Any decent free electrical cad programs out there ???

[JeffM]

I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
I offered him to use what I am developing for free
Stephan Rose

:I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
:I offered him [the] use [for free of] what I am developing

Note that I have redacted your text
in an order that communicates what I think you meant.
Perhaps this is all about a language barrier.
My interpretation of what you initially said
was that the package you are developing would be free to all.

Got a question for you though,
why is it that you expect me to do my work for free?

It is done all the time.

DJ Delorie, who contributed to this thread,
does exactly that on an open source project called "PCB"
(and, by extension, on "gEDA").

Seriously, why?

People do things for all sorts of reasons.

Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

All I'm looking for from you is candor. A statement like
**I can offer you a freeware beta of my payware project**
would have been apt.

 

[Stephan Rose]

The fundamental difference is you are developing a product for sale, and
asking all of us "potential customers" to do your testing and quality control
for free. After we have invested our time and great effort in helping you
develop your product, you plan to then do us the great favor of letting
us pay for a seat.

Yeah...Right!

Actually Yeah...Wrong! I would have no problem issuing a free license
to those who contributed enough to deserve this. I think we can easily
agree that I couldn't just do this with everyone who just downloads
the app and plays with it for 5 mins and then posts a comment. But
those individuals who do really help out...I would be more than happy
to.

If you want to keep your product closed, that is fine. Keep it closed,
but pay for your own development... pay for the advice you seek.

It's funny, I see so many users in various forums always complaining
on how developers don't listen to the end-users and so on. But when a
developer actually tries to include the end-users in the development
stage and *is* listening...that apparently isn't right either!

It is no different than me as a CAD user going to a
forum and discussing a problem I am having with a project I am working
on in said CAD software. Chances are in said example that said project
isn't free or open source either...

Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

The question is turned right back on you fella: Why do you expect us to
be test pilots for your software for free? 80% of any software project
is spent testing and fixing bugs.

And 80% is optimistic, I know that all too well.

I don't expect anything of anyone. I simply figured there might be
people out there that may have interest in voicing their thoughts,
suggestions and opinions during the development stage where such
things are much easier considered than after the fact. If you wish to
do so or not is entirely up to you. As far as free is concerned, see
above.

I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?

With my schematics and layout, my customer has come to me and contracted
for me to do the design and layout. When I finish the work, it belongs
to my customer, so I turn over all of the materials to my customer. In
return, my customer gives me little green pieces of paper.

And that's perfectly fine. But you only do this in exchange for those
green little peices of paper right?
--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara

 

[Stephan Rose]

On 18 Jul 2006 15:59:55 -0700, "JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
I offered him to use what I am developing for free
Stephan Rose

:I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
:I offered him [the] use [for free of] what I am developing

Note that I have redacted your text
in an order that communicates what I think you meant.

True, probably the more correct way of wording it.

Perhaps this is all about a language barrier.

While not my native language I do think that my English is more than
sufficient where that really should not pose a problem. I am not an
English professor though! =)

My interpretation of what you initially said
was that the package you are developing would be free to all.

You probably missed the first post I made a couple weeks ago which
includes links to a beta version which clearly states that what I am
working on is not freeware or open source.

Got a question for you though,
why is it that you expect me to do my work for free?

It is done all the time.
DJ Delorie, who contributed to this thread,
does exactly that on an open source project called "PCB"
(and, by extension, on "gEDA").

Seriously, why?

People do things for all sorts of reasons.
Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

Oh I realize that it is done all the time. And hey, more power to
those who can do it. However, I personally can't.

All I'm looking for from you is candor. A statement like
**I can offer you a freeware beta of my payware project**
would have been apt.

Which is precisely what I offered. I stated that my application is a
beta and that he is more than welcome to use it.
--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara

 

[DJ Delorie]

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> writes:

Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

I need it to do what I need it to do, the easiest way to make it do
that is to change it myself. Sorry, completely selfish. I can get
the best bang for the buck if I start with something that mostly does
what I want, and make the changes I need. Feeding the changes back to
the public just makes it easier to maintain them - no need to maintain
a separate set of patches for my own copy.

The prime motivation was to build this: http://www.delorie.com/house/furnace/

I'm working on a microcontroller-based version next, to get rid of the
beige PC on the floor.

 

[DJ Delorie]

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.diespammer.net> writes:

Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

For comparison, I work for Red Hat Inc. ALL our software is free (as
in freedom) and can usually be downloaded for free (as in beer). Why
do we do it? Because people pay us to make it do what they want, and
they pay us for support.

Free software doesn't have to be charity work.

 

[Stephan Rose]

On 18 Jul 2006 19:43:26 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.diespammer.net> writes:
Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

For comparison, I work for Red Hat Inc. ALL our software is free (as
in freedom) and can usually be downloaded for free (as in beer). Why
do we do it? Because people pay us to make it do what they want, and
they pay us for support.

Free software doesn't have to be charity work.

Yea but you might also have a market where something like that is more
applicable and possible to do.

If I release my app for free nobody is going to pay me to add a
feature to it they want. Nor is anyone going to pay me to support them
and tell them how to draw a line...

And if they need design support, well that falls outside my expertise
and outside the spectrum of my knowledge.

I just don't see such a model working for an application such as this.
I may actually though release a free-version of the app with some
limitations over the commercial version. Fully-featured, just limited
in board size and component count to cater to students and the guy at
home who cannot justify buying a commercial EDA package for his hobby
project. This is still very much in the open though and I haven't made
a final decision either way yet. I still need to work out the details.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara

 

[Chuck Harris]

Stephan Rose wrote:

Yeah...Right!

Actually Yeah...Wrong! I would have no problem issuing a free license
to those who contributed enough to deserve this. I think we can easily
agree that I couldn't just do this with everyone who just downloads
the app and plays with it for 5 mins and then posts a comment. But
those individuals who do really help out...I would be more than happy
to.

Yeah, I was in that kind of relationship with Orcad once, and guess what?
They were happy to sell my work, but for some reason, they never quite got
around to knocking anything off of the price for my maintenance agreement.

And when I needed for them to do something for me, all they could say was
sorry, no money in it for us.

....

And 80% is optimistic, I know that all too well.

I don't expect anything of anyone. I simply figured there might be
people out there that may have interest in voicing their thoughts,
suggestions and opinions during the development stage where such
things are much easier considered than after the fact. If you wish to
do so or not is entirely up to you. As far as free is concerned, see
above.

I'd rather funnel my energies over to DJ and the gEDA group. That way,
I know I will always be able to gain the use of the fruits of my labor.
Your product may be the next blue ribbon CAD program, but I would be willing to
bet that as a commercial product, it won't even rate "also ran" status.
You are jumping into a market that is already full to the brim with schematic
capture products. Do a little market research. What niche do you think you
are going to fill?

Putting your efforts into the gEDA camp would make you a big fish in a
small pond... if that matters to you.

I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?
With my schematics and layout, my customer has come to me and contracted
for me to do the design and layout. When I finish the work, it belongs
to my customer, so I turn over all of the materials to my customer. In
return, my customer gives me little green pieces of paper.

And that's perfectly fine. But you only do this in exchange for those
green little peices of paper right?

Actually, no. I have done numerous projects for which I have received no
compensation. Those, I make available to anyone who wants them. I published
my first freeware utility back in the early '90s.

My principal motivation for being an engineer is I like making things. I would
still be making things even if no one was willing to pay for them. The big
difference is that for pay, you may be able to convince me to make things that
interest you, instead of me only making things that interest me.

DJ and crew are doing their work on PCB and gEDA to scratch their own itches.
Some of their itches match mine.

-Chuck

 

[Anton Erasmus]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:51:01 +0200, Stephan Rose
<kermos.remove.no.spam@no.somrek.spam.net> wrote:

On 17 Jul 2006 16:21:44 -0700, "JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

using tinycad now...which is really more electronics based
cornytheclown @ hotmail.com

It sounds like you're squawking about having to build your own symbol
library.
Get over it. Everybody who uses a CAD has to do it.
(Some folks will share.)

So hey let me ask ya. Is it even worth my effort to try to include a
standard set of symbol libraries?

I don't really have the resources to manually create my own libraries
for every existing component out there so I would need to create my
own libraries based on other existing ones.

If you do provide libraries, they should be of a high standard. You
can download IPC-7351 SMT Land Pattern Libraries at
http://www.pcblibraries.com/ for various PCB CAD systems. If you can
write a translator to translate these Land patterns for your system
you will have quite a large IPC standards conforming library with
little effort. Make sure it is possible to import DXF files at least.
Creating Sil Screen Overlays in a Mechanical CAD package is often much
easier than in a PCB library program. It is also quite common to be
able to get Mechanical CAD files for connectors, from which very
accurate and detailed Silk Screen Overlays can be generated.

Regards
Anton Erasmus