Automobile starter lockout

[Ivan Vegvary]

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary

 

[Jamie]

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary

They do make cars like that, but you could always do a
add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).


Jamie.

 

[Ivan Vegvary]

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).

Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?



Ivan Vegvary



They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.

Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

 

[John G]

It happens that Ivan Vegvary formulated :

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you
car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done
this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70
years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?


Ivan Vegvary



They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.

Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Just buy an Australian made Commodore (GMs 6 cylynder). lol

--
John G

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 11/03/2013 11:15 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).

Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?



Ivan Vegvary



They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.

Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Or a relay driven from a signal from the oil pressure lamp.

If you tap the circuit at the lamp, it will provide a 'high' to drive a
suitable transistor or fet controlling the relay when the motor is running

 

[Pimpom]

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit
so
that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running.
Why
haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally
(maybe
a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet
running
auto?

Ivan Vegvary

Count one more idiot here. I consider myself to be a careful,
methodical type. But I still do it, especially when I'm
distracted - at roughly the same frequency as you.

 

[default]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
<ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary
Good point.

It is such a simple thing. My BMW MC had a starter interlock that
wouldn't allow it to start unless the engine wasn't turning and it
wasn't in gear.

 

[Jamie]

Rheilly Phoull wrote:

On 11/03/2013 11:15 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).


Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so
that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why
haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally
(maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet
running auto?




Ivan Vegvary




They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.


Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Or a relay driven from a signal from the oil pressure lamp.
If you tap the circuit at the lamp, it will provide a 'high' to drive a
suitable transistor or fet controlling the relay when the motor is running

But that wouldn't work so well because you can create oil pressure
before it starts or if for some reason you are having first crank
starting issues. This is especially true in the winter if your oil
is thick when cold. If you don't get it right on the first crank, you'll
need to wait for the pressure to drop..


Jamie

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2013-03-11, Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 11/03/2013 11:15 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).


Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so
that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why
haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally
(maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet
running auto?




Ivan Vegvary




They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.


Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Or a relay driven from a signal from the oil pressure lamp.
If you tap the circuit at the lamp, it will provide a 'high' to drive a
suitable transistor or fet controlling the relay when the motor is running

But that wouldn't work so well because you can create oil pressure
before it starts or if for some reason you are having first crank
starting issues. This is especially true in the winter if your oil
is thick when cold. If you don't get it right on the first crank, you'll
need to wait for the pressure to drop..

hmm, yeah, wire relay to disable the cutout in parallel with the starter relay.
perhap also use a different measure (tacho or altenator aux output)

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 12/03/2013 7:40 AM, Jamie wrote:

Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 11/03/2013 11:15 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).


Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so
that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why
haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally
(maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra
quiet running auto?




Ivan Vegvary




They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.


Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Or a relay driven from a signal from the oil pressure lamp.
If you tap the circuit at the lamp, it will provide a 'high' to drive
a suitable transistor or fet controlling the relay when the motor is
running

But that wouldn't work so well because you can create oil pressure
before it starts or if for some reason you are having first crank
starting issues. This is especially true in the winter if your oil
is thick when cold. If you don't get it right on the first crank, you'll
need to wait for the pressure to drop..


Jamie

Well I guess I have to admit it is the use I have with a diesel motor.

The motor is running for several seconds before the pressure is high
enough to turn off the lamp in any weather ( Of course here in God's
country we don't get freezing etc ) .

 

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
<ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Most of the cars I have driven have a mechanical interlock in the
ignition lock. Once you have activated the starter, you must turn the
key completely to "off" before you can try to start again.
--
RoRo

 

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 13:42:51 +0100, Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no>
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Most of the cars I have driven have a mechanical interlock in the
ignition lock. Once you have activated the starter, you must turn the
key completely to "off" before you can try to start again.

It's dangerous as hell, too. Once my engine would, occasionally, just
shut off (took months to find the intermittent flywheel sensor). To
restart one had to turn it to the OFF position, which also locks the
steering. Together they are a *BAD* idea.

 

[Ian Field]

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:khmhqt$n3v$1@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2013-03-11, Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net
wrote:
Rheilly Phoull wrote:
On 11/03/2013 11:15 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:53 PM UTC-7, Jamie wrote:

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).


Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so
that you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why
haven't they done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally
(maybe a dozen times in my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet
running auto?




Ivan Vegvary




They do make cars like that, but you could always do a

add on with a vacuum switch to the starter solenoid (NC).





Jamie.


Vacuum switch, no that is truly clever! Thanks.
Ivan Vegvary

Or a relay driven from a signal from the oil pressure lamp.
If you tap the circuit at the lamp, it will provide a 'high' to drive a
suitable transistor or fet controlling the relay when the motor is
running

But that wouldn't work so well because you can create oil pressure
before it starts or if for some reason you are having first crank
starting issues. This is especially true in the winter if your oil
is thick when cold. If you don't get it right on the first crank, you'll
need to wait for the pressure to drop..

hmm, yeah, wire relay to disable the cutout in parallel with the starter
relay.
perhap also use a different measure (tacho or altenator aux output)

I was wondering whether car alternators still had a charge warning tag.

You'd need a delay before a valid signal locked out the solenoid to ensure a
good start.

OTOH; with older motorcycles I sometimes give the starter button a jab while
running to clean the starter commutator - can delay the dreaded stripdown
for cleaning.

 

[Ian Field]

"default" <none@noname.net> wrote in message
news:eanrj8t8j6g24idabqg2ul3b4fvep61snm@4ax.com...

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that
you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they
done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in
my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary
Good point.

It is such a simple thing. My BMW MC had a starter interlock that
wouldn't allow it to start unless the engine wasn't turning and it
wasn't in gear.

On most motorcycles; the solenoid is interlocked with the neutral light - if
its in gear, the solenoid wont operate unless the clutch lever is pulled.

Some models also have a cutout switch on the sidestand - lots of fun when
the switch gets full of road grime and becomes intermittent.

 

[default]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:07:35 -0000, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"default" <none@noname.net> wrote in message
news:eanrj8t8j6g24idabqg2ul3b4fvep61snm@4ax.com...
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that
you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't they
done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times in
my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary
Good point.

It is such a simple thing. My BMW MC had a starter interlock that
wouldn't allow it to start unless the engine wasn't turning and it
wasn't in gear.


On most motorcycles; the solenoid is interlocked with the neutral light - if
its in gear, the solenoid wont operate unless the clutch lever is pulled.

Some models also have a cutout switch on the sidestand - lots of fun when
the switch gets full of road grime and becomes intermittent.

BMW used a relay that energized when the alternator began supplying
power as well as the neutral switch..

 

[Ian Field]

"default" <none@noname.net> wrote in message
news:hk8ek8pupivpkmp32d269bp53mh9c8tfb9@4ax.com...

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:07:35 -0000, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:



"default" <none@noname.net> wrote in message
news:eanrj8t8j6g24idabqg2ul3b4fvep61snm@4ax.com...
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:21:38 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary
ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote:

Not looking for help (this time).
Just wondering how simple it would be to design a logic circuit so that
you car starter is disabled while the engine is running. Why haven't
they
done this. Am I the only idiot that occasionally (maybe a dozen times
in
my 70 years) turns the key in my ultra quiet running auto?

Ivan Vegvary
Good point.

It is such a simple thing. My BMW MC had a starter interlock that
wouldn't allow it to start unless the engine wasn't turning and it
wasn't in gear.


On most motorcycles; the solenoid is interlocked with the neutral light -
if
its in gear, the solenoid wont operate unless the clutch lever is pulled.

Some models also have a cutout switch on the sidestand - lots of fun when
the switch gets full of road grime and becomes intermittent.

BMW used a relay that energized when the alternator began supplying
power as well as the neutral switch..

There's various schemes - I've seen a Honda with a collection of diodes
forming a rudimentary logic gate.

 

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:48:27 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

It's dangerous as hell, too. Once my engine would, occasionally, just
shut off (took months to find the intermittent flywheel sensor). To
restart one had to turn it to the OFF position, which also locks the
steering. Together they are a *BAD* idea.

The operator's manual very explicitly states that you must not turn
the key off while the car is moving.

Also, many cars don't engage the steering lock until you pull the key
completely out of the lock.

Another interesting feature is that the steering lock does not engage
until the steering wheel has been turned a considerable amount off
center: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEA8cR32knQ
--
RoRo

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:58:18 +0100, Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no>
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:48:27 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

It's dangerous as hell, too. Once my engine would, occasionally, just
shut off (took months to find the intermittent flywheel sensor). To
restart one had to turn it to the OFF position, which also locks the
steering. Together they are a *BAD* idea.

The operator's manual very explicitly states that you must not turn
the key off while the car is moving.

Also, many cars don't engage the steering lock until you pull the key
completely out of the lock.

Another interesting feature is that the steering lock does not engage
until the steering wheel has been turned a considerable amount off
center: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEA8cR32knQ

Was so in the "golden" days, I'm not sure about all cars now. My 2005
Q45 doesn't require any significant movement.

But my beloved 1961 Renault Dauphine... I used to park it on the
yellow "end zones" in the giant parking lot at Motorola SPD on 52nd
St.

Then the guards would tow it to the "south 40".

So I would turn the steering wheel all the way to the right and lock
it ;-)

Guards would try to tow it and could only run it in circles.

They finally gave up on me and gave me a card for the executive
parking lot >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:58:18 +0100, Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no>
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:48:27 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

It's dangerous as hell, too. Once my engine would, occasionally, just
shut off (took months to find the intermittent flywheel sensor). To
restart one had to turn it to the OFF position, which also locks the
steering. Together they are a *BAD* idea.

The operator's manual very explicitly states that you must not turn
the key off while the car is moving.

I really don't give a crap what the manual states. It's *DUMB*.

Also, many cars don't engage the steering lock until you pull the key
completely out of the lock.

Most do.

Another interesting feature is that the steering lock does not engage
until the steering wheel has been turned a considerable amount off
center: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEA8cR32knQ

So you'd better be on a straight road? BTW, that's a dumb idea, too.
The wheels should be straight when parked (it's hard on the power
steering pump to leave them at an angle).

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:54:47 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:58:18 +0100, Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 09:48:27 -0400, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

It's dangerous as hell, too. Once my engine would, occasionally, just
shut off (took months to find the intermittent flywheel sensor). To
restart one had to turn it to the OFF position, which also locks the
steering. Together they are a *BAD* idea.

The operator's manual very explicitly states that you must not turn
the key off while the car is moving.

I really don't give a crap what the manual states. It's *DUMB*.

Also, many cars don't engage the steering lock until you pull the key
completely out of the lock.

Most do.

Another interesting feature is that the steering lock does not engage
until the steering wheel has been turned a considerable amount off
center: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEA8cR32knQ

So you'd better be on a straight road? BTW, that's a dumb idea, too.
The wheels should be straight when parked (it's hard on the power
steering pump to leave them at an angle).

Huh? Power steering is a hydraulic servo, at _any_ non-movement
position the piston is bypassed.

Ever rebuilt one? I have ;-)

I've heard that some new "power-assisted" steering is electric, but
I've not see one.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.