Batteriser claims to be able to extend disposable battery li

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctck0mFi6rfU2@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:25 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcd0rFgnlaU2@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html







I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA





states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops
to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step
up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in
the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use
a boost converter.

Irrelevant to whether a boost converter can see the
device powered by that battery for longer than the
battery will power the device without it.

Very relevant to the question of whether the usual suspects are seeking to
nitpick the issue to death,
Click to expand...

No one is nitpicking anything to death, JUST rubbing
your nose in the FACT that your claim is just plain wrong.

> so as to avoid any real conclusion.

Another bare faced lie. The conclusion is that it is perfectly
possible to do what the Batteriser claims to do in the sense
that it is perfectly possible to get more life out of a battery
than it is possible to get without using it.

And there isnt necessarily any determent at all except that
it is certainly possible that a battery run down much more
than it would normally be is more likely to leak with the
cheapest batterys.
 
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html







I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA





states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.
Click to expand...

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sylvia.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html







I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA





states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator
to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump
the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.
Click to expand...

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.
 
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html








I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA






states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.
Click to expand...

I don't know about "normally", but in any case, there are significant
drops in current for reasons entirely unrelated to the voltage being too
low, so no inference can be drawn.

Sylvia.
 
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html






I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA




states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.
Click to expand...

You raised constant current devices.
(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.
Click to expand...

And the relay coil is powered how?

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.
Click to expand...

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient. The proposed
implementation just maintains a voltage similar to the voltage on a
fresh cell, and is wasting energy thereby to the extent that voltage is
higher than necessary.

Sylvia
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcd0rFgnlaU2@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html






I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA




states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such as
AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the power
to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery powered
devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use a boost
converter.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant to whether a boost converter can see the
device powered by that battery for longer than the
battery will power the device without it.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html





I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA



states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such as
AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.
Click to expand...

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself wasting
energy?
Click to expand...

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high voltage
to a device is wasteful of energy.
Click to expand...

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.
 
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html






I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA




states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.
Click to expand...
If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use a
boost converter.

Sylvia.
 
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html





I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA



states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.
Click to expand...

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the applied
voltage.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.
Click to expand...

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself wasting
energy?

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

Sylvia
 
On 5/06/2015 12:25 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcd0rFgnlaU2@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html







I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA





states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use
a boost converter.

Irrelevant to whether a boost converter can see the
device powered by that battery for longer than the
battery will power the device without it.
Click to expand...

Very relevant to the question of whether the usual suspects are seeking
to nitpick the issue to death, so as to avoid any real conclusion.

Sylvia.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html








I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA






states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",
Click to expand...

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,
Click to expand...

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

> so no inference can be drawn.

Wrong, as always.
 
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html









I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA







states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.
Click to expand...

And you have a cite to back up that claim?

I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout. It runs on a single
AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet it's turned on.

Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold?

Sylvia.
 
On 5/06/2015 3:40 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html







I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA





states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use a
boost converter.

Sylvia.
Click to expand...

The boost converter is in the batteriser.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html









I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA







states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

And you have a cite to back up that claim?
Click to expand...

Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it.

> I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.

And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
being discussed with.

And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.

It runs on a single AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet it's
turned on.
Click to expand...

And that current will drop significantly when
it has decided that the battery is too flat to use.

> Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold?

A significant drop from the current it takes when turned on, fuckwit.
 
On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html










I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA








states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down
faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can
operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes
energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily
high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

And you have a cite to back up that claim?

Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it.

I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.

And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
being discussed with.
Click to expand...

I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding
devices that are counter-examples.
And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.
Click to expand...

The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of seconds.

When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably, and then falls
again once the alarm is cancelled.

It runs on a single AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet
it's turned on.

And that current will drop significantly when
it has decided that the battery is too flat to use.
Click to expand...

You know this how?

Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold?

A significant drop from the current it takes when turned on, fuckwit.
Click to expand...

You mean you want to note the current when it's first turned on, and
detect a later drop?

Sylvia.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html










I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch
of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA








states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is
clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down
faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an
internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can
operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes
energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily
high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the
input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

And you have a cite to back up that claim?

Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it.

I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.

And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
being discussed with.

I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding
devices that are counter-examples.
Click to expand...

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

And it isn't a counter example either.

And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.

The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of seconds.
Click to expand...

And its completely trivial for any well designed system to see that.

> When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably,

Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop.

> and then falls again once the alarm is cancelled.

Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop.

It runs on a single AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet
it's turned on.

And that current will drop significantly when
it has decided that the battery is too flat to use.

You know this how?
Click to expand...

By measuring it, fuckwit. Tad radical, I know.

Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold?

A significant drop from the current it takes when turned on, fuckwit.

You mean you want to note the current when it's first turned on, and
detect a later drop?
Click to expand...

Nope.
 
On 5/06/2015 8:54 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 5/06/2015 3:40 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html








I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA






states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use a
boost converter.

Sylvia.

The boost converter is in the batteriser.

We're running round in circles.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course the Batteriser contains some kind of boost converter. The
problem is that providing a higher voltage to a device that doesn't need
it will be wasteful unless that device itself contains an efficient
voltage regulator.

Most battery powered devices either don't contain a voltage regulator at
all, or contain a linear regulator. In both cases providing more voltage
than is required will just serve to heat the device up more.

Sylvia.
 
On 5/06/2015 10:57 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in
message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html











I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a
pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA









states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable
batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the
battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA
battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is
clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the
Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down
faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an
internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that
afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's
just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can
operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes
energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V
that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V,
then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily
high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the
input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

And you have a cite to back up that claim?

Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it.

I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.

And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
being discussed with.

I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding
devices that are counter-examples.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

And it isn't a counter example either.

And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.

The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of seconds.

And its completely trivial for any well designed system to see that.

When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably,

Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop.
Click to expand...

How long does one have to watch a drop to determine whether or not it is
permanent?

and then falls again once the alarm is cancelled.

Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent drop.
Click to expand...

It typically drops for slightly under 24 hours, despite being not permanent.

It runs on a single AAA battery, and draws about 15 microamps. Yet
it's turned on.

And that current will drop significantly when
it has decided that the battery is too flat to use.

You know this how?

By measuring it, fuckwit. Tad radical, I know.

Just how low is this alleged not-turned-on threshold?

A significant drop from the current it takes when turned on, fuckwit.

You mean you want to note the current when it's first turned on, and
detect a later drop?

Nope.
Click to expand...

Then what you're proposing makes no sense.

Sylvia.
 
On 5/06/2015 3:03 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 5/06/2015 8:54 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 5/06/2015 3:40 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 4/06/2015 9:34 PM, BuckyBalls wrote:
On 4/06/2015 4:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html









I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA







states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable batteries, such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves shown in figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is clearly being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that "some" do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down faster as the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can operate on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra circuity to pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes energy in
the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to what it needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V that is all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V, then any
higher voltage wastes energy, unless the device contrives to draw a
lower current at the higher voltage (which typically implies some kind
of non-linear regulator).

Sylvia.

Boost converters are LEAST efficient at lower input voltages. As the
voltage increases they get more efficient. Basic switch-mode stuff.


If the device uses a boost converter to provide the majority of the
power to the rest of the circuit, then that is true. Most battery
powered devices just require a suitable input voltage, and do not use a
boost converter.

Sylvia.

The boost converter is in the batteriser.

We're running round in circles.

Yes, of course the Batteriser contains some kind of boost converter. The
problem is that providing a higher voltage to a device that doesn't need
it will be wasteful unless that device itself contains an efficient
voltage regulator.

Most battery powered devices either don't contain a voltage regulator at
all, or contain a linear regulator. In both cases providing more voltage
than is required will just serve to heat the device up more.

Sylvia.
Click to expand...

A boost converter allows a device to operate when the battery voltage
has fallen BELOW the minimum required. Anyway, look around at what is
being made these days, you would be hard pressed to find a LINEAR
regulator in any well-designed device these days, except for the
dirt-cheap linear crap that you seem to be championing.
 
On 6/06/2015 1:02 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctdlg1FqalgU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 10:57 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctdjvtFpttlU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 9:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctd77pFmnt8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 5:49 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcrs0Fjup5U1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 3:42 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcprsFjgfkU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 2:50 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctcjseFi6rfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 5/06/2015 12:23 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ctccruFgnlaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 4/06/2015 9:16 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:ct9ql0Fr49nU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 4:30 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in
message
news:ct79kgF79afU1@mid.individual.net...
On 3/06/2015 11:38 AM, Damian wrote:
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in
message
news:ct4tn7Fj4asU1@mid.individual.net...
On 2/06/2015 1:47 PM, felix_unger wrote:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html












I think the claims need to be, if not taken with a
pinch of
salt, at
least
understood for exactly what they are.

The patent

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US20120121943?dq=20120121943+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TxtVf2zNYWO8QXdwYKgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA










states

"Some electronic equipments that use disposable
batteries,
such
as AA
batteries, are designed to stop operating when the
battery
voltage
drops
by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA
battery
drops to
about
1.4V or 1.35V."

Now, that may be true, but if the voltage curves
shown in
figure 7
of the
patent are correct, equipment that bails at 1.35 is
clearly
being
exceedingly wasteful. Note that the claims is only that
"some"
do.
Not
that the majority do, nor that most do.

By comparison, equipment that's happy to run until the
voltage
drops
to 1V
will have removed most of the available energy from the
battery.
Further,
if, as is possible, such equipment contains a linear
regulator to
provide
a constant internal voltage, then adding the
Batteriser to
provide a
constant 1.5V input will just run the battery down
faster as
the
regulator
dissipates more energy as heat.

That if the majority of the equipment comes with an
internal
step up
voltage
regulator circuittry.
Hardly any consumer electronic device come with that
afaik.
Many that comes with such circuitry are commercial and
scientific
equipment.

It's not a question of having step up circuitry. It's
just a
matter of
what voltage the device requires to operate. If it can
operate
on 1V
per cell then there's no need to provide extra
circuity to
pump the
voltage back to 1.5V per cell. Doing so not only wastes
energy
in the
pump circuitry due to its lack of 100% efficiency,

Yes.

but also wastes energy in
the 0.5V drop from what's supplied to the device to
what it
needs.

Nope. They don’t normally regulate it down to that 1V
that is
all
they
need.

It just works fine with everything from 1.5V down to 1V.

Think about the physics of it, Rod. If it can work on 1V,
then
any
higher voltage wastes energy,

No it does not.

unless the device contrives to draw a lower current at the
higher
voltage

Nope, think of a constant current device.

A constant current device consumes power in proportion to the
applied
voltage.

But the device isn't necessarily a constant current device.

You raised constant current devices.

Only to rub your nose in that error of yours.

(which typically implies some kind of non-linear
regulator).

No reason why it can't just connect the battery
directly to the load while ever the voltage is high
enough and put it thru a step up regulator when
the battery voltage is too low, to get what remains
in the battery out of the battery.

Care to propose an actual circuit that does that without
itself
wasting energy?

One obvious way to do that is to use a relay that
applys the battery directly to what its powering
while ever the battery has sufficient voltage and
then switches the step up regulator in when the
battery voltage drops below the voltage at which
the device will turn itself off due to insufficient voltage.

And the relay coil is powered how?

Doesn’t have to be powered, it can be a bistable relay
or use the normally closed terminals when the relay
is not powered to connect the battery directly to the
load when the battery voltage is high enough.

In any case, the point remains that applying an unnecessarily
high
voltage to a device is wasteful of energy.

But you don’t have to do it like that. The battery
can be directly connected to the load when it
is producing sufficient voltage to power the load.

The batteriser cannot tell what voltage is sufficient.

It can work that out from when the load no longer
runs when the battery voltage is low enough.

Devices don't necessarily stop drawing current just because the
input
voltage has reached a level below which they cannot work
properly.

Sure, but there normally is a significant drop in current
drawn when they decide that the voltage is too low to
allow the device to be used normally.

I don't know about "normally",

Or anything else at all either.

but in any case, there are significant drops in current for reasons
entirely unrelated to the voltage being too low,

Not to such a low level of current that it clearly
isn't turned on as far as the user is concerned.

And you have a cite to back up that claim?

Don’t need a cite, even someone as stupid as you can try measuring it.

I have a clock with an un-illuminated LCD readout.

And that isn't sort of device that anyone but someone
as stupid as you would ever use something like what is
being discussed with.

I wondered whether this would be the point where you'd start excluding
devices that are counter-examples.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

And it isn't a counter example either.

And even if you did, you would find that when it stops
working with a particular battery, that there is a significant
drop in the current it takes from that battery when it does.

The current it draws rises and falls by about 50% very couple of
seconds.

And its completely trivial for any well designed system to see that.

When the alarm goes off, the current rises considerably,

Irrelevant when what its looking for is a significant and permanent
drop.

How long does one have to watch a drop to determine whether or not it
is permanent?

Obviously if it drops to much lower than it was for a
significant amount of time, its obviously stopped.
Click to expand...

Music player between tracks?

I think the absurdity of your position has been adequately demonstrated.
I'll let you have the last word.

Sylvia.
 
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