Are there still cordless flip phones?...

[Joerg]

Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of
the 3G shut-off, a question arises:

Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular landline
or DECT? Many older and disabled people need that. Regular cordless
phones are bulky and have exposed knobs. Not practical to carry in a
pocket. It can be bone simple, even sans display or maybe single-line.
Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone numbers and no keypad suffices.
In the past they existed:

https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg
https://www.uniden.info/download/ompdf/ELBT595om.pdf

Excellent idea, but then all that went away. There are some
single-button lanyard systems but usually way overpriced. Most come with
mandatory and expensive subscription.

Are there alternatives?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[server]

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in news:j95dloFglolU1
@mid.individual.net:

> https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg

I do not know if that band was public use here. Or could have since
changed?

Let me whip out my US Radio spectrum chart...

Very narrow slot. Maybe they sold it off.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/03/22 05:27, Joerg wrote:

Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of the 3G
shut-off, a question arises:

Worse: forcibly changing all landlines to SIP via a router.
What happens when there is a power cut?
What happens where cellular reception is patchy?

Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular landline or DECT?
Many older and disabled people need that. Regular cordless phones are bulky and
have exposed knobs. Not practical to carry in a pocket. It can be bone simple,
even sans display or maybe single-line. Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone
numbers and no keypad suffices. In the past they existed:

I have cellular flip phone so I can bury it in my
pocket, but they are rare. Doro makes such phones for
the elderly at reasonable prices.

https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg
https://www.uniden.info/download/ompdf/ELBT595om.pdf

Excellent idea, but then all that went away. There are some single-button
lanyard systems but usually way overpriced. Most come with mandatory and
expensive subscription.

Years ago my mother had a phone from amazon that
had a pendant emergency button. When pressed
it dials up to three different numbers until
someone answers.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amplicom-PowerTel-Alarm-Corded-Telephone/dp/B001EZC4SG

\"Currently unavailable\" of course, but it might
be worth looking at that manufacturer\'s current
products

 

[Rich S]

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 8:41:06 AM UTC, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 13/03/22 05:27, Joerg wrote:
Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of the 3G
shut-off, a question arises:
Worse: forcibly changing all landlines to SIP via a router.
What happens when there is a power cut?
What happens where cellular reception is patchy?
Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular landline or DECT?
Many older and disabled people need that. Regular cordless phones are bulky and
have exposed knobs. Not practical to carry in a pocket. It can be bone simple,
even sans display or maybe single-line. Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone
numbers and no keypad suffices. In the past they existed:
I have cellular flip phone so I can bury it in my
pocket, but they are rare. Doro makes such phones for
the elderly at reasonable prices.
https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg
https://www.uniden.info/download/ompdf/ELBT595om.pdf

Excellent idea, but then all that went away. There are some single-button
lanyard systems but usually way overpriced. Most come with mandatory and
expensive subscription.
Years ago my mother had a phone from amazon that
had a pendant emergency button. When pressed
it dials up to three different numbers until
someone answers.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amplicom-PowerTel-Alarm-Corded-Telephone/dp/B001EZC4SG

\"Currently unavailable\" of course, but it might
be worth looking at that manufacturer\'s current
products

Hi Joerg,
Another approach, is many DECT cordless phone/answers also
have Bluetooth feature, so the use can pair wireless headset
with the base. A carefully chosen location for base might give
you enough range with the BT headset / connection.

All users no matter the age, appreciate a well designed product.
Ease of use that attains excellent level represents
a well thought design, it takes work, and is not an accident.

I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client. I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. Its only
benefit I see is a obvious \"answer\" and \"end call\" actions
re opening/closing via the hinge switch.

IME, people \"of a certain age\" &/or with dexterity issues, etc.,
just need some parameters \"increased\" .
I.e. large(er) buttons with high contrast labeling, and
no confusing symbols, no misplaced switches/buttons,
Also nice, \"snappy\" force-deflection behavior of the push-buttons.
(mechanical feedback). Other feedback (beeps, lights) too.
The hand-grip area should be free of any buttons, (anything that
could be mistakenly pressed by the user). Bigger fonts,
louder audio, Etc,
well, you get the idea.
regards, RS

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 3/13/2022 5:19 PM, Rich S wrote:
....

I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client. I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. ...

I had a flip phone until 4 years ago when my wife (spontaneously) bought
me an iPhone. I really like its camera. Otherwise not so much - it\'s
WAY harder to use. I\'m constantly getting screens that I never wanted
and accidentally invoked. Or can\'t figure out what I do want to do.
Never had those problems with the flip phone.

There\'s very little that I want a phone to do and the iPhone\'s feature
glut obscures the essentials.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:41:06 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 13/03/22 05:27, Joerg wrote:
Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of the 3G
shut-off, a question arises:
Worse: forcibly changing all landlines to SIP via a router.
What happens when there is a power cut?
What happens where cellular reception is patchy?

I have exactly that problem. I have nearly no cell service here. I have to use the cell phone over the Internet. When the Internet is down I can\'t place a phone call to the provider to report it. I can send a text message by typing it and finding a spot with enough cellular signal to get a \"burst\" transmission. Voice is hard to get to connect though.

If the electricity is out, I have to get in the car, then drive up the hill to get a signal on the phone. The electric company isn\'t SMS capable. Maybe I need to bring that up at the next shareholders meeting. It\'s a coop, so all the customers are shareholders.

Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular landline or DECT?
Many older and disabled people need that. Regular cordless phones are bulky and
have exposed knobs. Not practical to carry in a pocket. It can be bone simple,
even sans display or maybe single-line. Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone
numbers and no keypad suffices. In the past they existed:
I have cellular flip phone so I can bury it in my
pocket, but they are rare. Doro makes such phones for
the elderly at reasonable prices.

Every cell provider offers flip phones. ATT sent me one to replace my old, incompatible phone that has huge number buttons and a big screen for a flip phone. They did a poor job for the blind though. The pip on the \'5\' button is very slight and they have no pips on the red (power) and green (call) buttons. My friend who is legally blind has a similar model and has some trouble feeling his way around the keypad on that one too. His microwave and house phone have velcro bits on the important buttons, then he has to hunt for the rest. I couldn\'t find a way to add speed dial numbers on the dam thing. They expect you to use the friggin\' menu based directory! Fortunately his phone company offers speed dial. So he can call anyone in the list, up to 8 people if I recall.

It would be so easy to add the pips in a way that he could feel them easily, but things are not really designed for the users. They are designed for the bosses of the designers. A true Dilbert experience.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 5:19:30 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 8:41:06 AM UTC, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 13/03/22 05:27, Joerg wrote:
Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of the 3G
shut-off, a question arises:
Worse: forcibly changing all landlines to SIP via a router.
What happens when there is a power cut?
What happens where cellular reception is patchy?
Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular landline or DECT?
Many older and disabled people need that. Regular cordless phones are bulky and
have exposed knobs. Not practical to carry in a pocket. It can be bone simple,
even sans display or maybe single-line. Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone
numbers and no keypad suffices. In the past they existed:
I have cellular flip phone so I can bury it in my
pocket, but they are rare. Doro makes such phones for
the elderly at reasonable prices.
https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg
https://www.uniden.info/download/ompdf/ELBT595om.pdf

Excellent idea, but then all that went away. There are some single-button
lanyard systems but usually way overpriced. Most come with mandatory and
expensive subscription.
Years ago my mother had a phone from amazon that
had a pendant emergency button. When pressed
it dials up to three different numbers until
someone answers.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amplicom-PowerTel-Alarm-Corded-Telephone/dp/B001EZC4SG

\"Currently unavailable\" of course, but it might
be worth looking at that manufacturer\'s current
products
Hi Joerg,
Another approach, is many DECT cordless phone/answers also
have Bluetooth feature, so the use can pair wireless headset
with the base. A carefully chosen location for base might give
you enough range with the BT headset / connection.

I seem to recall my friend\'s house phone has a means of connecting to his cell phone to make calls. Not sure what good that is other than being able to use a larger, more facile device.

All users no matter the age, appreciate a well designed product.
Ease of use that attains excellent level represents
a well thought design, it takes work, and is not an accident.

Amen! There are so many products I see, telephones included, that are redesigned every six months, but don\'t change lots of mistakes. In fact, there are often software glitches that remain in generation after generation because they don\'t want to touch anything they don\'t have to.

I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client. I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. Its only
benefit I see is a obvious \"answer\" and \"end call\" actions
re opening/closing via the hinge switch.

He said, so the phone can be carried around the house in his pocket. A house phone requires a bleeding holster or something.

IME, people \"of a certain age\" &/or with dexterity issues, etc.,
just need some parameters \"increased\" .
I.e. large(er) buttons with high contrast labeling, and
no confusing symbols, no misplaced switches/buttons,
Also nice, \"snappy\" force-deflection behavior of the push-buttons.
(mechanical feedback). Other feedback (beeps, lights) too.
The hand-grip area should be free of any buttons, (anything that
could be mistakenly pressed by the user). Bigger fonts,
louder audio, Etc,
well, you get the idea.
regards, RS

The flip phones are made for the older generation and often have haptic buttons with larger keycaps that are easier to see. They just don\'t provide proper pips to find the buttons if you can\'t see them.

Getting old sucks and no one cares.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2022 2:19 PM, Rich S wrote:

Another approach, is many DECT cordless phone/answers also
have Bluetooth feature, so the use can pair wireless headset
with the base. A carefully chosen location for base might give
you enough range with the BT headset / connection.

I suspect the issue is portability. It blows my mind that folks
carry their (cell) phones around the house with them -- or, have to
leave it someplace they can rush to when it rings lest they miss
an incoming call.

OTOH, if you *need* to carry <something>, you\'d want it to be as
small as possible.

We have BT earpieces so the phone system can find us from
anywhere on the property (beacons located in the front and back
yards). But, I think a button -- for emergencies -- would be
easier for someone to deal with (esp if in cognitive decline).

[We have audio monitors in the bathrooms that \"listen\" for
cries of distress so the occupant doesn\'t need to wear an
earpiece in the shower]

> All users no matter the age, appreciate a well designed product.

I\'m not sure that\'s true. I see lots of poorly designed products
in use -- simply because folks don\'t have a real choice.

Close your eyes and try to use your microwave oven. Or, your
household thermostat.

Plug your ears and try to do laundry -- how often will you \"forget\"
there are clothes in the wash?

Ease of use that attains excellent level represents
a well thought design, it takes work, and is not an accident.

Too often, engineers make these decisions and not folks who are
actually skilled in their markets.

We designed a piece of kit for commercial fisher/lobster-men
decades ago. As it would be in a wet environment, we opted for
a membrane keypad (relatively new at the time). I complained to
my boss that the buttons were too hard to press; it was like
pressing on a piece of metal (no \"give\"). He laughed and
described the *working* hands of a fisherman, covered with
fish guts poking at the buttons on a rough sea...

I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client. I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. Its only
benefit I see is a obvious \"answer\" and \"end call\" actions
re opening/closing via the hinge switch.

I\'d guess size and the fact that the buttons are protected when
closed. No \"butt-dialing\". No \"screens\" to sort through.

IME, people \"of a certain age\" &/or with dexterity issues, etc.,
just need some parameters \"increased\" .
I.e. large(er) buttons with high contrast labeling, and
no confusing symbols, no misplaced switches/buttons,
Also nice, \"snappy\" force-deflection behavior of the push-buttons.
(mechanical feedback). Other feedback (beeps, lights) too.
The hand-grip area should be free of any buttons, (anything that
could be mistakenly pressed by the user). Bigger fonts,
louder audio, Etc,

As a screen shouldn\'t respond to \"touches\" by your cheek, etc.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 8:02:07 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2022 2:19 PM, Rich S wrote:
Another approach, is many DECT cordless phone/answers also
have Bluetooth feature, so the use can pair wireless headset
with the base. A carefully chosen location for base might give
you enough range with the BT headset / connection.
I suspect the issue is portability. It blows my mind that folks
carry their (cell) phones around the house with them -- or, have to
leave it someplace they can rush to when it rings lest they miss
an incoming call.

OTOH, if you *need* to carry <something>, you\'d want it to be as
small as possible.

We have BT earpieces so the phone system can find us from
anywhere on the property (beacons located in the front and back
yards). But, I think a button -- for emergencies -- would be
easier for someone to deal with (esp if in cognitive decline).

[We have audio monitors in the bathrooms that \"listen\" for
cries of distress so the occupant doesn\'t need to wear an
earpiece in the shower]
All users no matter the age, appreciate a well designed product.
I\'m not sure that\'s true. I see lots of poorly designed products
in use -- simply because folks don\'t have a real choice.

Close your eyes and try to use your microwave oven. Or, your
household thermostat.

Plug your ears and try to do laundry -- how often will you \"forget\"
there are clothes in the wash?
Ease of use that attains excellent level represents
a well thought design, it takes work, and is not an accident.
Too often, engineers make these decisions and not folks who are
actually skilled in their markets.

We designed a piece of kit for commercial fisher/lobster-men
decades ago. As it would be in a wet environment, we opted for
a membrane keypad (relatively new at the time). I complained to
my boss that the buttons were too hard to press; it was like
pressing on a piece of metal (no \"give\"). He laughed and
described the *working* hands of a fisherman, covered with
fish guts poking at the buttons on a rough sea...
I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client. I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. Its only
benefit I see is a obvious \"answer\" and \"end call\" actions
re opening/closing via the hinge switch.
I\'d guess size and the fact that the buttons are protected when
closed. No \"butt-dialing\". No \"screens\" to sort through.
IME, people \"of a certain age\" &/or with dexterity issues, etc.,
just need some parameters \"increased\" .
I.e. large(er) buttons with high contrast labeling, and
no confusing symbols, no misplaced switches/buttons,
Also nice, \"snappy\" force-deflection behavior of the push-buttons.
(mechanical feedback). Other feedback (beeps, lights) too.
The hand-grip area should be free of any buttons, (anything that
could be mistakenly pressed by the user). Bigger fonts,
louder audio, Etc,
As a screen shouldn\'t respond to \"touches\" by your cheek, etc.

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and \"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what 10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the wrong phone.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rich S]

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and \"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what 10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up
so routine cleaning might help ;-)

re face triggering, the IR reflective sensor
(near the speaker / ear piece transducer)
is supposed to detect when the phone is
against any surface (like your face, a table,...)
and so shut off the screen & touch interface.
If that sensor is gunked up, well, see above.
cheers, RS

 

[John Doe]

Rich S <richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

> touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up

I made all sorts of (unsophisticated) touch switches for chess clocks. The
accuracy of smartphone touch screens is impressive. I always enable Developer
Options \"Show touch\" (or whatever) to see what it senses.

 

[Joerg]

On 3/13/22 4:04 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 3/13/2022 5:19 PM, Rich S wrote:
...
I\'m curious why you think a Flip phone is better for your
client.  I admit my elder family members like them too, but
honestly I don\'t think that design is so easy to use. ...

They are more sturdy than smart phones. No butt cracks in the screen, no
accidental button presses. Good flip phones also do not accidentally
turn themselves on in a pocket and then when you have an emergency the
battery is exhausted.

I had a flip phone until 4 years ago when my wife (spontaneously) bought
me an iPhone.  I really like its camera.  Otherwise not so much - it\'s
WAY harder to use.

Exactly. Just thefact that nearly everything is touch-screen on those is
a problem for elderly.

... I\'m constantly getting screens that I never wanted
and accidentally invoked.  Or can\'t figure out what I do want to do.
Never had those problems with the flip phone.

Yup. Not much different with Android. Flip phone are so much simpler.
You open them up and either start dialing or hit one of the speed dial
buttons. That\'s it. When a call comes in all you have to do is fold it
open and talk.

There\'s very little that I want a phone to do and the iPhone\'s feature
glut obscures the essentials.

I use a lot of stuff on my smart phone now, though almost nothing that
has to do with communications. Missing my Nokia 2115i candy bar phone,
still have it and that thing is almost indestructible.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 3/13/22 12:40 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 13/03/22 05:27, Joerg wrote:
Now that the cell system has been botched for small devices because of
the 3G shut-off, a question arises:

Worse: forcibly changing all landlines to SIP via a router.
What happens when there is a power cut?
What happens where cellular reception is patchy?

One of the many reasons why I have a ham radio license and
emergency-capable radios. Since California has a third-world power grid
that is essential. Cell towers have back-up times between zero and a few
hours, after which ... nada. BT, several times. Within less than 1/2h I
had zero bars on the cell phone. During a larger wildfire even that
little backup won\'t help because the tower itself can\'t get a connection
to the network.

Yet, things such as strokes and heart attacks don\'t stop happening just
because there is an outage and then I hope neighbors will remember the
property with those weird antennas and come here for help.

Are there still cordless flip phones that tie into the regular
landline or DECT? Many older and disabled people need that. Regular
cordless phones are bulky and have exposed knobs. Not practical to
carry in a pocket. It can be bone simple, even sans display or maybe
single-line. Heck, even half a dozen programmed phone numbers and no
keypad suffices. In the past they existed:

I have cellular flip phone so I can bury it in my
pocket, but they are rare. Doro makes such phones for
the elderly at reasonable prices.

That, and you never know whether it will work on your provider\'s network
until you have bought and unboxed the phone.

Connecting to the landline via DECT or something like that would be much
better. Then the fire department would also immediately have the address
which is important if someone has had an accident and is barely
conscious or has dementia and thinks he still in Upper Sandusky where he
was raised.

https://jerhetrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/19398b-1170x780.jpg
https://www.uniden.info/download/ompdf/ELBT595om.pdf

Excellent idea, but then all that went away. There are some
single-button lanyard systems but usually way overpriced. Most come
with mandatory and expensive subscription.

Years ago my mother had a phone from amazon that
had a pendant emergency button. When pressed
it dials up to three different numbers until
someone answers.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Amplicom-PowerTel-Alarm-Corded-Telephone/dp/B001EZC4SG


\"Currently unavailable\" of course, but it might
be worth looking at that manufacturer\'s current
products

Yes, and many cell providers now only offer smart phones. So you have to
buy one externally ... if you can even find one ... and hope it will be
compatible with heir network because they can\'t really tell until they
are told the IMEI number of the phone. Which you won\'t get before
opening the package, and then it\'s usually non-returnable.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-) [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-) [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

+42

OTOH, cars have an ever increasing number of controls. I suspect
we\'re at the point of cognitive overload to be able to \"blindly\"
recall where a specific control is located.

Touchscreens, touchpads, big knobs, etc. -- all pull attention
off the roadway.

*And*, have prompt feedback as to \"which control we ACTUALLY just
activated\"!

Even speech interfaces are flakey enough to be a distraction
(\"now, what did it THINK I said??\")

I\'ve seen consumer HUDs and they show some promise for feedback.
But, you\'re still faced with the issue of telling the car what you want.
And, the (lengthy) lag before it can provide feedback on what it
has decided your intentions to be (you being distracted awaiting
that feedback for that interval)

 

[Joerg]

On 3/15/22 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-)  [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

+42

+43

OTOH, cars have an ever increasing number of controls.  I suspect
we\'re at the point of cognitive overload to be able to \"blindly\"
recall where a specific control is located.

I purposely bought one that doesn\'t. My current car doesn\'t even have
power locks or power windows. Didn\'t want them. What ain\'t there can\'t
break.

Best was my old Citroen 2CV. In stock condition it did not contain one
lone semiconductor. Not even a diode. This was my car back in the 80\'s:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/2CV.jpg

16 horses. VROOOM

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 15/03/22 22:49, Joerg wrote:

On 3/15/22 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-)  [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

As I\'ve mentioned before, the Tesla salesman couldn\'t use
the touchscreen to turn on window demisting. He tried
voice activation, and managed to turn on under-seat heating.

Now try doing that when in rush hour traffic by a school,
or when some idiot cuts you up, or there is a big tarmac
patch interpreted as a hole in road.

+42


+43

OTOH, cars have an ever increasing number of controls.  I suspect
we\'re at the point of cognitive overload to be able to \"blindly\"
recall where a specific control is located.


I purposely bought one that doesn\'t. My current car doesn\'t even have power
locks or power windows. Didn\'t want them. What ain\'t there can\'t break.

Best was my old Citroen 2CV. In stock condition it did not contain one lone
semiconductor. Not even a diode. This was my car back in the 80\'s:

In the UK that was delightfully advertised as, with
one exception, not having anything, e.g.
water-cooled engine: no
The exception was
central locking: yes (you can reach all doors from
the driver\'s seat)

 

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2022 5:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

As I\'ve mentioned before, the Tesla salesman couldn\'t use
the touchscreen to turn on window demisting. He tried
voice activation, and managed to turn on under-seat heating.

Now try doing that when in rush hour traffic by a school,
or when some idiot cuts you up, or there is a big tarmac
patch interpreted as a hole in road.

There\'s nothing wrong with adding control *of* additional
systems/features. The problem is how you expose that control
to the user.

It seldom rains, here. But, when it does, it comes down in
buckets!

Because it is such an infrequent event, we have to relearn *how*
to engage the wipers each season. The wiper control is on a
column mounted \"stick\" (like the turn signals). But, there
are settings for low, high and intermittent (which requires use
of another control to determine the delay between wipes) -- as
well as \"mist\".

And, of course, engaging the \"washer\".

Plus similar settings for the *rear* wiper.

So, the first rain of the season finds the driver \"experimenting\"
to get the wipers to behave as he\'d like. Thankfully, there
is immediate feedback for these controls. And, there fixed
location on the column stick means the driver can keep MOST of
his attention on the road.

Of course, automatic wipers eliminates *some* of this. But, every
\"automatic\" feature makes manual control harder -- because you
have less familiarity with those \"overrides\".

The HVAC controls are usually in the \"auto\" and \"synchronized\"
states. So, all you have to do is tweek the temperature (using
a knob in a fixed location) and glance at the current setpoint.
But, if you want to disengage the auto/sync features, your attention
is diverted as you poke around waiting to see when the indicators
extinguish.

Want to route airflow differently? Button in a fixed location
BUT you have to observe icons on the center screen to determine
the \"current\" configuration.

You can turn *off* the seat heaters (when they get accidentally
engaged -- due to their piss poor location). But, can\'t tell
if they are on/off without looking off to the side at the
center console to examine the indicators, there. (too much
lag for you to notice the *effect* of disabling them)

And, it\'s nice that the infotainment presets track the current
driver\'s preferences. But, the actual *settings* don\'t! So,
you\'re stuck listening to whatever the previous driver had selected.
And, at whatever volume, tonal content, etc. (how does this make sense?)

(side) Mirror and DRIVER seat positions are restored. But, not the
rear view mirror or preferences for which side mirrors tilt downward
automatically, etc.

I.e., principle of least surprise: restore the car to the settings in
effect when THIS driver last occupied the driver\'s seat! (I would
go so far as to include the *passenger* seat position!)

You\'d think folks with the resources of auto manufacturers would
put more thought into these decisions...

[Who could possibly think NOT recognizing UI \"events\" for 15+ seconds
would be tolerable? Turn on ignition (don\'t start car because you\'d
be wasting fuel!). Wait 15 seconds for the smarts to come on line.
Diddle with controls. *Then* start the car -- and your trip...
And lets not get started on how brain-damaged the GPSs are!]

<rolls eyes>

 

[Mike Monett]

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 3/15/22 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-)  [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

+42


+43

OTOH, cars have an ever increasing number of controls.  I suspect
we\'re at the point of cognitive overload to be able to \"blindly\"
recall where a specific control is located.


I purposely bought one that doesn\'t. My current car doesn\'t even have
power locks or power windows. Didn\'t want them. What ain\'t there can\'t
break.

Best was my old Citroen 2CV. In stock condition it did not contain one
lone semiconductor. Not even a diode. This was my car back in the 80\'s:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/2CV.jpg

16 horses. VROOOM

Firefox refused to load due to certificate problem.



--
MRM

 

[Tauno Voipio]

On 16.3.22 4.00, Mike Monett wrote:

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

On 3/15/22 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-03-15 18:34, Rich S wrote:

Lol, I\'ve had my smart phone sense a touch when I didn\'t even touch
the screen. In the car the screen is not so sensitive, but it is
terrible about thinking a touch was a swipe because the car moved
as I touched the screen. A touch screen is a terrible idea in a
moving car. You would think some of the effort in the millions of
lines of code would be for voice control for most of the features
in the car, but it only responds to \"dial\" and \"navigate\" and
\"play\" sorts of commands. Even my bleeding phone will tell me what
10,000 divided by 365 is. The answer is 42. Seems like the answer
is always 42, no matter the question. Hmmm... maybe I have the
wrong phone.

--

touchscreens can get flaky if the surface is gunked up so routine
cleaning might help ;-)  [...]

In a car, the only user interface should be buttons and levers
that your fingers can find and recognize by touch. All else is
BAD!

+42


+43

OTOH, cars have an ever increasing number of controls.  I suspect
we\'re at the point of cognitive overload to be able to \"blindly\"
recall where a specific control is located.


I purposely bought one that doesn\'t. My current car doesn\'t even have
power locks or power windows. Didn\'t want them. What ain\'t there can\'t
break.

Best was my old Citroen 2CV. In stock condition it did not contain one
lone semiconductor. Not even a diode. This was my car back in the 80\'s:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/2CV.jpg

16 horses. VROOOM

Firefox refused to load due to certificate problem.

Mike, just click \'Advanced\' and to the next page \'Accept\'.

Nice basic French. We called them \'overall for four men\'.

--

-TV