Auto Forecast...

[Don Y]

<https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0>

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

<https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0>

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers
or DeLoreans.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:15:30 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a..60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers or DeLoreans.

Electricity is a cheaper fuel than gasoline, and electric cars are whole lot easier to maintain. They do have a real advantage over gasoline-powered cars, no matter how enthusiastically Flyguy tries to tell us that they don\'t..

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:24:37 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:15:30 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers or DeLoreans.
Electricity is a cheaper fuel than gasoline,

Yes for most home charging. On the road, 40c/KWhr (13c/mi) is typical. Some are 50c/KWhr (15c/mi) or higher. Almost as expensive as gasoline.

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:05:29 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a..60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes....
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Do you know anything about the data behind these projections? They don\'t seem to show anything useful.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 09:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy711lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:24:37?AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:15:30?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers or DeLoreans.
Electricity is a cheaper fuel than gasoline,

Yes for most home charging. On the road, 40c/KWhr (13c/mi) is typical. Some are 50c/KWhr (15c/mi) or higher. Almost as expensive as gasoline.

Much more if your time is worth anything.

 

[bitrex]

On 8/21/2023 1:19 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:05:29 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Do you know anything about the data behind these projections? They don\'t seem to show anything useful.

6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids?
Sounds bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was
discontinued years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular,
either from a consumer or profit margin perspective.

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:15:30 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers or DeLoreans.
Electricity is a cheaper fuel than gasoline, and electric cars are whole lot easier to maintain. They do have a real advantage over gasoline-powered cars, no matter how enthusiastically Flyguy tries to tell us that they don\'t.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

This woman rented one for a week with her husband. One of her complaints is that one has to use the screen to change things. That is distracting.. A driver can\'t just grab a knob or lever to change things while watching the road.
<https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/21/i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars>

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 6:16:46 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 8/21/2023 1:19 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:05:29 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Do you know anything about the data behind these projections? They don\'t seem to show anything useful.

6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids?
Sounds bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was
discontinued years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular,
either from a consumer or profit margin perspective.

Not sure what you are talking about. Most hybrids have an electrical range around 50 miles.

That said, these numbers don\'t make any sense to me. I\'m not even sure what they are from. That\'s not unusual for the EIA.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 6:44:47 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 8:15:30 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:05:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Electric cars may have the same sales trends as Miatas or PT Cruisers or DeLoreans.
Electricity is a cheaper fuel than gasoline, and electric cars are whole lot easier to maintain. They do have a real advantage over gasoline-powered cars, no matter how enthusiastically Flyguy tries to tell us that they don\'t.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
This woman rented one for a week with her husband. One of her complaints is that one has to use the screen to change things. That is distracting. A driver can\'t just grab a knob or lever to change things while watching the road.
https://thefederalist.com/2023/08/21/i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=i-rented-a-tesla-for-a-week-and-am-totally-sold-on-gas-powered-cars

That\'s not just a thing in Teslas. I have a 2022 Kia with an instrument cluster which is controlled by buttons and levers (up for +, down for -). The only real difference is I can read the writing in the Kia more easily. The Tesla fonts and sizes are designed for 20 year olds.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 8/21/2023 6:54 PM, Ricky wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 6:16:46 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 8/21/2023 1:19 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:05:29 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Do you know anything about the data behind these projections? They don\'t seem to show anything useful.

6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids?
Sounds bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was
discontinued years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular,
either from a consumer or profit margin perspective.

Not sure what you are talking about. Most hybrids have an electrical range around 50 miles.

Huh? This is all of the plug-in hybrids you can buy in the US today,
none of them have a 50 mile electric range.

<https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybrid-car-suv-vehicles/>

I\'m not sure what the term \"electrical range\" would mean outside the
context of a plug-in hybrid.

That said, these numbers don\'t make any sense to me. I\'m not even sure what they are from. That\'s not unusual for the EIA.

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 7:29:41 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 8/21/2023 6:54 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 6:16:46 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 8/21/2023 1:19 PM, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 5:05:29 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=ref2023&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=ref2023-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~ref2023-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=ref2023-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Sure looks like things won\'t be changing any time in any of OUR lifetimes...
despite the subsidies!

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/data/browser/#/?id=48-AEO2023&region=1-0&cases=highupIRA&start=2021&end=2050&f=A&linechart=highupIRA-d020623a.4-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.59-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.60-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.61-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.62-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.63-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.64-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.65-48-AEO2023.1-0~highupIRA-d020623a.66-48-AEO2023.1-0&map=highupIRA-d020623a.5-48-AEO2023.1-0&sourcekey=0

Do you know anything about the data behind these projections? They don\'t seem to show anything useful.

6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids?
Sounds bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was
discontinued years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular,
either from a consumer or profit margin perspective.

Not sure what you are talking about. Most hybrids have an electrical range around 50 miles.
Huh? This is all of the plug-in hybrids you can buy in the US today,
none of them have a 50 mile electric range.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377500/plug-in-hybrid-car-suv-vehicles/

Is your source reliable?

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2022/03/the-plug-in-hybrid-with-the-longest-range-top-10-list.html

This list shows two models over 50 miles. But the point is, what does 50 miles mean as a category? They list 20 miles and 50 miles. It makes sense that the 20 mile category is 1 to 20 miles and the 50 mile category is 21 to 50 miles. Does that make sense to you?

I\'m not sure what the term \"electrical range\" would mean outside the
context of a plug-in hybrid.
That said, these numbers don\'t make any sense to me. I\'m not even sure what they are from. That\'s not unusual for the EIA.

I\'m talking about the \"sales\" numbers. What is any of this based on? The projections seem to be very unrealistic.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 8/21/2023 3:44 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

This woman rented one for a week with her husband. One of her complaints is
that one has to use the screen to change things. That is distracting. A
driver can\'t just grab a knob or lever to change things while watching the
road.

A common problem in many newer cars, regardless of fuel type.

SWMBO\'s vehicle has lots of dedicated knobs to control most
of the common controls -- music source/volume, cruise
control, headlights, wipers/washers, temperature, fan
speed, air routing (defrost/floorboards/dashboard/both),
driver/passenger seat controls, etc.

A touchscreen is used to interact with the navigation
system, change treble/bass/balance, phonebook, etc.

Speech recognizer allows the touchscreen to be controlled
by your voice (though that\'s a klunky interface)

The *biggest* problem with it is that most of the touchscreen
controls are locked out when the car is in motion (accessing
them while in motion means resorting to the speech interface).
So, the *passenger* can\'t be selecting the destination from
the address book unless the driver stops the car (e.g., at
a traffic signal).

The other annoyance is that there are *3* displays (only one
of which is touch sensitive) so you have to know where to
look for map, sound system controls, tire pressures, etc.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/21/2023 9:14 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:

Yes for most home charging. On the road, 40c/KWhr (13c/mi) is typical.
Some are 50c/KWhr (15c/mi) or higher. Almost as expensive as gasoline.

And what\'s it cost to charge the battery using the gasoline engine
in the hybrid?

E.g., when your ~50 mile Prius has to fall back on the ICE
to get beyond it\'s ~45 mile range (so you can get home
to plug it back in!)

 

[Don Y]

On 8/21/2023 3:16 PM, bitrex wrote:

6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids? Sounds > bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was discontinued
years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular, either from a consumer
or profit margin perspective.

The Prius is a \"50 mile plug-in hybrid\". See far more of those on the road
than Teslas! As are RAV4 Prime, Jeep Wrangler 4Xe, Volvo XC60 & XC90, Ford
Escape, Kia Sorento, Hyundai Tucson, etc.

So, as to \"who is going to make them\": Toyota, Jeep, Volvo, Ford, Kia, ...

Short range BEVs aren\'t popular. Because you\'re SoL when you\'ve exhausted your
SOLE SOURCE OF ENERGY. But, hybrids avoid that *shortcoming* giving you access
to all of the hundreds of thousands of gasoline stations around the country!

A PHEV would solve *our* 10 mile \"chores trips\" (grocery, library, etc.) needs.
But, would barely make it across town and back for those longer trips.

And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions
test, maintenance/repair costs AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
up to the task)?

Or, should I hire an UBER each time I want to go across town? Or,
up to Feenigs? Pick someone up at the airport? Lug a load of
kit home from an auction? What does your time cost for these
inconveniences? (recall Hill couldn\'t be bothered plugging his
Prius *in* to charge it!)

I, like (I imagine) most people, would prefer fewer vehicles to address the
complete set of needs. Any other vehicles should be for *enjoyment* (and
backup transportation), not to compensate for the shortcomings of the first
vehicle.

[I don\'t own a pickup truck as I can find a friend/neighbor to
address those infrequent needs. Yet, I can haul 10 ft lumber,
EMT, etc. in the SUV; I purchased a garage full of industrial
shelving and hauled it home with the roof panels removed from
*my* car. And, 8 ft trees, etc. When I need to haul a ton of
sand, I ask a buddy to move it for me in his 7L diesel pickup.]

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:41:43 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 8/21/2023 3:16 PM, bitrex wrote:
6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids? Sounds > bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was discontinued
years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular, either from a consumer
or profit margin perspective.
The Prius is a \"50 mile plug-in hybrid\". See far more of those on the road
than Teslas! As are RAV4 Prime, Jeep Wrangler 4Xe, Volvo XC60 & XC90, Ford
Escape, Kia Sorento, Hyundai Tucson, etc.

So, as to \"who is going to make them\": Toyota, Jeep, Volvo, Ford, Kia, ....

Short range BEVs aren\'t popular. Because you\'re SoL when you\'ve exhausted your
SOLE SOURCE OF ENERGY.

My insurance cover $50 towing. That should cover 5 miles. For longer distance, AAA covers 100 miles.
I\'ll keep my generator close-by just in case. It\'s a GHEV (Gas-in Hybrid EV).

But, hybrids avoid that *shortcoming* giving you access
to all of the hundreds of thousands of gasoline stations around the country!

Same for my portable generator.

A PHEV would solve *our* 10 mile \"chores trips\" (grocery, library, etc.) needs.
But, would barely make it across town and back for those longer trips.

My 50 miles GHEV can handle N & S CA, except escaping from LA or heading into LV.

> And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions test,

No emission test for EV.

> maintenance/repair costs

One time cost only, I got: heavy duty pusher/popper, torque and combo wrench and AutoZone VIP. I think I can handle any suspension problems.

AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
p.up to the task)?

I just park near the car rental place while renting an ICE.

> Or, should I hire an UBER each time I want to go across town?

CalTrain/Bart/Bus. 50 miles between SF to SJ, while my temp. repair shop is.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2023 11:52 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:41:43 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/21/2023 3:16 PM, bitrex wrote:
6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids? Sounds > bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was discontinued
years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular, either from a consumer
or profit margin perspective.
The Prius is a \"50 mile plug-in hybrid\". See far more of those on the road
than Teslas! As are RAV4 Prime, Jeep Wrangler 4Xe, Volvo XC60 & XC90, Ford
Escape, Kia Sorento, Hyundai Tucson, etc.

So, as to \"who is going to make them\": Toyota, Jeep, Volvo, Ford, Kia, ...

Short range BEVs aren\'t popular. Because you\'re SoL when you\'ve exhausted your
SOLE SOURCE OF ENERGY.

My insurance cover $50 towing. That should cover 5 miles. For longer distance, AAA covers 100 miles.
I\'ll keep my generator close-by just in case. It\'s a GHEV (Gas-in Hybrid EV).

Some of us actually are *paid* for our time; the idea of having to
WASTE it because of a shortcoming of a device WE PURCHASED is
simply anathema to us!

But, hybrids avoid that *shortcoming* giving you access
to all of the hundreds of thousands of gasoline stations around the country!

Same for my portable generator.

\"Free, with each EV purchase...\"

A PHEV would solve *our* 10 mile \"chores trips\" (grocery, library, etc.) needs.
But, would barely make it across town and back for those longer trips.

My 50 miles GHEV can handle N & S CA, except escaping from LA or heading into LV.

I can drive to feenigs and back -- twice -- on a tank of gas
(~500 miles). How many tows would that entail for you?

And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions test,

No emission test for EV.

No, you\'ll just have a fee tacked onto your registration in lieu
of gas tax.

Do you have to insure the vehicle? Register it? (update your plate)

maintenance/repair costs

One time cost only, I got: heavy duty pusher/popper, torque and combo wrench and AutoZone VIP. I think I can handle any suspension problems.

Ever chip a windshield? Get a flat tire? Losing refrigerant from your ACbrrr?
Are all the other \"bits\" in your vehicle made of never-fail components?

AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
p.up to the task)?

I just park near the car rental place while renting an ICE.

Where do you store it AT HOME? How do you purchase lumber, pipe/conduit,
lawn furnishings, etc.?

I\'m sure the rental process takes zero time and is located ON YOUR WAY to
wherever you are headed -- regardless of WHERE you are headed. And,
ALWAYS has the vehicle you want, waiting for you...

(Even McDonald\'s pays $15/hr!)

Or, should I hire an UBER each time I want to go across town?

CalTrain/Bart/Bus. 50 miles between SF to SJ, while my temp. repair shop is.

50 miles to get your vehicle fixed? An *hour* travel time? Then,
an hour back home? Plus another round-trip to fetch it afterwards?

You should just try getting a better paying job so
you can afford a better vehicle!

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 1:19:55 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 8/22/2023 11:52 AM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 11:41:43 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/21/2023 3:16 PM, bitrex wrote:
6% growth in 100 mile range EVs and 7% in 50 mile plug-in hybrids? Sounds > bonkers. Who is going to make them? and why? The Chevy Volt was discontinued
years ago, and short-range EVs have never been popular, either from a consumer
or profit margin perspective.
The Prius is a \"50 mile plug-in hybrid\". See far more of those on the road
than Teslas! As are RAV4 Prime, Jeep Wrangler 4Xe, Volvo XC60 & XC90, Ford
Escape, Kia Sorento, Hyundai Tucson, etc.

So, as to \"who is going to make them\": Toyota, Jeep, Volvo, Ford, Kia, ...

Short range BEVs aren\'t popular. Because you\'re SoL when you\'ve exhausted your
SOLE SOURCE OF ENERGY.

My insurance cover $50 towing. That should cover 5 miles. For longer distance, AAA covers 100 miles.
I\'ll keep my generator close-by just in case. It\'s a GHEV (Gas-in Hybrid EV).
Some of us actually are *paid* for our time; the idea of having to
WASTE it because of a shortcoming of a device WE PURCHASED is
simply anathema to us!
But, hybrids avoid that *shortcoming* giving you access
to all of the hundreds of thousands of gasoline stations around the country!

Same for my portable generator.
\"Free, with each EV purchase...\"
A PHEV would solve *our* 10 mile \"chores trips\" (grocery, library, etc..) needs.
But, would barely make it across town and back for those longer trips.

My 50 miles GHEV can handle N & S CA, except escaping from LA or heading into LV.
I can drive to feenigs and back -- twice -- on a tank of gas
(~500 miles). How many tows would that entail for you?

Only once, North-bound from LA or West-bound to LV, because of the increasing elevations.

And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions test,

No emission test for EV.
No, you\'ll just have a fee tacked onto your registration in lieu of gas tax.

Not yet, at least not in CA.

> Do you have to insure the vehicle? Register it? (update your plate)

I skipped insurance for a month with the vehicle disabled. Just renewed it last week.

maintenance/repair costs

One time cost only, I got: heavy duty pusher/popper, torque and combo wrench and AutoZone VIP. I think I can handle any suspension problems.
Ever chip a windshield? Get a flat tire? Losing refrigerant from your ACbrrr?

Yes, $5 fix a chip glue. Got run-flat tire. No need for AC here.

> Are all the other \"bits\" in your vehicle made of never-fail components?

But all these are the same for EV or ICE.

AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
p.up to the task)?

I just park near the car rental place while renting an ICE.
Where do you store it AT HOME? How do you purchase lumber, pipe/conduit,
lawn furnishings, etc.?

Call a friend.

I\'m sure the rental process takes zero time and is located ON YOUR WAY to
wherever you are headed -- regardless of WHERE you are headed. And,
ALWAYS has the vehicle you want, waiting for you...

(Even McDonald\'s pays $15/hr!)
Or, should I hire an UBER each time I want to go across town?

CalTrain/Bart/Bus. 50 miles between SF to SJ, while my temp. repair shop is.
50 miles to get your vehicle fixed? An *hour* travel time? Then,
an hour back home? Plus another round-trip to fetch it afterwards?

Yes, actually twice to get it driveable this time. If I had all the parts and tools, could have done it in 3 to 4 hours.

Next time, will just order all the parts to SJ and do it in one trip (with tow truck).

If the knee (low arm) is broken, likely need to replace axle and hub. So, have ball-join popper/pusher, axle and hub puller with slide hammer. Impact wrench to \"break\" the axle nut. Mostly loaner from friend and/or AutoZone.

The knee is weak and is disposable.

> You should just try getting a better paying job so you can afford a better vehicle!

But I don\'t need the money and/or better job/vehicle.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2023 2:20 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:

And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions test,

No emission test for EV.
No, you\'ll just have a fee tacked onto your registration in lieu of gas tax.

Not yet, at least not in CA.

It\'s coming. States can\'t afford to lose tax revenues from gas sales.
You\'ll either be charged a flat fee (which will be annoying if you
don\'t drive THAT car, much) *or* will have to report your odometer
much like semi\'s do. Chances are, *you* won\'t be trusted to self-report
this but, instead, will go somewhere (even if just to your auto insurer)
where THEY will read your odometer and report it.

maintenance/repair costs

One time cost only, I got: heavy duty pusher/popper, torque and combo wrench and AutoZone VIP. I think I can handle any suspension problems.
Ever chip a windshield? Get a flat tire? Losing refrigerant from your ACbrrr?

Yes, $5 fix a chip glue. Got run-flat tire. No need for AC here.

Heat? Fan? Power windows?

I mean, if you\'ve got a car that is built of components that don\'t
break, that seems like *that* would be the main selling point for the vehicle!

Are all the other \"bits\" in your vehicle made of never-fail components?

But all these are the same for EV or ICE.

And if you have to have more than one vehicle to meet all of your
transportation needs, then you have more than one vehicle that
needs to be maintained.

We are very (physically) comfortable making long trips in the SUV;
it\'s reasonably plush, ample leg/headroom, well appointed, etc.
Or, short trips around town. We can carry lots of luggage -- or
groceries/purchased items including oversized items. We don\'t have
to worry about running out of gas. Or, of being far from an
\"authorized repair center\". We have adequate ACbrrr and heat (if
we ever find ourselves where heat is needed) WITHOUT worrying that
we are affecting our travel range.

We could get better gas mileage if we rode motorcycles. But,
would probably not like being out in the heat. Or, greater
comfort driving a (chauffeured) stretch limo -- but a helluva
time storing it! It would be a lot easier to load the back
of a pickup with oversized items -- but not as comfortable to
drive.

AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
p.up to the task)?

I just park near the car rental place while renting an ICE.
Where do you store it AT HOME? How do you purchase lumber, pipe/conduit,
lawn furnishings, etc.?

Call a friend.

I\'m sure they LOVE having to compensate for your needs with THEIR
time/materials. Of course, YOU reciprocate (at some cost to yourself),
right?

You should just try getting a better paying job so you can afford a better vehicle!

But I don\'t need the money and/or better job/vehicle.

So, you\'re just someone sitting around waiting to die (your
time being of no value to yourself). Must be sad...

 

[Eddy Lee]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 3:00:42 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 8/22/2023 2:20 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
And, why would I want another insurance bill, registration fee, emissions test,

No emission test for EV.
No, you\'ll just have a fee tacked onto your registration in lieu of gas tax.

Not yet, at least not in CA.
It\'s coming. States can\'t afford to lose tax revenues from gas sales.
You\'ll either be charged a flat fee (which will be annoying if you
don\'t drive THAT car, much) *or* will have to report your odometer
much like semi\'s do. Chances are, *you* won\'t be trusted to self-report
this but, instead, will go somewhere (even if just to your auto insurer)
where THEY will read your odometer and report it.
maintenance/repair costs

One time cost only, I got: heavy duty pusher/popper, torque and combo wrench and AutoZone VIP. I think I can handle any suspension problems.
Ever chip a windshield? Get a flat tire? Losing refrigerant from your ACbrrr?

Yes, $5 fix a chip glue. Got run-flat tire. No need for AC here.
Heat? Fan? Power windows?

Mostly only fan. It\'s between 59°F to 73°F today.

I mean, if you\'ve got a car that is built of components that don\'t
break, that seems like *that* would be the main selling point for the vehicle!
Are all the other \"bits\" in your vehicle made of never-fail components?

But all these are the same for EV or ICE.
And if you have to have more than one vehicle to meet all of your
transportation needs, then you have more than one vehicle that
needs to be maintained.

We are very (physically) comfortable making long trips in the SUV;
it\'s reasonably plush, ample leg/headroom, well appointed, etc.
Or, short trips around town. We can carry lots of luggage -- or
groceries/purchased items including oversized items. We don\'t have
to worry about running out of gas. Or, of being far from an
\"authorized repair center\". We have adequate ACbrrr and heat (if
we ever find ourselves where heat is needed) WITHOUT worrying that
we are affecting our travel range.

We could get better gas mileage if we rode motorcycles. But,
would probably not like being out in the heat. Or, greater
comfort driving a (chauffeured) stretch limo -- but a helluva
time storing it! It would be a lot easier to load the back
of a pickup with oversized items -- but not as comfortable to
drive.
AND have to set aside a place to *store*
the damn thing when I\'m using some OTHER vehicle (because the EV wasn\'t
p.up to the task)?

I just park near the car rental place while renting an ICE.
Where do you store it AT HOME? How do you purchase lumber, pipe/conduit,
lawn furnishings, etc.?

Call a friend.
I\'m sure they LOVE having to compensate for your needs with THEIR
time/materials. Of course, YOU reciprocate (at some cost to yourself),
right?
You should just try getting a better paying job so you can afford a better vehicle!

But I don\'t need the money and/or better job/vehicle.
So, you\'re just someone sitting around waiting to die (your
time being of no value to yourself). Must be sad...

I can always find things to do while charging. Communing SF/SJ only occasionally. Half a day fixing car is no big deal.