Best GPS/sat-nav for Australia

[Toby Ponsenby]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:02:40 +1100, watchcat wrote:

"Penelope Plopworth" <msplopworth@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:43b3aeec$0$21385$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
I'm seeking a decent cost-effective GPS satellite navigation system for
use in Australia. I've got Bluetooth enabled Pocket PCs and laptops which
I could conceivably hook up, but most of the solutions I've seen which
utilize them seem overly messy.

What is the best program/system to use? Am I better off trying to use my
existing devices with some new software, or buy a new standalone device.
If so which one? I can get a basic Navman 320 unit for under $500, or the
Navman 4420 unit & software to plug into my PocketPC for around the same
price. Are Navman any good or are there better brands available?

All opinions appreciated.
I'm using a TomTom 300. If you really don't know where you are or how to get
somewhere (a frequent occurrence for me), it's a godsend, because it will
get you there - eventually. It's when you 'demo' it in a route that you
already know that you see some of the stupid decisions it makes. Mine is set
to take the shortest route and mostly out of curiosity, I had it running on
a drive i just completed from Adelaide to Canberra. Bloody great highway is
the most obvious route to take, but it kept wanting to take me along little
side roads and obviously had zero understanding of the purpose of bypass
roads. That trip is supposed to be a 12 hour journey, but if I'd followed
the TomTom directions, it would have been around 17 hours. I was not
overly impressed with it in Adelaide either. Didn't have a damn clue where
Hahndorf and that's not exactly a new town/suburb. Don't know how to
update the maps or even give feedback - their website is crap.

On the good side, the unit has very good sound and visibility and the
attaching device isn't too bad, but I'll still look at something different
next time, because the TomTom people really don't give a rats about service
and I don't see any hope of the aforementioned routing problems being fixed
by them.

Interesting.
But Id like to hear from 'anyone' wh can find any GPS nav firm that
manages to give even the impression of giving a rats arse about
'service'.
I really would.

--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

 

[Meat Plow]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:40:01 +1100, Penelope Plopworth wrote:

I'm seeking a decent cost-effective GPS satellite navigation system for use
in Australia. I've got Bluetooth enabled Pocket PCs and laptops which I
could conceivably hook up, but most of the solutions I've seen which utilize
them seem overly messy.

What is the best program/system to use? Am I better off trying to use my
existing devices with some new software, or buy a new standalone device. If
so which one? I can get a basic Navman 320 unit for under $500, or the
Navman 4420 unit & software to plug into my PocketPC for around the same
price. Are Navman any good or are there better brands available?

All opinions appreciated.

Does Magellan sell in your area? I have the Roadmate 300 "talks with
touchscreen" and you can load maps of anywhere on the planet on an SD
card. I have a PC GPS and a couple Garmin hand helds, one an eTrek Vista
which I mount on my Harley Davidson. I've found the Magellan to be
slightly more accurate for some reason.

 

[Toby Ponsenby]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:35:10 +1000, Graham Fountain wrote:

Map updates have to be bought. This isn't a TomTom issue, it is a Sensis
issue. Judging by updates for some of the GPS units that have been in
the market place longer, expect to pay somewhere in the vicinity of
$150-$200 for a map update. Again, this money isn't going into TomTom's
coffers, it is paying Sensis for their shite product. If you ask me they
have a damned hide asking any money for their maps they are so crap.
This is one area where we are far behind seppo-land. They have a freely
available public database of street information. Many GPS producers have
either free updates or just a token fee to cover map conversion costs.
BTW, TomTom's website is no worse than any of their competitors - says
less for their competitors than it does for tomtom. Actually a little
snooping around their website and you find little gems such as an update
for fixed speed camera locations.

Basically, you've just nutshelled why I don't own a car Nav device.

It's all about Sensis - IMHO the most comprehensively useless bunch of
arseholes yet uncovered on this planet.
I WILL NOT buy hardware what uses their product.
No matter what.
Because I know it's a waste of money.
Every time I ask anyone how their Sensis origin stuff works, I always
get an answer framed around the words 'it's alright, but......'

How fuken hard is it to get it right?
I Know Tel$tra has the national cadastra for their cable maps.
That's every single property, road - the works - all set up as survey
maps.
Somehow, despite monster expenditure on the matter in the early
nineties, somehow the information they have hasn't made if to their
retail GPS overlays. NO surprises there, and my bet is that those that
do have the correct stuff supplied pay MONSTER $$$ for it, and
probably have an agreement that the information so supplied will never
be released to the plebs. Which make is all about Money as well as
Face.
(Sorta like the Lightning strike information being delayed by 15
minutes for the benefit of Insurance Shysters.)

I believe the answer is going to have to be Google - eventually, and I
keep hoping they aren't made an offer they can't refuse by the Robber
Barons that infest this planet.
Somehow I think up to date photos overlaid with up to date survey
information is worth the wait and the data cost.
Because a Google monopoly is far less sinister that a Tel$tra GovCo
monopoly.
So far




--
Toby.
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur

 

[Alan K.]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:52:01 GMT, Toby Ponsenby <toby@privacy.net>
wrote:

I'm using a TomTom 300. If you really don't know where you are or how to get
somewhere (a frequent occurrence for me), it's a godsend, because it will
get you there - eventually. [Snip]
I was not
overly impressed with it in Adelaide either. Didn't have a damn clue where
Hahndorf and that's not exactly a new town/suburb. Don't know how to
update the maps or even give feedback - their website is crap.

On the good side, the unit has very good sound and visibility and the
attaching device isn't too bad, but I'll still look at something different
next time, because the TomTom people really don't give a rats about service
and I don't see any hope of the aforementioned routing problems being fixed
by them.

Interesting.
But Id like to hear from 'anyone' wh can find any GPS nav firm that
manages to give even the impression of giving a rats arse about
'service'.
I really would.

I made a similar point about NavMan in an aus.cars thread titled "GPS
Systems" in November.

It MAY be that they can't do much about the maps themselves since they
come from Senseless^w Sensis, a division of Telstra. Unfortunately
cartography ain't a cheap thing to do, and with Senseless having
locked up Universal Publishers (UBD, Gregory's), there aren't a LOT of
sources of Australian map data. (Especially if you want maps of the
whole country, rather than just the principal cities.) For all we
know, Senseless may well adhere to Telstra's apparent customer
"service" policy of "take what we overcharge you for, and be grateful
for it you damn proles". (Or at least that's been my experience with
them. That, and them trying to milk me for personal information every
time I have contact with them so that they can build their marketing
data base.)

In which case, any user feedback via NavMan to Senseless regarding
some of the maps' GLARING (if *relatively* infrequent) inaccuracies
COULD just be ignored anyway. However I would have thought that it
might, just possibly, be a good idea to at least ATTEMPT to solicit
customer feedback about mapping inaccuracies, since for most customers
they'll reflect negatively on NavMan rather than Senseless.

Further, at that time I didn't see Navman having ANY interest in
receiving feedback regarding the inadequacies of their own software
either, such as the mind-bendingly stupid "every roundabout is a
waypoint" one. If anyone from Navman is listening, ignoring customer
correspondence? It's probably not the BEST way to get good "word of
mouth", which you need more than ever now that there is more
competition in general, and (based on these threads over the last few
months) TomTom in particular.

However, I note a change since I last spoke! On the Technical Support
page there's now a "make a suggestion" dialog. Oh, nothing like a
"your map is wrong, here are the co-ordinates" dialog as you'll find
on other sites, no, just an "I would like to make a general
suggestion" page. I'd like to believe that it reflects a change in
attitude of NavMan, but unanswered correspondence suggests otherwise.

Are there any companies that do this right? Well, to begin with I give
you... GARMIN! Yes, not only does Garmin include the release dates of
their maps (memo to EVERY other supplier; that's a USEFUL piece of
information, don't you think? Or were the M7 and Cross-City tunnel
just a dream?), but they actually include a real, live link on the web
site to an "Error Report Form".

That's the good news.

The bad news is that (a) the source of the maps is again Senseless,
(b) I'm not clear about the extent of detail available in areas
between the major urban areas (the main page for the Australian maps
highlight only 21 urban areas, but there DOES seem to be street level
detail for some towns outside those areas) and (c) it's also not clear
whether these maps allow the "3D angled" approach that most users
probably prefer, or whether the maps can only be displayed in a 2D
format. I'm sure the distributor could cover those details but in any
case, the presence of a map error feedback form is a sign that their
customer service "heart" is in the right place.

And another; Destinator Australia. Their feedback form is dedicated to
"how, what, where, when" mapping errors, which presumably reflects a
desire to fix them.

Then there's TomTom, whose FAQ page includes the question "Why do I
sometimes find map errors in TomTom products?" The answer is: "In
order to obtain the correct map data, TomTom and its map suppliers,
rely on local government and other local organisations across the
whole of Europe to supply us with the correct, relevant and most up to
date information for millions of roads, streets and lanes.

There are only a few map suppliers in the world that have good map
data, one of them being TeleAtlas. On average, 5% of all European
roads are changed; our map supplier has hundreds of people driving
through Europe and analyzing satellite images to register these
changes. This process is time consuming and a logistical challenge.
This is also the case for all map feedback our TomTom customers submit
via our website. These map reports are passed on to our digital map
suppliers, who will then in many cases, physically visit the location
to register a different situation."

Of course I have a problem imagining Senseless getting off their
oligarchic butts and doing this, but still...

I noticed Watchcat's comments about the TomTom web site, but I found
it to be fairly well laid out and the feedback section was quite
expansive, even if not quite as direct (for map errors) as either
Destinator's or Garvin's. However I have no way of knowing when
Watchcat last saw the site; as I've indicated, NavMan's has changed a
bit over the last few months as well.

Back when I bought my PiN, there was Navman and that was about it. (At
least in terms of portable, in car units.) Now that there's a lot more
competition (in units, if not in maps unfortunately), the idea that
listening to customer feedback and trying to improve the products may
be A Good Idea would seem to be catching on. We'll see...

 

[Alan K.]

I'm re-posting this because the useless pile of {cough} that is
iPrimus' news feed apparently decided to take a holiday yesterday.
Nothing came in and, it seems (since the original post is still absent
from this thread on Google) nothing went out either.

Apologies if you've seen it before, but I doubt that'll apply to
anyone who isn't on iPrimus.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:38:45 +1100, Alan K. <No@Spam.For.Me> wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:52:01 GMT, Toby Ponsenby <toby@privacy.net>
wrote:

I'm using a TomTom 300. If you really don't know where you are or how to get
somewhere (a frequent occurrence for me), it's a godsend, because it will
get you there - eventually. [Snip]
I was not
overly impressed with it in Adelaide either. Didn't have a damn clue where
Hahndorf and that's not exactly a new town/suburb. Don't know how to
update the maps or even give feedback - their website is crap.

On the good side, the unit has very good sound and visibility and the
attaching device isn't too bad, but I'll still look at something different
next time, because the TomTom people really don't give a rats about service
and I don't see any hope of the aforementioned routing problems being fixed
by them.

Interesting.
But Id like to hear from 'anyone' wh can find any GPS nav firm that
manages to give even the impression of giving a rats arse about
'service'.
I really would.

I made a similar point about NavMan in an aus.cars thread titled "GPS
Systems" in November.

It MAY be that they can't do much about the maps themselves since they
come from Senseless^w Sensis, a division of Telstra. Unfortunately
cartography ain't a cheap thing to do, and with Senseless having
locked up Universal Publishers (UBD, Gregory's), there aren't a LOT of
sources of Australian map data. (Especially if you want maps of the
whole country, rather than just the principal cities.) For all we
know, Senseless may well adhere to Telstra's apparent customer
"service" policy of "take what we overcharge you for, and be grateful
for it you damn proles". (Or at least that's been my experience with
them. That, and them trying to milk me for personal information every
time I have contact with them so that they can build their marketing
data base.)

In which case, any user feedback via NavMan to Senseless regarding
some of the maps' GLARING (if *relatively* infrequent) inaccuracies
COULD just be ignored anyway. However I would have thought that it
might, just possibly, be a good idea to at least ATTEMPT to solicit
customer feedback about mapping inaccuracies, since for most customers
they'll reflect negatively on NavMan rather than Senseless.

Further, at that time I didn't see Navman having ANY interest in
receiving feedback regarding the inadequacies of their own software
either, such as the mind-bendingly stupid "every roundabout is a
waypoint" one. If anyone from Navman is listening, ignoring customer
correspondence? It's probably not the BEST way to get good "word of
mouth", which you need more than ever now that there is more
competition in general, and (based on these threads over the last few
months) TomTom in particular.

However, I note a change since I last spoke! On the Technical Support
page there's now a "make a suggestion" dialog. Oh, nothing like a
"your map is wrong, here are the co-ordinates" dialog as you'll find
on other sites, no, just an "I would like to make a general
suggestion" page. I'd like to believe that it reflects a change in
attitude of NavMan, but unanswered correspondence suggests otherwise.

Are there any companies that do this right? Well, to begin with I give
you... GARMIN! Yes, not only does Garmin include the release dates of
their maps (memo to EVERY other supplier; that's a USEFUL piece of
information, don't you think? Or were the M7 and Cross-City tunnel
just a dream?), but they actually include a real, live link on the web
site to an "Error Report Form".

That's the good news.

The bad news is that (a) the source of the maps is again Senseless,
(b) I'm not clear about the extent of detail available in areas
between the major urban areas (the main page for the Australian maps
highlight only 21 urban areas, but there DOES seem to be street level
detail for some towns outside those areas) and (c) it's also not clear
whether these maps allow the "3D angled" approach that most users
probably prefer, or whether the maps can only be displayed in a 2D
format. I'm sure the distributor could cover those details but in any
case, the presence of a map error feedback form is a sign that their
customer service "heart" is in the right place.

And another; Destinator Australia. Their feedback form is dedicated to
"how, what, where, when" mapping errors, which presumably reflects a
desire to fix them.

Then there's TomTom, whose FAQ page includes the question "Why do I
sometimes find map errors in TomTom products?" The answer is: "In
order to obtain the correct map data, TomTom and its map suppliers,
rely on local government and other local organisations across the
whole of Europe to supply us with the correct, relevant and most up to
date information for millions of roads, streets and lanes.

There are only a few map suppliers in the world that have good map
data, one of them being TeleAtlas. On average, 5% of all European
roads are changed; our map supplier has hundreds of people driving
through Europe and analyzing satellite images to register these
changes. This process is time consuming and a logistical challenge.
This is also the case for all map feedback our TomTom customers submit
via our website. These map reports are passed on to our digital map
suppliers, who will then in many cases, physically visit the location
to register a different situation."

Of course I have a problem imagining Senseless getting off their
oligarchic butts and doing this, but still...

I noticed Watchcat's comments about the TomTom web site, but I found
it to be fairly well laid out and the feedback section was quite
expansive, even if not quite as direct (for map errors) as either
Destinator's or Garvin's. However I have no way of knowing when
Watchcat last saw the site; as I've indicated, NavMan's has changed a
bit over the last few months as well.

Back when I bought my PiN, there was Navman and that was about it. (At
least in terms of portable, in car units.) Now that there's a lot more
competition (in units, if not in maps unfortunately), the idea that
listening to customer feedback and trying to improve the products may
be A Good Idea would seem to be catching on. We'll see...

 

[Mike Paull]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:40:01 +1100, "Penelope Plopworth"
<msplopworth@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm seeking a decent cost-effective GPS satellite navigation system for use
in Australia. I've got Bluetooth enabled Pocket PCs and laptops which I
could conceivably hook up, but most of the solutions I've seen which utilize
them seem overly messy.

What is the best program/system to use? Am I better off trying to use my
existing devices with some new software, or buy a new standalone device. If
so which one? I can get a basic Navman 320 unit for under $500, or the
Navman 4420 unit & software to plug into my PocketPC for around the same
price. Are Navman any good or are there better brands available?

All opinions appreciated.

I've had a Navman Pin for the last couple of years and am very impressed
with it. While the SmartST software may not have all the bells and whistles
of the newer devices out there, it does what I ask of it, which is to get
me from point A to point B, and it does that very well and with a minimum
of fuss.

Recently i've played with Destinator, CoPilot and the TomTom software and
while they do offer some nice features over Smart ST, such as day and night
modes for display, I always end up going back to SmartST. The reason being,
I find the way the maps are presented is a little clearer and more detailed
than the others. As I said earlier, my needs are simple and it meets them
easily.

Newer model Pin's ( the Pin 570 ) now have SmartST 2005 which I have not
used a great deal, but it appears to be a worthy upgrade over the previous
software.

The unit itself has performed flawlessly and I appreciate the fact it's a
Pocket PC based device and have used it as such.

Overall i'm extreemly happy with it.

Mike