An $11 trillion global hydrogen energy boom is coming....

[Fred Bloggs]

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 6:52:40 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule..

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

Venture capitalists love the idea. Anybody with any sense notices that converting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electrical energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries only lose about 15%.

In Australia the fans of the idea dream of shipping tanker loads of liquid hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming of laying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There\'s plenty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could generate a lot of solar power there.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 12:18:50 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

US energy policy is controlled by people who make money out if. They tend to more interested in maximising the money they make than they are in supplying as much energy as is required as cheaply and reliably as possible. US politicians tend to respond to the public demand created by the people who are making money out of the existing system and are prepared to spend some of that money on misleading advertising.

John Larkin does seem to be susceptible to that sort of advertising, which makes him an airhead too.

What California clearly needs is more short term storage where they can put some of the excess renewable energy. It won\'t store it from spring to August, but if the renewable energy suppliers can sell more of what they can generate in spring they are more likely to install enough extra capacity to satisfy the August demand.

Fred\'s link laid rather more emphasis on compressed air storage than his comments would lead you to expect. Hydrogen gas as power storage medium isn\'t great, but it does seem to be good enough to support pump and dump schemes to get money out of the gullible.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

Fred Bloggs wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year
schedule.

[...]

Again? How old are you, that you still believe this nonsense?

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 6:17:04 PM UTC-5, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 6:52:40 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
Venture capitalists love the idea. Anybody with any sense notices that converting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electrical energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries only lose about 15%.

Not sure efficiency is all that much of a consideration when the energy source is free. I think the idea is that the big solar installation already powering the grid will be a bit oversized to send power to the electrolysis process on the side.

In Australia the fans of the idea dream of shipping tanker loads of liquid hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming of laying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There\'s plenty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could generate a lot of solar power there.

The cable idea makes more sense just from the standpoint of shipping less mass around.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 2:46:49 AM UTC-5, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:
This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year
schedule.

[...]

Again? How old are you, that you still believe this nonsense?

They\'ve already completed most of the caverns at that Utah site.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

Simple: When we have too much, California pays Arizona to take our
excess solar and wind power.

When we don\'t have enough, we buy power from other states, who make it
from gas and coal.

That\'s called \"moral high ground\", at 30 cents per KWH.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[John Doe]

The least electronics oriented, most active troll in this group...

--
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

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On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 12:18:50 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedul
e.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Cle
an
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power stora
ge capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion
-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development nee
ded to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to
support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.

ƒ oCalifornia curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renew
able
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,ƒ

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

US energy policy is controlled by people who make money out if. They tend to more interested in maximising the money they make than they are in supplying as much energy as is required as cheaply and reliably as possible. US politicians tend to respond to the public demand created by the people who are making money out of the existing system and are prepared to spend some of that money on misleading advertising.

John Larkin does seem to be susceptible to that sort of advertising, which makes him an airhead too.

What California clearly needs is more short term storage where they can put some of the excess renewable energy. It won\'t store it from spring to August, but if the renewable energy suppliers can sell more of what they can generate in spring they are more likely to install enough extra capacity to satisfy the August demand.

Fred\'s link laid rather more emphasis on compressed air storage than his comments would lead you to expect. Hydrogen gas as power storage medium isn\'t great, but it does seem to be good enough to support pump and dump schemes to get money out of the gullible.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

Simple: When we have too much, California pays Arizona to take our
excess solar and wind power.

When we don\'t have enough, we buy power from other states, who make it
from gas and coal.

That\'s called \"moral high ground\", at 30 cents per KWH.

This MacArthur genius has ideas on the subject: Not sure the award is a recommendation of any kind.
https://www.saulgriffith.com/

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[server]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.

 

[Steve Wilson]

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year
schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the
Advanced Clean Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of
renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S.
installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi
Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-tril
lion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural
development needed to support distribution of this energy source.
Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in
funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and
development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and
validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity
announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s
Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve
performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen
and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess
renewable energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its
first rolling blackouts in August because the grid was short on
energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what
this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.

Use Thorium Molten Salt Reactors. They automatically adjust power output
to match the load. No storage is required. The first examples ran around
1965. They cannot melt down since they are already molten. They have
walk-away safety unmatched in conventional nuclear reactors.

See Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment

Lots more on Youtube. See videos by Kirk Sorensen and others.

The current problem is licensing. For example, they run at atmospheric
pressure, so no containment vessel is needed. This violates the
requirements of the nuclear licensing authorities who will not issue a
license.

Canada is a bit more liberal, and a lot of the work goes on here.

China has no such problems and is proceeding at full steam. (no pun
intended.)



--
The best designs occur in the theta state.
- sw

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.

I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%

On our construction site in Moscow, people were always stealing stuff.
They said \"It\'s OK. It doesn\'t belong to anybody.\"

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 1:59:16 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 6:17:04 PM UTC-5, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 6:52:40 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
Venture capitalists love the idea. Anybody with any sense notices that converting electrical energy into hydrogen and converting it back to electrical energy loses about 75% of the energy you started off with. Batteries only lose about 15%.

Not sure efficiency is all that much of a consideration when the energy source is free. I think the idea is that the big solar installation already powering the grid will be a bit oversized to send power to the electrolysis process on the side.

The energy source is free, but the solar cells that collect it aren\'t, and they have to have the dust washed off from time to time.

The cost of power from solar cells is largely the interest on the capital you invested to buy them in the first place, in the same way that the cost of hydroelectric power is essentially the interest on the money you had to spend to build the dam and the power station and the turbines and generating plant you put inside it.

In Australia the fans of the idea dream of shipping tanker loads of liquid hydrogen to South Korea and Japan. More realistic people are dreaming of laying an under sea cable from Northern Australia to Singapore. There\'s plenty of sunlight and open country in Northern Australia, so we could generate a lot of solar power there.

The cable idea makes more sense just from the standpoint of shipping less mass around.

Sub-sea cable isn\'t cheap, and doesn\'t last forever. Conceptually, a bunch of liquid hydrogen tankers sailing there and back along the same route are much the same sort of thing.

Electrical transit time along the cable is a lot quicker, so you haven\'t got working capital tied up in the liquid hydrogen in transit.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 10:04:50 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

Simple: When we have too much, California pays Arizona to take our
excess solar and wind power.

When we don\'t have enough, we buy power from other states, who make it
from gas and coal.

That\'s called \"moral high ground\", at 30 cents per KWH.

This MacArthur genius has ideas on the subject: Not sure the award is a recommendation of any kind.
https://www.saulgriffith.com/

He tells us that we only have 10 years to decarbonize, or the planet
is hopelessly ruined. Why is it always 10 years?

Or maybe 12.

“The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate
change!”

- Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.



Based on previous predictions, it\'s way too late to Save The Planet.
So let\'s enjoy the wreckage.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 8:28:47 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

He tells us that we only have 10 years to decarbonize, or the planet
is hopelessly ruined. Why is it always 10 years?

It\'s the right order of magnitude; ten months is too short, a century is too long,
so...

We needn\'t quibble about minor stuff unless we can do something usefully
more accurate.

 

[server]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:27:04 -0800, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 13:59:53 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 11. december 2020 kl. 22.04.46 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 20:20:33 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 07:01:12 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:52:34 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not something that\'s 25 years off, now it\'s on a 5- year schedule.

Scheduled to be operational by 2025, the first phase of the Advanced Clean
Energy Storage project will provide 150,000 MWh of renewable power storage capacity, nearly 150 times the current U.S. installed lithium-ion battery storage base, according to Mitsubishi Power

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/01/how-salt-caverns-may-trigger-11-trillion-hydrogen-energy-boom-.html

U.S. DOE is already making plans for the infrastructural development needed to support distribution of this energy source. Fuel cells are far enough along for them to start getting ready.

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced $33 million in funding to support innovative hydrogen and fuel cell research and development (R&D), infrastructure supply chain development and validation, and cost analysis activities. This funding opportunity announcement (FOA) builds upon existing efforts funded by DOE\'s Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office to reduce cost, improve performance, and strengthen a domestic supply chain for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies and applications.
“California curtailed between 150,000-300,000 MWh of excess renewable
energy per month through the spring of 2020, yet saw its first rolling
blackouts in August because the grid was short on energy,”

That\'s what happens when you let politicians, especially elite
airheads like Newsom, control energy policy. Or control anything.

What are you going to do if you can\'t store the excess? That\'s what this program is all about.

In a cold climate, use electricity to heat water and use hot water
later on as needed. In a hot climate, cool water so that heat from
air conditioning can easily be dumped into it. Even better, use excess
electricity to make ice, You can dump quite a lot heat to melt this
ice.

A district heating & district cooling network is handy and you can
have huge centralized underground water reservoirs.
I spent some time in Moscow, on building automation. They had an
unmetered municipal hot-water system. When somewhere got too hot in
the winter, people just opened the windows.

class-A

here everyone who can get it has district heating, because it is the cheapest
powerplants, garbage incenerators, cement factories, even crematories adds heat to their local district
I think Apples big data center also does.

Nice in winter, but where does the heat go in summer?

Use absorbtion heat pumps and district cooling networks.

when the local coal powered powerplant runs the right mix of electricity and heat generation
it has an efficiency of over 90%

To achieve 90 % efficiency with CHP plants, you must have just the
right kind of load mix, e.g. 35 % power and 55 % heat, which is
seldom the case due to air temperature variations during the day and
week.

One problem with CHP plants and district heating is that the network
outgoing water must be quite warm (about 100-120 C) to compensate for
losses and old radiators require quite high water temperatures.

This also means that the water returning to the power plant is quite
warm (about 50 C), which is too high to cool the steam exiting the low
pressure turbine and condensing it to water and create a near vacuum.

For best Carnot efficiency, the hot side must be as hot as possible
and the cold side as cool as possible (measured in Kelvins). For this
reason, sometimes part of the district heat return water is routed
through pipes under the sidewalk to keep them snow and ice free .
Thus very cold water is available in the turbine condenser to reduce
the back pressure after the turbine. To make sense, the price obtained
from electricity must be much higher than that obtained from heat.