beware of the updates you install

[John Williamson]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"sctvguy1" wrote in message news:l5s281$d2p$3@dont-email.me...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:05:27 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Were you working there when Bill Gates was using OS/2 on his
own desktop?

I was there during the period of OS/2's brief popularity.

Was OS/2 particularly crash prone, or are you referring to the fact that
it needed the Presentation Manager for a graphic interface?

I took it as more of a suggestion that the owner and creator of
Microsoft didn't want to use a Microsft OS on his own machine.

Of course, it could just have been research to find out just how bad
OS/2 was....

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

 

[sctvguy1]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:07:28 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

"sctvguy1" wrote in message news:l5s281$d2p$3@dont-email.me...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:05:27 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

When people say that Windows is crash-prone, and/or often requires
reinstallation, I have to wonder what's going on. I've worked many
jobs at Microsoft, and have never seen this. I can only assume it's
due to some sort of user error, or badly written drivers.

Were you working there when Bill Gates was using OS/2 on his own
desktop?

I was there during the period of OS/2's brief popularity.

Was OS/2 particularly crash prone, or are you referring to the fact that
it needed the Presentation Manager for a graphic interface?

I'm saying that Gates used OS/2 for his own WindowsNT, which was not as
stable as the original. I still use OS/2, and have never had any but
minor problems. I also run the new version, called eComStation.

 

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <l5sidu$dan$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Trevor <trevor@home.net> wrote:

And use all your Windows software no more :-(
Linux is great if you are happy with the available software, or all you want
to do is surf the net. However I'm amazed that people who can successfully
install and run Linux can't keep a Windows box running.

They are philosophically very different to run and debug problems on. With
Linux, you can readily look inside and see what is going on, and so step by
step diagnosis is possible (and in fact is essential). On the other hand,
with Windows systems you can't really see what is going on inside the box
at all and if you attempt conventional step by step diagnosis you will only
get frustrated and angry. Windows diagnosis is basically done with a matrix
of problems and solutions... and the good news is that there are enough
Windows systems that a google search on a given problem will usually find you
a solution. That doesn't mean the person with the solution has any more idea
what is going on inside the box than you do, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Leif Neland]

Scott Dorsey tastede fřlgende:

In article <l5sidu$dan$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Trevor <trevor@home.net> wrote:

... Windows diagnosis is basically done with a matrix
of problems and solutions... and the good news is that there are enough
Windows systems that a google search on a given problem will usually find you
a solution.

Or often umpteen people with the same problem and no solution :-(

Leif

--
Husk křrelys bagpĺ, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

 

[dave]

On 11/08/2013 10:56 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

dave <dave@dave.dave> wrote:

BTW You can occasionally find a Nagra IV-S for under a hundred bucks
here nowadays.

I'll take all you can get at that price. Prices on those machines are
actually rising... they hit rock bottom a few years ago but they now seem
to be getting snapped up by collectors. I have been getting a lot of repair
work from guys buying the things who don't know what they are buying.
--scott

I'll check. We had a pile of them at the last place I worked. We
replaced them with Fostex time code digital recorders and ProTools type
DAWs on laptops.

 

[dave]

On 11/10/2013 12:22 PM, geoff wrote:

Side Job Scooter wrote:
I'm so glad I dumped Windows and switched to Linux back in 05.

Scott


I find it amusing that some peoples' OSs appear to give them stiffies.

Unless the OS is actually a (real, not just perceived or religous) problem,
the whole point is the APPLICATIONS !

geoff

For me it is more economic than anything else. (I guess I'm a bad
American because money doesn't give me a stiffie.) I build my own
machines and I do not appreciate MSFT charging me over $200 for a crappy
OS that only has one workspace. Windows is slow and not inspiring.

The Mac fanbois are the worst. I will agree about them.

 

[dave]

On 11/10/2013 04:53 PM, Trevor wrote:

"dave" <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gu6dnbycf7auh-DPnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
How do you justify paying $200 for a computer operating system that does
nothing but send you places that ask for money?

Well I've never paid $200 for Windows, and I use a firewall. *IF* all the
software I choose to use was available for Linux, AND all the drivers were
available for the hardware I choose to use, I'd happily run Linux on my
computers. Been waiting for a couple of decades for that to happen, and not
holding my breathe though.


The Windows world is like North Las Vegas. It is crass, commercial and
everyone has to get their hands dirty. I have a netbook with XP that I
need to talk to my iPod.

The Apple ipod itunes crap is the only problem, Windows works well with
every other MP3 player that I've ever used. But so does Linux for that
matter.

Trevor.

If your IOS device detects you trying to read the files with a 3rd party
app it will brick your device. You have to refill it. Major Pain!

Most games are written in Linux then ported to Windows. DirectX graphics
are then required. If Windows didn't have the proprietary graphics
library it would have died 10 years ago.

 

[dave]

On 11/10/2013 05:15 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <l5pacr$gpb$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Trevor <trevor@home.net> wrote:

In the days when computing power was far more limited than it is now, it was
a neccessity. But since I've had no problems doing all my multi-track audio
work on generic computers for the last decade, I'm not in a hurry to go down
the expensive, locked in, hope they might give you what you want/need
someday path ever again. Because so many others agree is why those systems
no longer sell.

The "throw more CPU power at it and hope it works" philosophy works fine
as long as there's plenty of CPU power for what you want to do. But how
long is that going to continue?

What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away.

 

[dave]

On 11/10/2013 05:31 PM, Trevor wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:l5pb3b$lep$1@panix2.panix.com...
In the days when computing power was far more limited than it is now, it
was
a neccessity. But since I've had no problems doing all my multi-track
audio
work on generic computers for the last decade, I'm not in a hurry to go
down
the expensive, locked in, hope they might give you what you want/need
someday path ever again. Because so many others agree is why those systems
no longer sell.

The "throw more CPU power at it and hope it works" philosophy works fine
as long as there's plenty of CPU power for what you want to do. But how
long is that going to continue?

Until the next "dark ages". Technology usually moves forward not backwards.


Some people might want a brand new Nagra tape machine too, but not enough
to
make it a commercially viable business plan it seems.

Dunno, Nagra seems to be doing pretty well right now. They don't sell a
lot
of analogue machines

Exactly, I specifically said "*tape* machine". Where are the new models?
Can't justify the development costs would be my guess.

Trevor.


Nagra makes a digital recorder the same size as the old magnetic machines.

 

[dave]

On 11/12/2013 05:59 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <l5sidu$dan$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Trevor <trevor@home.net> wrote:

And use all your Windows software no more :-(
Linux is great if you are happy with the available software, or all you want
to do is surf the net. However I'm amazed that people who can successfully
install and run Linux can't keep a Windows box running.

They are philosophically very different to run and debug problems on. With
Linux, you can readily look inside and see what is going on, and so step by
step diagnosis is possible (and in fact is essential). On the other hand,
with Windows systems you can't really see what is going on inside the box
at all and if you attempt conventional step by step diagnosis you will only
get frustrated and angry. Windows diagnosis is basically done with a matrix
of problems and solutions... and the good news is that there are enough
Windows systems that a google search on a given problem will usually find you
a solution. That doesn't mean the person with the solution has any more idea
what is going on inside the box than you do, though.
--scott

You are way more likely to need to fork over some moola to get the
answer with Win. The Linux ecosystem is not about generating profits; it
makes computing fun again. I'm about to install a 64 bit Mint customized
for Ham Radio on my friends old gaming machine. He is actually the one
who pays retail for Windows.,

 

[dave]

On 11/12/2013 03:14 AM, John Williamson wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"sctvguy1" wrote in message news:l5s281$d2p$3@dont-email.me...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:05:27 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Were you working there when Bill Gates was using OS/2 on his
own desktop?

I was there during the period of OS/2's brief popularity.

Was OS/2 particularly crash prone, or are you referring to the fact
that it needed the Presentation Manager for a graphic interface?


I took it as more of a suggestion that the owner and creator of
Microsoft didn't want to use a Microsft OS on his own machine.

Of course, it could just have been research to find out just how bad
OS/2 was....

Creator of Microsoft? Gates helped write CPM, a little bit of BASIC.
Quick and Dirty Operating System was bought pretty much turnkey. Since
then it's been Bill and Steve as Mr and Mrs Pacman, gobbling up other
people's ideas.

 

[dave]

On 11/11/2013 10:40 PM, Trevor wrote:

And use all your Windows software no more :-(
Linux is great if you are happy with the available software, or all you want
to do is surf the net. However I'm amazed that people who can successfully
install and run Linux can't keep a Windows box running.

Trevor.

Nobody said that, did they? It is easier to keep a Linux box running,
however. Ask anybody loving Android in their pocket or their PS3s in the
video game room.

 

[Michael Black]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013, dave wrote:

On 11/12/2013 03:14 AM, John Williamson wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"sctvguy1" wrote in message news:l5s281$d2p$3@dont-email.me...
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:05:27 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Were you working there when Bill Gates was using OS/2 on his
own desktop?

I was there during the period of OS/2's brief popularity.

Was OS/2 particularly crash prone, or are you referring to the fact
that it needed the Presentation Manager for a graphic interface?


I took it as more of a suggestion that the owner and creator of
Microsoft didn't want to use a Microsft OS on his own machine.

Of course, it could just have been research to find out just how bad
OS/2 was....


Creator of Microsoft? Gates helped write CPM, a little bit of BASIC. Quick
and Dirty Operating System was bought pretty much turnkey. Since then it's
been Bill and Steve as Mr and Mrs Pacman, gobbling up other people's ideas.

No, Swiftwater Bill had nothing to do with CPM.

Gary Kildall wrote CPM, over at Digital Research.

Bill and Microsoft were only about BASIC for some years, so common that
for a while just about any computer you could buy had a Microsoft BASIC
for it, many with it in ROM. Perhaps towards the end of that period they
had some other languages to offer.

When the IBM PC came along, they apparently went to Microsoft thinking
they put out CPM (I seem to recall one reason for this error was because
Microsoft did have a CP/M card for the Apple II, their first foray into
hardware), and so Microsoft sent them to Digital Research. Some foul up
(the stories vary) sent them back to Microsoft, to ask them if they could
make an operating system. That's when they bought QDOS from Seattle
Microsystems, and turned it into PCDOS.

Of course, QDOS is said to be similar to CPM.

Michael

 

[Scott Dorsey]

dave <dave@dave.dave> wrote:

On 11/12/2013 05:59 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

They are philosophically very different to run and debug problems on. With
Linux, you can readily look inside and see what is going on, and so step by
step diagnosis is possible (and in fact is essential). On the other hand,
with Windows systems you can't really see what is going on inside the box
at all and if you attempt conventional step by step diagnosis you will only
get frustrated and angry. Windows diagnosis is basically done with a matrix
of problems and solutions... and the good news is that there are enough
Windows systems that a google search on a given problem will usually find you
a solution. That doesn't mean the person with the solution has any more idea
what is going on inside the box than you do, though.

You are way more likely to need to fork over some moola to get the
answer with Win. The Linux ecosystem is not about generating profits; it
makes computing fun again. I'm about to install a 64 bit Mint customized
for Ham Radio on my friends old gaming machine. He is actually the one
who pays retail for Windows.,

Not really, that's the frustrating part from my standpoint. You _can't get_
direct systems programming support from Microsoft, no matter how much money
you spend.

I _like_ having a commercial operating system where I can call up on the phone
and talk to some guy who has the source code in front of him and can track down
exactly what is going on, and I don't mind paying for that service.

But Microsoft will charge you for support and have you talking to some guy
on the phone who doesn't know any more than you do about what is going on
inside the box... it takes many, many layers of escalation to talk to anyone
who has seen the source.

I would MUCH RATHER be able to pay money and talk to an expert than deal with
the catch-as-catch-can support that most Linux distributions have. But
Microsoft gives me the worst of both worlds.

Apple is not so bad... it's difficult to get in touch with people who really
know what is going on, but it's not impossible. It does cost money, but
that's what money is for, to pay people to do things you can't or don't want
to do.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Scott Dorsey]

dave <dave@dave.dave> wrote:

Creator of Microsoft? Gates helped write CPM, a little bit of BASIC.

No. Gates had nothing do with with CP/M, which was a a Digital Research
product. He was famous for producing what today we would call "layered
products" including a variety of standard BASIC interpreters for various
operating systems (including CP/M and RT-11, the system that CP/M was crudely
modelled after), as well as BASIC-in-ROM for a lot of systems.

Quick and Dirty Operating System was bought pretty much turnkey. Since
then it's been Bill and Steve as Mr and Mrs Pacman, gobbling up other
people's ideas.

Yes, Gates purchased SBC-DOS from Seattle Business Computing and resold it
as MS-DOS. That's how free markets work.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[D. Peter Maus]

On 11/11/13 17:29 , Jay Hennigan wrote:

On 11/7/13 2:30 PM, sctvguy1 wrote:

The only people who seem to love Windows, are techs who make money
"fixing" problems and re-installing everything when it gets infected.

With apologies to Edgar Allen Poe...

Once upon a Tuesday dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Installing the same version of Windows once more.
While I cursed the constant crashing, I made a fist and started bashing,
Started bashing the computer case and CD-ROM drive door.
"Piece of crap," I muttered, bashing the CD-ROM drive door,
"I will take this crap no more!"

Distinctly I do remember, when I bought my PC in December,
The marketing man said this software would crash no more.
Eagerly I wished to borrow a tool to inflict pain and sorrow
So that one day, perhaps tomorrow, I could go to my computer store
For the chance to make the salesman sell this crap no more.
Only this and nothing more.

So after wasting countless hours, I unplugged the beige mini-tower.
My day was looking very tragic like the old poetry of gothic lore,
But suddenly there came a tapping, rhymthic like the beats of rapping.
Actually, it sounded like flippers flapping, flapping at my apartment door.
"That is very odd," I muttered, "the time is nearly half past four,
Who is knocking on my door?"

The door was opened but it only revealed a penguin standing quite lonely,
Standing with a bag of CD-ROMs on the stoop before my apartment door.
I thought at first it was a delusion, for I was wrought with great confusion
Over the presence of a flightless Antarctic bird at my apartment door.
So I stood there, looking quite the fool, with my jaw down to the floor.
Then the bird said, "Pay no more!"

I thought to call the SPCA ... perhaps it escaped the zoo today.
But instead I brought the talking Aptenodytes forsteri inside my door.
He looked around, he looked at me ... and then he waddled to my PC.
I followed fast and I did see him place his disc in my drive door.
His program booted and began to install software I'd never seen before,
Then the bird said, "Pay No More!"

He brought me LINUX to install, said it rarely crashed at all.
Then he showed me some books while the software installed some more.
The interface, it looked like UNIX ... but 'twas much cheaper than QNX.
In fact, the code was open, so the source of bugs was hidden no more
It made wonder about the penguin's disc, behind my CD drive door ...
And why the bird said, "Pay No More."

So I tried this new installation, at first with fear and trepidation,
But soon I found it more stable than the OS I used before.
The files were in different places, and I put Linux through its paces
And very rarely made odd faces ... it didn't crash like Windows did before.
For this fat penguin made me see a way to use my computer as never before.
Then the bird said, "Pay No More!"

So once upon a morning sunny, I installed Linux for no money,
With the CD-ROM brought by a penguin to my apartment door.
After cursing the old installation, I reduced my overall frustration
And with a bit of determination I removed the software I used before.
Now I read Linux books and Web sites to use my free operating system more.
Quoth the penguin, "Pay No More."

Nicely done.

 

[Jeff Henig]

"Trevor" <trevor@home.net> wrote:

"geoff" <geoff@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:gZWdnTu8m-mm-B3PnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
Trevor wrote:
"geoff" <geoff@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:yMWdnUosR6msd-LPnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@giganews.com...

I find it amusing that some peoples' OSs appear to give them
stiffies.

Yeh, I find it amusing too, just like those who get stiffies whenever
Apple comes out with an expensive new product.

Unless the OS is actually a (real, not just perceived or religous)
problem, the whole point is the APPLICATIONS !

Dead right. I'm not only amused but annoyed they find it necessary to
mess with the desktop interface every time they bring out an update,
when all I want is the fastest way to get to the applications (with
support for all the new hardware technolgy since the last release).
Windows 8 sure aint it IMO :-(

Fortunately it's mostly easily-fixable for free.

www.classicshell.net .


Yes, not from MS of course, even the Win 8.1 update is pathetic, and Classic
shell is just a patch for a problem that should never have existed IMO. Give
touchscreen users the option by all means, but no need to remove what
already works for everybody else.

Trevor.

Preach it.

--
---Jeff

 

[William Sommerwerck]

dave, this is not meant to be personal or adversarial.

I have many years' experience with computers, and used to be a programmer. I
have never had any particular problems (other than a general "failure" of W2K,
for unknown reasons) with Windows. It runs, it works, and I'm willing to put
out the effort to make sure it's properly configured. (There are books on the
subject.)

Please give me some /good/ reasons why I should dump Windows and Windows
software, and switch to Linux -- other than "Linux good, Windows bad".

 

[Trevor]

"Leif Neland" <leif@neland.dk> wrote in message
news:mn.63967ddb8eaf56d7.130671@neland.dk...

Scott Dorsey tastede fřlgende:
In article <l5sidu$dan$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Trevor <trevor@home.net
wrote:
... Windows diagnosis is basically done with a matrix
of problems and solutions... and the good news is that there are enough
Windows systems that a google search on a given problem will usually find
you
a solution.

Or often umpteen people with the same problem and no solution :-(

Or just as often umpteen solutions to no real problem

Trevor.

 

[Trevor]

"dave" <ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6rKdnamSH_n_oR_PnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@earthlink.com...

The Windows world is like North Las Vegas. It is crass, commercial and
everyone has to get their hands dirty. I have a netbook with XP that I
need to talk to my iPod.

The Apple ipod itunes crap is the only problem, Windows works well with
every other MP3 player that I've ever used. But so does Linux for that
matter.

If your IOS device detects you trying to read the files with a 3rd party
app it will brick your device. You have to refill it. Major Pain!

Why I'd never buy an Apple device when there are lots to choose from that
work with any system.

Trevor.