 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.
In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

There are 250 and 350 kW charging stations now.

The Tesla semi and other electric big rigs will need much larger power level. They may well be a much higher voltage, except I believe they are using the same motors as the model 3. So probably they will just use multiple cables. I believe that\'s what they do now. Someone showed a picture of an \"octopus\" cable for the Tesla semi.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 1:43:10 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
upsid...@downunder.com wrote in
t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits

https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
What\'s Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
Here\'s how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.
Using high voltages has its drawback...
Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
train railway
That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
in Dutch, but see the pictures:
https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html

It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
Rain at a charging station, things like that

Amps are not needed to kill you. The heart can be stopped by a few mA.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209