Art of Electronics Rave - NON Politix! :-)

[Nico Coesel]

"Richard H." <rh86@no.spam> wrote:

Nico Coesel wrote:
Whatever you do, don't use Delphi (Pascal).
You're walking into a dead end street with Delhpi.
[...]
Borland / Inprise turned Delphi in some sort of
a C clone anyway so why settle for less if you
can use the real thing: C

Interesting. I'm no Pascal buff, but used Delphi for some time before
they finally released the C++Builder platform derivative. What about it
is negative? Has it warped in newer versions (or have they stopped
updating it)? Or do you just dislike the VB-style objects?

- no real pre-processor. Essential to keep code maintainable and
re-usable. Borland made some attempts to fix this, but it still
doesn't compare to the C pre-processor.
- 4 or 5 string string types, you keep converting strings and need to
keep track of what type a string is.
- fixed number of function arguments
- not cross platform (forget about Kylix, it doesn't work and makes
the windows version of your application crash)
- more a principal reason: you see a lot of typical C functions appear
(format is the most obvious one).
- circular declarations not allowed which requires you to think about
a lot of stuff that really doesn't matter anyway.

From my personal experience: I made quite a few Pascal (when Delphi
was still called Borland Pascal) programs and I maintain some Delphi 7
projects but I always found the Pascal syntax a real PITA. C is much
more geared towards getting the job done the easy way.

Borland always seemed to be a huge supporter of Pascal, placing it ahead
of even C/C++ (as seen with Delphi's release well before C++Builder), so
it seems unlikely that they would abandon this product, or Pascal.

They already did more or less: Kylix hasn't been updated / fixed for
years.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
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[Nico Coesel]

"Kryten" <kryten_droid_obfusticator@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.01.17.03.20.08.848644@example.net...

I've seen copying machines in at least one library, where the glass goes
literally to the edge, plus about an inch or two of glass down the side.
So you only have to open the book 90 degrees to copy all the way to the
spine.


Does anyone make a scanner like that?

And preferably one that scans both sides of the book at once.

I find I get a big black bit where the spine is, and the words tend to bend
nearby.

Unless I press down pretty hard.


And dang these scanners are slow.


I'm sure there must be libraries around the world that have to archive old
books etc.

My idea:
They probably cut the cover away (which most libraries do anyway to
fit a hard cover) and put it into scanner with an automatic document
feeder. After scanning, the book gets re-assembled.

Story time:
When internet wasn't common and Netscape was a word no-one ever heard
about, I borrowed datasheet books and copied them in the super market.
It's quite interesting to see some people actually wait politely for
over 30 minutes. The Intel memory book was too much for some people
though and some got quite rude...

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
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[Jamie]

Nico Coesel wrote:

"Richard H." <rh86@no.spam> wrote:


Nico Coesel wrote:

Whatever you do, don't use Delphi (Pascal).
You're walking into a dead end street with Delhpi.
[...]
Borland / Inprise turned Delphi in some sort of
a C clone anyway so why settle for less if you
can use the real thing: C

Interesting. I'm no Pascal buff, but used Delphi for some time before
they finally released the C++Builder platform derivative. What about it
is negative? Has it warped in newer versions (or have they stopped
updating it)? Or do you just dislike the VB-style objects?


- no real pre-processor. Essential to keep code maintainable and
re-usable. Borland made some attempts to fix this, but it still
doesn't compare to the C pre-processor.
- 4 or 5 string string types, you keep converting strings and need to
keep track of what type a string is.
- fixed number of function arguments
- not cross platform (forget about Kylix, it doesn't work and makes
the windows version of your application crash)
- more a principal reason: you see a lot of typical C functions appear
(format is the most obvious one).
- circular declarations not allowed which requires you to think about
a lot of stuff that really doesn't matter anyway.

From my personal experience: I made quite a few Pascal (when Delphi
was still called Borland Pascal) programs and I maintain some Delphi 7
projects but I always found the Pascal syntax a real PITA. C is much
more geared towards getting the job done the easy way.


Borland always seemed to be a huge supporter of Pascal, placing it ahead
of even C/C++ (as seen with Delphi's release well before C++Builder), so
it seems unlikely that they would abandon this product, or Pascal.


They already did more or less: Kylix hasn't been updated / fixed for
years.

Just goes to show you how well you understand things.

i have worked in the programming field since punch cards
were used, i have followed/used C, Basic, VB, C++ ,Pascals
Assemblers, Etc. from various outfits and platforms.
i say with out a doubt that lacking the ability to write
device drivers for windows Delphi far exceeds the speed of
production time and does generate tight code.
you can fight, dicker all you want, i have VC++ (2 versions), Builder
(2 versions), Delphi (3 versions), VB , (VS) on my work Pc. along with
the compilers and IDE's needed for the AVR's and PIC's,
the number one tool i use is Delphi for fast user interface and
tight code.
i don't give a crap about the lack of little minor preprocessors that
C has over Delphi. the net results doesn't offer anything in final code
that delphi can not do ..
i have seen this argument to many times and they are normally from
those that like to play with their compiler and try to impress others by
the hard to read code from the average coder looking on to the source.
for me , its not a problem how ever, i find that some C/C++
programmers like to use what normally looks cryptic to many others and
all it does is build up their ego. in the end, where is the extra
power that suppose to make C/C++ so much better over others.?
the only difference i see between languages is those that can
generate better native code, as far as what language you want to work
with? that i think should be of a personal reference and not to say that
it makes some other language inferior.
So please , if you like C/C++ fine, i don't see anything wrong with
C/C++ and i am sure that many like it. i use it only when i need to create
drivers other wise, i use delphi because of the speed of user
interfaces, the code speed at the end, i have seen no difference that
can be measured with the human eye and i haven't yet found C/C++ code
that i couldn't convert over to Delphi and make it operate just as well.
--
I hope i didn't offend any one else here, i just had to vent.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:35:06 -0800, Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

Ok, do any of the PowerBasic gurus know if there is anything in PB that
would let it be accessible to a screen reader? I would love to be able
to write simple apps that would work for my wife!

I'm not sure what you mean. Details?

John

 

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:35:06 -0800, Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

Ok, do any of the PowerBasic gurus know if there is anything in PB that
would let it be accessible to a screen reader? I would love to be able
to write simple apps that would work for my wife!


Not sure what your talking about, but to write apps real easy, try

VisualBasic 6.0

--
Charlie

 

[Charles Edmondson]

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:35:06 -0800, Charles Edmondson
edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:


Ok, do any of the PowerBasic gurus know if there is anything in PB that
would let it be accessible to a screen reader? I would love to be able
to write simple apps that would work for my wife!




I'm not sure what you mean. Details?

John

Ok, I'll see what I can do.

My wife uses JAWS to read the screen for her. It bascially is supposed
to see the information behind the display, and text to speech that
information to her. The challenges are navigating around the display,
and having the information there when she get there. I can't tell you
the joys of getting some software package (linke Omnipage 10) and
finding out the ONLY way to do major functions is to click on an image
with a mouse. No menus for those functions, no links that you can tab
to, you just have to 'feel' your way to it.

Or just as bad, it pops up a dialog box containing vital information,
and there is nothing there but an image, no text or title that can be
read by her system, so she is just hosed.

So, my real question concerning PB is does it have the links that would
let her read it. I don't really expect you to know, it was more a
rhetorical question. I am sure I would have to consult with the
developers to find out for sure.

--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems

 

[Nico Coesel]

nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:32:59 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel)
wrote:


It seems you are a long time user of Powerbasic. I have used it in the
past but other languages pushed it to the background due to the lack
of support of Windows. I know it is bloody fast though. How is the
current version? Did you ever try to write a Windows GUI based
application with it?

NO! I mostly use the 16-bit DOS version, or the 32-bit Console
Compiler if I need huge arrays or have to do TCP/IP or whatever. There
is a third version, the Windows version, but I haven't tried it. It
allows one to write true Win apps, and DLLs too, if you care for that
sort of thing.

I always write the low level stuff in C. If I need something GUI, I
use VB which I'm not totally happy with. I think I'll try to download
the PB for windows and see what it does.

I just installed it and took a look around, but I didn't really like
what I was looking at. I think VB is easier to use for the Windows GUI
stuff and C is more flexible for the technical stuff. So it is two
times 'no' for PB when it comes to writing apps under Windows.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

 

[Kryten]

"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.01.17.03.20.08.848644@example.net...

I've seen copying machines in at least one library, where the glass goes
literally to the edge, plus about an inch or two of glass down the side.
So you only have to open the book 90 degrees to copy all the way to the
spine.

Does anyone make a scanner like that?

And preferably one that scans both sides of the book at once.

I find I get a big black bit where the spine is, and the words tend to bend
nearby.

Unless I press down pretty hard.


And dang these scanners are slow.


I'm sure there must be libraries around the world that have to archive old
books etc.

 

[Kryten]

"Nico Coesel" <nico@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
news:41ec0b7f.265057642@news.planet.nl...

My idea:
They probably cut the cover away (which most libraries do anyway to
fit a hard cover) and put it into scanner with an automatic document
feeder. After scanning, the book gets re-assembled.

I suspect the feeder is an expensive item.
I don't have one.
And I have never seen one on a scanner.

Libraries have the bookbinding skills to reassemble a book well, but I
don't.

I expect my library would say "WTF have you done to these books?!".

I borrowed datasheet books and copied them in the super market.
It's quite interesting to see some people actually wait politely for
over 30 minutes. The Intel memory book was too much for some people
though and some got quite rude...

I have to agree with them, it is only there for a few pages of copying.

Not entire books!

If I were in that situation I would offer the machine up if I saw people
waiting with their few sheets.

 

[Clarence_A]

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote in message
news:1105699050.919586.89300@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Name a device invented since 1989 that you think deserves
inclusion.
JeffM

How about any of the scores of cheap, powerful flash
microcontrollers
with more [peripherals] [than] you can shake a stick at.
Al Borowski
Chapter 11; Figure 8.86 (and I didn't mean re-invented).

Great sense of humor. &gt

I wonder how many of the parts listed can even be bought now?

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:52:07 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:18:01 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

[snip]

If you buy PB3.5, I'll send you some of my programs as examples.

John

Is there a difference between Power Basic and Visual Basic?

...Jim Thompson


Well Microslop makes VB, and PowerBasic makes PB. PB is actually
evolved from Borland TurboBasic. It compiles anything in about 0.1
seconds and executes something like 20x as fast as VB. It uses the old
INPUT..PRINT paradigm, like all the classic DOS and other Basics.

[snip]

Well that settles it... in my Pascal days I was a Borland fan. And
their spreadsheet program... can't remember the name now :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:56:10 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:19:23 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:05:44 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:44:15 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:05:40 -0500, "mc" <mc_no_spam@uga.edu> wrote:


Recently cruised the Computers section of Borders Books. There were
precisely ZERO books on the hardware of computing, and thousands on
software. A shrink-wrapped set of "Microsoft .NET Foundation" took an
entire shelf section by itself, roughly 8000 pages, for a mere $240.

Makes me nostalgic for the days when mere mortals could write
programs.

You still can. Get any version of any subset of Visual Studio (even the $99
single-language one) and lots and lots of documentation is on disk --

But I don't want lots and lots of documentation! That's the point.

Actually, I do program a lot, embedded 68K assembly and PowerBasic on
PCs. Windows is insane... more effort goes into the operator interface
and dealing with the OS than goes into solving the problem at hand.

John

But then the program is easy to use, which is the payoff. Do you
really relish the appearance of a DOS screen on a program you didn't
write? How will the editing work? How do you go back to change
something 3 steps back? Ugh.



Hey, my programs are easy to use and have nice looking screens. Shall
I post one?

John

Sure.

As to the question. For little console-based stuff that has no
significant user interface, I used to use Borland C++ (and before
that, Borland Pascal), but I'm now using DevC++ (free download). The
latter is a very nice IDE with the Mingw gcc port underneath. Just
because I use C and C-like languages (together with a bit of asm)
most, so it's the easiest for me.

I don't do significant Windows programs, I pay other people to do them
when required. I've used Visual Basic and it wasn't hard to create a
nice-looking user interface, but I don't really want to spend the
mental bandwidth on doing that sort of thing. For someone that works
with it regularly it would be a different equation.

Python (also C-like) has some interesting characteristics, and a lot
of stuff out there that can be plugged into it. Such as reportlab that
can create PDF files directly- good for dynamic pdfs on web pages, but
also useful for other things. I've played with it enough to think that
if I had more time, I'd be using it more.

I have not used Powerbasic since it came on 5.25" floppy disks.

Now it comes in a CD jewel case. With one floppy disk inside.

John