Aybody have a good reference/tutorial on noise and double ba

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

Need URLs to some good information, or URLs to pdf AppNotes or Articles
regarding how to understand noise as it goes through a double balanced
mixer.

I just did some simulations of double balanced mixer operations using
octave and was shocked to find just how bad is that effect from the noise.
Need to gainsomeinsights here.

Jeff Liebermann · Apr 14, 2014

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:34:36 -0700, RobertMacy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

Need URLs to some good information, or URLs to pdf AppNotes or Articles
regarding how to understand noise as it goes through a double balanced
mixer.

Random Google hits that look interesting:
<http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/mixer_NF.cfm>
<http://www.markimicrowave.com/menus/appnotes/mixer_basics_primer.pdf>
<http://www.analog.com/en/content/glp_RFMixer/fca.html>

I just did some simulations of double balanced mixer operations using
octave and was shocked to find just how bad is that effect from the noise.
Need to gainsomeinsights here.

Try the old HP AppCAD 3.0.2 as a sanity check:
<http://www.hp.woodshot.com>
Signals-Systems -> NoiseCalc

You can plug in models of various mixers, fill in the boxes with some
specs, wrap the mixer with isolation amps, and see the effect of NF on
the entire receiver system. It's not exactly what you're asking for,
but I think you'll find it useful.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tim Wescott · Apr 14, 2014

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:34:36 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Need URLs to some good information, or URLs to pdf AppNotes or Articles
regarding how to understand noise as it goes through a double balanced
mixer.

I just did some simulations of double balanced mixer operations using
octave and was shocked to find just how bad is that effect from the
noise.
Need to gainsomeinsights here.

Wes Hayward, "Introduction to Radio Frequency Design", Prentice Hall,
1982.

There's lots of different kinds of double balanced mixers. I don't know
much about the others, but a diode ring mixer basically does nothing to
the noise, but cuts the signal amplitude by a factor of 2. So it adds
6dB to the noise figure of your signal processing chain.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Lasse Langwadt Christense · Apr 14, 2014

Den mandag den 14. april 2014 18.24.39 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:24:32 -0700, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:26:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com

wrote:

...snip...

Random Google hits that look interesting:

http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/mixer_NF.cfm

http://www.markimicrowave.com/menus/appnotes/mixer_basics_primer.pdf

http://www.analog.com/en/content/glp_RFMixer/fca.html

thanks!

Try the old HP AppCAD 3.0.2 as a sanity check:

http://www.hp.woodshot.com

Signals-Systems -> NoiseCalc

You can plug in models of various mixers, fill in the boxes with some

specs, wrap the mixer with isolation amps, and see the effect of NF on

the entire receiver system. It's not exactly what you're asking for,

but I think you'll find it useful.

Thanks, only 14MB and runs on a 'range' of Windows OS's.

Looks like a handy tool for making presentations, too.

I use it a lot for PCB trace impedance calcs. It doesn't do differential pairs,

so I use TXLINE for those.

tried this? http://www.saturnpcb.com/pcb_toolkit.htm

-Lasse

Gerhard Hoffmann · Apr 14, 2014

Am 14.04.2014 06:34, schrieb RobertMacy:

Need URLs to some good information, or URLs to pdf AppNotes or Articles
regarding how to understand noise as it goes through a double balanced
mixer.

I just did some simulations of double balanced mixer operations using
octave and was shocked to find just how bad is that effect from the
noise. Need to gainsomeinsights here.

< http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0608211 >

regards, Gerhard

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 06:16:14 -0700, Gerhard Hoffmann
<ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:

....snip....
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0608211

regards, Gerhard

Gerhard,

THANK YOU! That's a great piece of literature from Cornell University.

Suspected that what is described in the noise section, Section 9, was
EXACTLY what was happening to me: folding multiple spectral noise
contributions into the mix. But I have to say, the author laid it out much
better.

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:26:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

...snip...
Random Google hits that look interesting:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/mixer_NF.cfm
http://www.markimicrowave.com/menus/appnotes/mixer_basics_primer.pdf
http://www.analog.com/en/content/glp_RFMixer/fca.html

thanks!

Try the old HP AppCAD 3.0.2 as a sanity check:
http://www.hp.woodshot.com
Signals-Systems -> NoiseCalc

You can plug in models of various mixers, fill in the boxes with some
specs, wrap the mixer with isolation amps, and see the effect of NF on
the entire receiver system. It's not exactly what you're asking for,
but I think you'll find it useful.

Thanks, only 14MB and runs on a 'range' of Windows OS's.

Looks like a handy tool for making presentations, too.

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:45:10 -0700, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please>
wrote:

...snip...

Wes Hayward, "Introduction to Radio Frequency Design", Prentice Hall,
1982.

There's lots of different kinds of double balanced mixers. I don't know
much about the others, but a diode ring mixer basically does nothing to
the noise, but cuts the signal amplitude by a factor of 2. So it adds
6dB to the noise figure of your signal processing chain.

Thanks for the reference.

Diode rings generate EVERY ODD harmonic of the carrier, which because they
do NOT get filtered out, will get in the way. I know, I know. People give
a solution and I respsond with, "Oh, thre's one more thing" I hate that
too. Then again, *if* diode rings can be used, they have to be
cheaper/simpler, maybe there's still some way to do that. Thanks for the
'food for thought'

Gerhard Hoffmann · Apr 14, 2014

Am 14.04.2014 16:14, schrieb RobertMacy:

Suspected that what is described in the noise section, Section 9, was
EXACTLY what was happening to me: folding multiple spectral noise
contributions into the mix. But I have to say, the author laid it out
much better.

You may also be interested in his book and search his web site.

<
http://www.amazon.de/Frequency-Stability-Oscillators-Cambridge-Engineering/dp/052115328X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397486004&sr=8-1&keywords=enrico+rubiola
>

cheers, Gerhard

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:37:08 -0700, Gerhard Hoffmann
<ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:

...snip...
You may also be interested in his book and search his web site.

http://www.amazon.de/Frequency-Stability-Oscillators-Cambridge-Engineering/dp/052115328X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397486004&sr=8-1&keywords=enrico+rubiola

cheers, Gerhard

website URL? ...didn't find it at the Amazon URL

Jim Thompson · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:10:09 -0700, RobertMacy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:37:08 -0700, Gerhard Hoffmann
ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:

...snip...
You may also be interested in his book and search his web site.

http://www.amazon.de/Frequency-Stability-Oscillators-Cambridge-Engineering/dp/052115328X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397486004&sr=8-1&keywords=enrico+rubiola

cheers, Gerhard

website URL? ...didn't find it at the Amazon URL

Gerhard Hoffmann · Apr 14, 2014

Am 14.04.2014 18:10, schrieb RobertMacy:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:37:08 -0700, Gerhard Hoffmann
ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:

...snip...
You may also be interested in his book and search his web site.

http://www.amazon.de/Frequency-Stability-Oscillators-Cambridge-Engineering/dp/052115328X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397486004&sr=8-1&keywords=enrico+rubiola

cheers, Gerhard

website URL? ...didn't find it at the Amazon URL

Enter "Enrico Rubiola" into google and the first answer is:

< http://rubiola.org/index.html >

;-) Gerhard

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:12:37 -0700, Gerhard Hoffmann
<ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> wrote:

...snip....

Enter "Enrico Rubiola" into google and the first answer is:

http://rubiola.org/index.html

;-) Gerhard

Thanks. Quite a website, will have to look through the 'available'
literature.

John Larkin · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:24:32 -0700, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:26:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

...snip...
Random Google hits that look interesting:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/mixer_NF.cfm
http://www.markimicrowave.com/menus/appnotes/mixer_basics_primer.pdf
http://www.analog.com/en/content/glp_RFMixer/fca.html

thanks!

Try the old HP AppCAD 3.0.2 as a sanity check:
http://www.hp.woodshot.com
Signals-Systems -> NoiseCalc

You can plug in models of various mixers, fill in the boxes with some
specs, wrap the mixer with isolation amps, and see the effect of NF on
the entire receiver system. It's not exactly what you're asking for,
but I think you'll find it useful.

Thanks, only 14MB and runs on a 'range' of Windows OS's.

Looks like a handy tool for making presentations, too.

I use it a lot for PCB trace impedance calcs. It doesn't do differential pairs,
so I use TXLINE for those.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation

Tim Wescott · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:28:53 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 23:45:10 -0700, Tim Wescott
tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:

...snip...

Wes Hayward, "Introduction to Radio Frequency Design", Prentice Hall,
1982.

There's lots of different kinds of double balanced mixers. I don't
know much about the others, but a diode ring mixer basically does
nothing to the noise, but cuts the signal amplitude by a factor of 2.
So it adds 6dB to the noise figure of your signal processing chain.

Thanks for the reference.

Diode rings generate EVERY ODD harmonic of the carrier, which because
they do NOT get filtered out, will get in the way. I know, I know.
People give a solution and I respsond with, "Oh, thre's one more thing"
I hate that too. Then again, *if* diode rings can be used, they have to
be cheaper/simpler, maybe there's still some way to do that. Thanks for
the 'food for thought'

I don't recall you mentioning exactly what you're up to with this mixer,
other than you wanted it to work in both directions.

I do know that most mixers give better dynamic range (defined as the dB
change in a signal that ranges from the noise floor to unacceptable
distortion) when they're driven with a square wave, or hard enough that
the carrier may as well be a square wave.

If it's a radio, there's ways around that -- usually the way around that
is to filter the incoming intended signal with a filter broad enough to
catch a whole band, but narrow enough that you don't get spurious mixing
products of either noise or unintended signals. Then you amplify that in
the RF and apply the result to the mixer.

But you've got a specific idea in mind, and I don't know whether the
above helps or not.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:47:51 -0700, Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

...snip....

tried this? http://www.saturnpcb.com/pcb_toolkit.htm

-Lasse

Wow! pure gold! thank you.

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:11:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@on-my-web-site.com> wrote:

...snip....
website URL? ...didn't find it at the Amazon URL

...DOT_de_

...Jim Thompson

Any of Amazon loads me down with tracking cookies and pictures upon
pictures that don't allow me to use the PC while Amazon deems themselves
more important. These websites are like having a nagging child keep taking
your attention away. Just enough 'pause' to irritate, but not enough to
cause killing it, euphorically, or is that euphemistically?

Private note: any progress on getting a sample mixer problem for me to
analyze using my .tranoise feature? Heopfully, smallish in size.

RobertMacy · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:00:27 -0700, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really>
wrote:

...snip....
I don't recall you mentioning exactly what you're up to with this mixer,
other than you wanted it to work in both directions.

I do know that most mixers give better dynamic range (defined as the dB
change in a signal that ranges from the noise floor to unacceptable
distortion) when they're driven with a square wave, or hard enough that
the carrier may as well be a square wave.

If it's a radio, there's ways around that -- usually the way around that
is to filter the incoming intended signal with a filter broad enough to
catch a whole band, but narrow enough that you don't get spurious mixing
products of either noise or unintended signals. Then you amplify that in
the RF and apply the result to the mixer.

But you've got a specific idea in mind, and I don't know whether the
above helps or not.

Every bit helps. At the risk of hijacking my own thread...True that a long
time ago I learned the hard way that the best way to reduce noise in a
digital system is to make it faster, more abrupt, which was EXACTLY the
opposite from quieting down analog systems. Analog systems add a cap, but
add a cap in digital and you have major problems, rather speed up the
transitions and there's less time for the logic gates to 'think' about it.
Thus, probably a quiet mixer will be one that makes super fast transitions
from full ON to full OFF, like a diode ring. From looking at the NF's
seems to be correct. see a few with NF=7.5dB and some an incredibly low
6.8dB, which might have been 'specsmanship'.

Jim Thompson · Apr 14, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:19:33 -0700, RobertMacy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:11:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@on-my-web-site.com> wrote:

...snip....
website URL? ...didn't find it at the Amazon URL

...DOT_de_

...Jim Thompson

Any of Amazon loads me down with tracking cookies and pictures upon
pictures that don't allow me to use the PC while Amazon deems themselves
more important. These websites are like having a nagging child keep taking
your attention away. Just enough 'pause' to irritate, but not enough to
cause killing it, euphorically, or is that euphemistically?

Private note: any progress on getting a sample mixer problem for me to
analyze using my .tranoise feature? Heopfully, smallish in size.

Jeff Liebermann · Apr 16, 2014

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:35:50 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

tried this? http://www.saturnpcb.com/pcb_toolkit.htm
-Lasse

It's always fun to compare microstrip calculators, especially at high w/h
ratios.

Saturn only allows w/h up to 3, so I tried that. W=30 mils, T=10, Er=4.6.
Saturn 29.42 ohms
Appcad 35.70 ohms
Txline 35.71 ohms

Saturn may be using one of the old classical microstrip formulas. They get bad
at high w/h, and many go negative. There are some really bad javascript ones
online.

Methinks you might be referring to mcalc, which the author admits has
problems and was replaced by wcalc:
<http://wcalc.sourceforge.net>
Windoze installer at:
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/wcalc/files/wcalc/wcalc-1.1/>
Note the front ends for Octave, Matlab, Scilab, etc.

Using your example, I get 35.03 ohms
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/wcalc-microstrip.jpg>
Looks like Saturn may have a problem. Thanks.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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