F
Fester Bestertester
Guest
FINALLY an answer on-topic. Thank you.
After watching the 3 Stooges act that is aee / sed...
Sheesh!
I AM FBt
After watching the 3 Stooges act that is aee / sed...
Sheesh!
I AM FBt
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 18, 3:13 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
disagrees with. Someone who took him seriously might be upset by it.
This strikes me as information that Proteus IIV might find useful.
If I felt like heaping abuse on Jim Thompson I'd be more explicit
about it.
the defensive is amusing. Not as amusing as the idea that you might
ever have consulted a text-book, but distinctly comical all the same.
But we can rely on you for seriously side-splitting - if unintentional
- comedy. The clown who still thinks that the 555 is the answer to
every circuit problem imagines that he can call somebody else a
fatuous ass.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Jim Thompson is notoriously enthusiastic about plonking people he
disagrees with. Someone who took him seriously might be upset by it.
This strikes me as information that Proteus IIV might find useful.
If I felt like heaping abuse on Jim Thompson I'd be more explicit
about it.
The image of the incorrigibly offensive John Fields ever being put on
the defensive is amusing. Not as amusing as the idea that you might
ever have consulted a text-book, but distinctly comical all the same.
But we can rely on you for seriously side-splitting - if unintentional
- comedy. The clown who still thinks that the 555 is the answer to
every circuit problem imagines that he can call somebody else a
fatuous ass.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
Wrapping a clamp-on meter around one line means that there is current
circulating around the clamp - the current that goes through the
selected line in one direction is matched by equal and opposite
current flowi g through the other lines in the other direction. The
coupling coefficient is unlikely to be good, but it is finite.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Since the original claim wasOn Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat@4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67@4ax.com
5uA... nice!
Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...
Nope, it'll get you nothing.
Know why?
Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?
---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field.
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current throughwatts.
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
Wrapping a clamp-on meter around one line means that there is current
circulating around the clamp - the current that goes through the
selected line in one direction is matched by equal and opposite
current flowi g through the other lines in the other direction. The
coupling coefficient is unlikely to be good, but it is finite.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 18, 2:46 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
you might extract some of the power circulating through the wire and
produce an active solution without an external power source.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
If one can rely on that "passive". Someone who knew a little more than
you might extract some of the power circulating through the wire and
produce an active solution without an external power source.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
P
Pointless Posts
Guest
Fester Bestertester wrote:
you stop to consider the possibility that a) you failed to grasp
other attempts to explain it to you; b) your question was so
elementary for *this* group that few people bothered; c) your
last post might be taken as a slap in the face by those who tried
to help.
Admitted that the S/N ratio on Usenet can be frustrating. But did
you stop to consider the possibility that a) you failed to grasp
other attempts to explain it to you; b) your question was so
elementary for *this* group that few people bothered; c) your
last post might be taken as a slap in the face by those who tried
to help.
J
John Fields
Guest
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:46:00 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---
Yeah, but so what???
What he was talking about was wrapping some turns around the conductor,
like this:
.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO
..----------------------
..
..----------------------
.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO
Where the dashed lines represent one of the power conductors and the
'O's represent the "some turns" wrapped around it.
Do you think current will be induced in the solenoid if it's wound that
way?
JF
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
---On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat@4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67@4ax.com
5uA... nice!
Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...
Nope, it'll get you nothing.
Know why?
Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?
---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field.
Since the original claim was
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
watts.
This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---
---
Yeah, but so what???
What he was talking about was wrapping some turns around the conductor,
like this:
.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO
..----------------------
..
..----------------------
.. OOOOOOOOOOOOO
Where the dashed lines represent one of the power conductors and the
'O's represent the "some turns" wrapped around it.
Do you think current will be induced in the solenoid if it's wound that
way?
JF
J
John Fields
Guest
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:36:17 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
Bullshit, liar.
What you were doing was telling P3 to clean up his act or you'd plonk
him, and then, out of the blue, you just _had_ to take another little
snipe at Jim.
I guess you just can't get over his reporting you to the FBI, huh?
---
Geez, Bill, I get along pretty well with most everyone here and post
mostly on topic, while you seem to be perpetually offensive to
_everyone_ and on topic about 1% of the time, so I think a _big_ PKB is
in order at this point.
---
Geez, Bill, even if it were true that I thought the 555 was the be-all
end-all circuit design element you say I think it is, that doesn't make
you any less of a fatuous ass, does it?
JF
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
---
Bullshit, liar.
What you were doing was telling P3 to clean up his act or you'd plonk
him, and then, out of the blue, you just _had_ to take another little
snipe at Jim.
I guess you just can't get over his reporting you to the FBI, huh?
---
---
Geez, Bill, I get along pretty well with most everyone here and post
mostly on topic, while you seem to be perpetually offensive to
_everyone_ and on topic about 1% of the time, so I think a _big_ PKB is
in order at this point.
---
---
Geez, Bill, even if it were true that I thought the 555 was the be-all
end-all circuit design element you say I think it is, that doesn't make
you any less of a fatuous ass, does it?
JF
J
John Fields
Guest
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:50:08 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
Can't come up with anything, huh? What a surprise!!!
---
I guess that'll keep you out of the running, n'est-ce pas?
JF
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
---
Can't come up with anything, huh? What a surprise!!!
---
---
I guess that'll keep you out of the running, n'est-ce pas?
JF
F
Fester Bestertester
Guest
Right you are.
A big thank you to those responders who gave answers to my question. Much
appreciated.
My comment was addressed to the "noise".
FBt
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 18, 9:20 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
plonk him
how seriously far out of touch with reality that proved him to be, he
probably wouldn't have done it. I know he is conscious of his duty to
protect his country, but it isn't as if he is fanatical about it.
Even you will have to admit it has to be the funniest prat-fall we've
ever had around here.
times when I've imagined that you lack a sense of humour, but that
really is funny. Nice one.
electronics either.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
I don't plonk anybody, and I certainly wasn't threatening that I'd
plonk him
If he'd known how much pleasure I was going to get out of pointing how
how seriously far out of touch with reality that proved him to be, he
probably wouldn't have done it. I know he is conscious of his duty to
protect his country, but it isn't as if he is fanatical about it.
Even you will have to admit it has to be the funniest prat-fall we've
ever had around here.
Nice to see you sending yourself up from time to time. There have been
times when I've imagined that you lack a sense of humour, but that
really is funny. Nice one.
Or any more. Your judgement isn't all that great outside of
electronics either.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 18, 8:45 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
<snipped the rest>
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Nice try.On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:46:00 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman
bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat@4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67@4ax.com
5uA... nice!
Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi....
Nope, it'll get you nothing.
Know why?
Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?
---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field.
Since the original claim was
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
watts.
This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
---
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---
<snipped the rest>
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 18, 6:08 pm, Fester Bestertester <f...@fbt.net> wrote:
one, and I'm not sure that I've even seen one, which discouraged me
from trying to improvise an explanation.
John Field's response - now that he has finally got around to making
the kind of useful post that he claims to represent the bulk of his
output - does seem to be plausible.
From time to time we get responses from the people who designed the
gear under discussion, but you don't seem to have been that lucky.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
You asked about the Fluke i200s current clamp probe. I've never used
one, and I'm not sure that I've even seen one, which discouraged me
from trying to improvise an explanation.
John Field's response - now that he has finally got around to making
the kind of useful post that he claims to represent the bulk of his
output - does seem to be plausible.
From time to time we get responses from the people who designed the
gear under discussion, but you don't seem to have been that lucky.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
J
John Nagle
Guest
Bill Sloman wrote:
"turn" through the clamp, many turns in the fixed coil for output.
The output feeds into a voltmeter.
Those are AC-only devices. There are also Hall-effect clamp-on
ammeters, and those work for both AC and DC. These have been
available for a decade or so, and pricing is now down as low as
$60. I used to have one that could read down to about 500mA DC,
and it only cost $129. Very useful in robotics and controls work.
John Nagle
Yes. Classic AC clamp-on ammeters are simply transformers. One
"turn" through the clamp, many turns in the fixed coil for output.
The output feeds into a voltmeter.
Those are AC-only devices. There are also Hall-effect clamp-on
ammeters, and those work for both AC and DC. These have been
available for a decade or so, and pricing is now down as low as
$60. I used to have one that could read down to about 500mA DC,
and it only cost $129. Very useful in robotics and controls work.
John Nagle
D
DaveC
Guest
[...]
someone else's favorite tools...
Dave
Which make & model would that $129 model be? It's always useful to know
someone else's favorite tools...
Dave
T
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
Guest
? "Fester Bestertester" <fbt@fbt.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:0001HW.C7279C6F0007F514B08A39AF@news.eternal-september.org...
the two current transformers, without any other power supply (medium
voltage=15 kV in Crete).
--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr
news:0001HW.C7279C6F0007F514B08A39AF@news.eternal-september.org...
consumer (real and reactive energy) are powered from the two potential and
the two current transformers, without any other power supply (medium
voltage=15 kV in Crete).
--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr
J
John Fields
Guest
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:08:46 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
Of course, you fraud, since by snipping the rest you sidestep the issue,
which is your ignorance in believing that a solenoid wound around an
alternating current carrying conductor can be used to extract power from
the varying magnetic field surrounding that conductor.
Nothing could be further from the truth, as demonstrated here:
news:26iag5hjpub42ookl0nk74vc3ffgs7316q@4ax.com
Since, conveniently, you don't have access to abse, I'll take the
liberty of emailing you the photos as soon as I post this.
Enjoy.
JF
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
---On Nov 18, 8:45 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:46:00 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman
bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat@4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67@4ax.com
5uA... nice!
Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...
Nope, it'll get you nothing.
Know why?
Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?
---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field.
Since the original claim was
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
watts.
This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
---
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---
Nice try.
snipped the rest
Of course, you fraud, since by snipping the rest you sidestep the issue,
which is your ignorance in believing that a solenoid wound around an
alternating current carrying conductor can be used to extract power from
the varying magnetic field surrounding that conductor.
Nothing could be further from the truth, as demonstrated here:
news:26iag5hjpub42ookl0nk74vc3ffgs7316q@4ax.com
Since, conveniently, you don't have access to abse, I'll take the
liberty of emailing you the photos as soon as I post this.
Enjoy.
JF
F
Fester Bestertester
Guest
So, for a millivolt output probe, this might be as simple as 2 windings (or a
tapped single winding) with a range switch to select the winding?
tapped single winding) with a range switch to select the winding?
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:29:26 -0800, Fester Bestertester <fbt@fbt.net>
wrote:
burden resistor, to convert their output current into voltage. I'm
sure the Fluke clamp-on has an internal burden resistor, and they may
switch that to change ranges.
Without a burden resistor, the output voltage will be proportional to
frequency and very dependent on core reluctance, which would be fatal
for a clamp-on meter with a hinge and a non-repeatable air gap.
Coreless Rogowsky coils are used unloaded, but need a downstream
integrator to accurately measure current.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogowski_coil
The coolest current transformer is a second-harmonic DCCT, accurate to
parts-per-million from DC to many kilohertz.
http://www.gmw.com/electric_current/Danfysik/866_867/867.html
John
wrote:
Current transformers are usually dumped into a load resistor aka
burden resistor, to convert their output current into voltage. I'm
sure the Fluke clamp-on has an internal burden resistor, and they may
switch that to change ranges.
Without a burden resistor, the output voltage will be proportional to
frequency and very dependent on core reluctance, which would be fatal
for a clamp-on meter with a hinge and a non-repeatable air gap.
Coreless Rogowsky coils are used unloaded, but need a downstream
integrator to accurately measure current.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogowski_coil
The coolest current transformer is a second-harmonic DCCT, accurate to
parts-per-million from DC to many kilohertz.
http://www.gmw.com/electric_current/Danfysik/866_867/867.html
John
G
George Herold
Guest
On Nov 19, 11:40 am, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
Wiki's great thanks John. That second link didn't have much info on
how the device works. Is the following the same thing?
http://adweb.desy.de/mdi/CARE/Lyon/Lyon%20DCCT_Technology_Review.pdf
(I googled second-harmonic DCCT)
George H.
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
Wiki's great thanks John. That second link didn't have much info on
how the device works. Is the following the same thing?
http://adweb.desy.de/mdi/CARE/Lyon/Lyon%20DCCT_Technology_Review.pdf
(I googled second-harmonic DCCT)
George H.
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On Nov 19, 3:18 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
never made any such claim. My scepticism about you claim was purely
based on the fact that you were ignoring what Joel Koltner had
actually said.
actually doing, but since I couldn't care less, this isn't any great
loss.
The joke is that even if you do extract "many watts" from the power
company's power lines, you won't be stealing from them. In order to be
able to extract power you have to be drawing power for which you will
be billed, and any extra watts you extract by transformer action is
subtracted from the power you are already paying for - your paid for
load will be seeing a lower drive voltage.
Joel Koltner made a rather good joke, which you have totally failed to
get.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Your enthusiasm for inventing implausible straw men knows no bounds. IOn Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:08:46 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman
bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 18, 8:45 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:46:00 -0800 (PST),Bill Sloman
bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:
On Nov 17, 9:28 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:59:38 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Fields" <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:sir5g5h9h69vfurapjd9e2kn8efeod8qat@4ax.com...
news:7ar5g59hdrcdpu3icb3rlmdn31iqiqfa67@4ax.com
5uA... nice!
Seems that someone on eBay is selling a +/-5uA movement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Weston-Bakelite-Glass-5ua-microamp-Panel-Meter-Hi...
Nope, it'll get you nothing.
Know why?
Because the federales will toss your rear in jail quite rapidly?
---
Nope, because the magnetic field generated by the power line will never
cut the conductor wrapped around it since the conductor will be
essentially perpendicular to the varying field.
Since the original claim was
" >Wrapping some turns around the power company's lines will get you
many, many
watts.
This isn't the reason - lines is plural and the nett current through
the lines as a bunch balances out to zero.
---
Since that's obvious to the most casual observer, the context of his
statement must have been about wrapping some turns around [one] of the
power company's lines, which I addressed by referring to it as "the
power line".
---
Nice try.
snipped the rest
---
Of course, you fraud, since by snipping the rest you sidestep the issue,
which is your ignorance in believing that a solenoid wound around an
alternating current carrying conductor can be used to extract power from
the varying magnetic field surrounding that conductor.
never made any such claim. My scepticism about you claim was purely
based on the fact that you were ignoring what Joel Koltner had
actually said.
The pictures were perfectly clear. It was less obvious what you wereNothing could be further from the truth, as demonstrated here:
news:26iag5hjpub42ookl0nk74vc3ffgs7316q@4ax.com
Since, conveniently, you don't have access to abse, I'll take the
liberty of emailing you the photos as soon as I post this.
Enjoy.
actually doing, but since I couldn't care less, this isn't any great
loss.
The joke is that even if you do extract "many watts" from the power
company's power lines, you won't be stealing from them. In order to be
able to extract power you have to be drawing power for which you will
be billed, and any extra watts you extract by transformer action is
subtracted from the power you are already paying for - your paid for
load will be seeing a lower drive voltage.
Joel Koltner made a rather good joke, which you have totally failed to
get.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen