An $11 trillion global hydrogen energy boom is coming....

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

This also means that the water returning to the power plant is quite
warm (about 50 C), which is too high to cool the steam exiting the low
pressure turbine and condensing it to water and create a near vacuum.

you are required to cool the water ~30\'C and you pay a
penalty if you go below that on a year average

For best Carnot efficiency, the hot side must be as hot as possible
and the cold side as cool as possible (measured in Kelvins). For this
reason, sometimes part of the district heat return water is routed
through pipes under the sidewalk to keep them snow and ice free .
Thus very cold water is available in the turbine condenser to reduce
the back pressure after the turbine. To make sense, the price obtained
from electricity must be much higher than that obtained from heat.

I think here the price per kWh is about 4x for electricity

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.

One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.

With -30 C air temperatures, you may have to use district heating
temperatures above 100 C, which requires a few bars of pressure to
avoid evaporation. In fact people have been badly burned when some old
district heating pipes have suddenly burst creating a \"geyser\".

This also means that the water returning to the power plant is quite
warm (about 50 C), which is too high to cool the steam exiting the low
pressure turbine and condensing it to water and create a near vacuum.

you are required to cool the water ~30\'C and you pay a
penalty if you go below that on a year average

A too small temperature difference between the primary sides of the
building heat exchanger is an indication of a faulty heat exchanger
and should be repaired.

For best Carnot efficiency, the hot side must be as hot as possible
and the cold side as cool as possible (measured in Kelvins). For this
reason, sometimes part of the district heat return water is routed
through pipes under the sidewalk to keep them snow and ice free .
Thus very cold water is available in the turbine condenser to reduce
the back pressure after the turbine. To make sense, the price obtained
from electricity must be much higher than that obtained from heat.

I think here the price per kWh is about 4x for electricit

3x to 4x sounds about right.

 

[Ed Lee]

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Overproduction can be sold as EV charging. In the future, EVs can communicate with charging stations for amount of power delivered based on time of use and cost. ChaDeMo already have the communication capabilities, not sure about CCS. For that reason, i don\'t see CCS replacing ChaDeMo completely.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:15:36 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

If Apple is using the water loop to cool chips, they need cold intake
water and will discharge warm water. That doesn\'t sound useful to me.
It would degrade the temperature of the municipal hot water. You can\'t
efficiently heat a building or a house or a shower with tepid water.
Maybe a swimming pool.

There is a lot of low-differential heat around, but nobody seems to
have found a way to use it.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.

Heat pumps to get rid of excess low-grade heat?

But where does the heat ultimately go?




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.

Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:30:08 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Overproduction can be sold as EV charging. In the future, EVs can communicate with charging stations for amount of power delivered based on time of use and cost. ChaDeMo already have the communication capabilities, not sure about CCS. For that reason, i don\'t see CCS replacing ChaDeMo completely.

Natural gas sounds increasingly appealing.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 9:16:56 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:30:08 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Overproduction can be sold as EV charging. In the future, EVs can communicate with charging stations for amount of power delivered based on time of use and cost. ChaDeMo already have the communication capabilities, not sure about CCS. For that reason, i don\'t see CCS replacing ChaDeMo completely.
Natural gas sounds increasingly appealing.

Yes, natural gas is good, but the problem is the methane with it.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 18.16.17 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.
Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

the idea is to cool the internal cooling loop with heatpumps that dump
the heat in the district heating system

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:21:00 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low

Of course it\'s mostly methane. Which is mostly hydrogen. And it\'s
cheap and plantiful and easy to distribute and store. An ideal fuel.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:16:07 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.

Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

The Google data center in Finland take in cold lake water, dump
computer heat into it and the exhaust water is used for district
heating, apparently through a heat pump.

They also bought the full electric production of a wind farm for a
decade or two. The wind farm runs without subsidies.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:25:07 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 18.16.17 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.
Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

the idea is to cool the internal cooling loop with heatpumps that dump
the heat in the district heating system

It needs a power source, too, to pump heat uphill. Sounds very green
and very inefficient.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:12:24 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:15:36 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

If Apple is using the water loop to cool chips, they need cold intake
water and will discharge warm water. That doesn\'t sound useful to me.
It would degrade the temperature of the municipal hot water. You can\'t
efficiently heat a building or a house or a shower with tepid water.
Maybe a swimming pool.

There is a lot of low-differential heat around, but nobody seems to
have found a way to use it.


Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.

Heat pumps to get rid of excess low-grade heat?

The steam turbine cooling water can be used as a heat source for the
absorbtion heat pump, which operates with the same principle as the
gas fired fridges in recreational vehicles.

>But where does the heat ultimately go?

You have to convert the heat to a higher temperature than the
environment to get rid of it. One alternative is to dump it to the
warm air, but at costal regions, you can dump it into the sea.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 19.16.52 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:25:07 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 18.16.17 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.
Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

the idea is to cool the internal cooling loop with heatpumps that dump
the heat in the district heating system

It needs a power source, too, to pump heat uphill. Sounds very green
and very inefficient.

making heat takes energy, making heat from available waste heat with heat pump takes less energy

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 10:31:32 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 19.16.52 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:25:07 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 18.16.17 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.
Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

the idea is to cool the internal cooling loop with heatpumps that dump
the heat in the district heating system

It needs a power source, too, to pump heat uphill. Sounds very green
and very inefficient.

making heat takes energy, making heat from available waste heat with heat pump takes less energy

I\'d expect that Apple really wants to make cold water, not heat. Chips
get faster when they are cold.

Using a 100C sink for the dump side of a chiller heat pump doesn\'t
sound like the best way to make cold water.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 20:08:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 09:16:07 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:14:24 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 06:39:45 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 12. december 2020 kl. 10.15.45 UTC+1 skrev upsid...@downunder.com:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?
Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.
when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%
To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

sure, they would also like to switch to making heat with electricity when there is
cheap wind and solar energy but afaiu taxes prevent that

The overproduction is an issue especially with wind power. Due the low
CoP (about 30-40 %) you need to build 3x nominal power wind farms
compared to coal/nuclear nominal power to get the same annual energy
production. Thus, there are quite long periods of time in which there
is a wind power overproduction (i.e. greater than the dependable power
production). During overproduction and if it can\'t be transferred to
other areas, the spot price drops to zero, making the power production
unattractive. If this overproduction can be sold as resistive heating
in rooms, this would reduce the need for more expensive heating
sources.

Solar production is more precipitable at least in a larger network.


One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

I think the temperature most receive is around 70\'C and it varies through the year

While up to 70 C would be required for the radiator and about 55 C in
hot water production (to kill bacteria) you have to consider the
temperature losses in the building heat exchanger.

Apple certainly wouldn\'t want to intake cooling water at 70C. Or
discharge it that high either.

The Google data center in Finland take in cold lake water, dump
computer heat into it and the exhaust water is used for district
heating, apparently through a heat pump.

That makes sense, but they would want to minimize their dump
temperature, so the district system would get lukewarm water from
them. The system still needs more heat pumps to boost the temperature
to useful values. It\'s a little better than pumping up from lake
temps, I guess. Maybe not.

They also bought the full electric production of a wind farm for a
decade or two. The wind farm runs without subsidies.

What do they pay per KWH? If it\'s high enough, the farm doesn\'t need a
subsidy. What do they do when there\'s no wind?

There are some insanely expensive high-morality green systems around.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 12 December 2020 at 08:30:14 UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
....
> Overproduction can be sold as EV charging. In the future, EVs can communicate with charging stations for amount of power delivered based on time of use and cost. ChaDeMo already have the communication capabilities, not sure about CCS. For that reason, i don\'t see CCS replacing ChaDeMo completely.

The CCS protocol has no limitations to prevent V2G.

In the last few days VW and Hyundai made announcements that their cars would support bidirectional charging.

https://electrek.co/2020/12/11/vw-22-kw-bi-directional-dc-charging-station-electric-vehicles/

Providing demand side control for unidirectional charging is even easier and could be done with the primitive J1772 protocol in the EVSE.

kw

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 11:39:24 AM UTC-8, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Saturday, 12 December 2020 at 08:30:14 UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
...
Overproduction can be sold as EV charging. In the future, EVs can communicate with charging stations for amount of power delivered based on time of use and cost. ChaDeMo already have the communication capabilities, not sure about CCS. For that reason, i don\'t see CCS replacing ChaDeMo completely..
The CCS protocol has no limitations to prevent V2G.

But no provision either. ChaDeMo has full CAN communications.

In the last few days VW and Hyundai made announcements that their cars would support bidirectional charging.

https://electrek.co/2020/12/11/vw-22-kw-bi-directional-dc-charging-station-electric-vehicles/

Providing demand side control for unidirectional charging is even easier and could be done with the primitive J1772 protocol in the EVSE.

Vehicle needs to talk to charger with enough information. Hard to do with primitive J1772, which is just voltage and duty cycles.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Saturday, 12 December 2020 at 11:53:43 UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
....
> Vehicle needs to talk to charger with enough information. Hard to do with primitive J1772, which is just voltage and duty cycles.

Agreed, that\'s what I said. But even with that constraint there are some valuable behaviours that are possible.

J1772 can control the charge rate or even stop it, the power being consumed can be measured. You don\'t need any more for just simple control assuming an intelligent EVSE with an internet connection.

There are EVSEs available that will use the limited capabilities of J1772 to manage charging; to for example, share the available power with other cars or loads in the house to avoid overloads, or to limit charging to times when the costs are lower. There are pilot programs to allow control from the utility to manage the loads over a larger region.

For example:
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/07/f18/vss142_pratt_2014_p.pdf

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 1:28:24 PM UTC-8, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Saturday, 12 December 2020 at 11:53:43 UTC-8, Ed Lee wrote:
...
Vehicle needs to talk to charger with enough information. Hard to do with primitive J1772, which is just voltage and duty cycles.
Agreed, that\'s what I said. But even with that constraint there are some valuable behaviours that are possible.

J1772 can control the charge rate or even stop it, the power being consumed can be measured. You don\'t need any more for just simple control assuming an intelligent EVSE with an internet connection.

There are EVSEs available that will use the limited capabilities of J1772 to manage charging; to for example, share the available power with other cars or loads in the house to avoid overloads, or to limit charging to times when the costs are lower. There are pilot programs to allow control from the utility to manage the loads over a larger region.

For example:
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/07/f18/vss142_pratt_2014_p.pdf

Yes, it\'s possible to do it all from the EVSE side, but the problem is that the EVSE does not know what car is connected to it. For example, i might allow a Tesla to discharge (feeding the grid) to 50%, but would not want a Leaf to do that. ChaDeMo can tell the EVSE what is connected to it, CCS or J1772 can\'t.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2020-12-12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 11:15:36 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

If Apple is using the water loop to cool chips, they need cold intake
water and will discharge warm water. That doesn\'t sound useful to me.
It would degrade the temperature of the municipal hot water. You can\'t
efficiently heat a building or a house or a shower with tepid water.
Maybe a swimming pool.

There is a lot of low-differential heat around, but nobody seems to
have found a way to use it.

One of the muinicpal pools here takes waste heat from the freezers
in neighbouring shopping centre, when there\'s not enough heat a
school on the other side shares some heat from a wood-fired boiler.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1311/S00702/g.htm

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.

Heat pumps to get rid of excess low-grade heat?

But where does the heat ultimately go?

ultimately it escapes into the environment.

--
Jasen.