Alternator Output Drops Above 45 C After 75 km

[default]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 19:41:38 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:

"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:kp86nc9htovkcj3ubh1ige22dt5bhd77di@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:45:27 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:k401nc5c4n20p4epijn5oejvv65n508575@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.


Bret Cahill

99% of the time alternator problems are caused by brushes. First
suspect with any vehicle that has 50K+ miles on it. (although some new
alternators don't have brushes... and some go for 200K before they
wear enough)

Slip ring brushes last a lot longer on field rotor alternators - I've only
seen them on motorcycles, but the latest thing is interleaved poles only
rotor coupled to the field assembly via a coaxial pole arrangement. No
brushes at all.

If it is an older high-mileage vehicle it probably still has brushes.
My 91 Dodge Pickup does...

Town I lived in some years ago had this place that specialized in
alternator repairs. I'd hear people at work talking about their car
problems and mention the alternator place. If they are to be believed
rotors frequently require "rewinding," a $300 service. (in the 80's)

I later fixed a friend's car that he'd gotten an estimate for a "bad
rotor," and only had to replace the brushes.

Assuming you catch it before they break up and rip up the commutator.

Almost a frequent occurrence in power tools.

I wonder. Worn brushes tend to arc and that may be causing subsequent
failures.

The East Orange Edison lab had one of those old DC generators that
I've only seen in books. (with the tall field pieces) It had brushes
consisting of lots of strands of relatively fine wire. I wonder how
well that worked.

 

[default]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 16:34:58 -0500, Tim Wescott
<seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Y'know, the cool thing about experienced mechanics is that they see these
things ALL THE TIME, and while they may not have the foggiest notion of
the theory behind the problems, and they may even be dead wrong about the
"why" part of it, they usually have a pretty damned good idea of what
parts to fix/change/bang on to make the problem go away.

So why ask on an electronics group?

Because he just may have that sort of mechanic. I had one tell me
that all my spark plug wires must be bad since the plugs were badly
carboned up. "You have to have FIRE to burn gas," was his summation.

Symptoms I brought it in with, were soot in the tail pipe, a different
exhaust odor, and very bad gas mileage. Now, any bozo who's ever
worked on engines would know to suspect the automatic choke from
opening - but this being a fuel injected engine, it has no choke.

The real problem was the O2 sensor (part of the mixture feedback loop)
If the O2 sensor fails, the computer modulates the injectors based on
throttle opening and makes the engine run rich until it can be
repaired. (the check engine light didn't come on, but the error
codes, once I figured out how to access them, told me what was wrong)
I took it to my regular garage and told them to just change the
sensor, which fixed it.

AFAIK generators have been failing at hot since well before there were
any semiconductors in the loop -- maybe it's just some grotty old
electromechanical problem, like the heat making the brushes get slack on
the slip rings, or something equally mundane.

 

[Ian Field]

"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:kto8nctnsvdls6u3fn5siebibbft9gq7an@4ax.com...

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 19:41:38 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:kp86nc9htovkcj3ubh1ige22dt5bhd77di@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:45:27 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:k401nc5c4n20p4epijn5oejvv65n508575@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible
_without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There
must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.


Bret Cahill

99% of the time alternator problems are caused by brushes. First
suspect with any vehicle that has 50K+ miles on it. (although some new
alternators don't have brushes... and some go for 200K before they
wear enough)

Slip ring brushes last a lot longer on field rotor alternators - I've
only
seen them on motorcycles, but the latest thing is interleaved poles only
rotor coupled to the field assembly via a coaxial pole arrangement. No
brushes at all.

If it is an older high-mileage vehicle it probably still has brushes.
My 91 Dodge Pickup does...

Town I lived in some years ago had this place that specialized in
alternator repairs. I'd hear people at work talking about their car
problems and mention the alternator place. If they are to be believed
rotors frequently require "rewinding," a $300 service. (in the 80's)

I later fixed a friend's car that he'd gotten an estimate for a "bad
rotor," and only had to replace the brushes.

Assuming you catch it before they break up and rip up the commutator.

Almost a frequent occurrence in power tools.

I wonder. Worn brushes tend to arc and that may be causing subsequent
failures.

You can stick the rotor shaft in a chuck and smooth down arc damage with a
strip of fine abrasive paper - rebuilding a ripped up commutator is rather
more expensive.

 

[rickman]

default wrote on 7/23/2017 5:01 AM:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 19:41:38 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:kp86nc9htovkcj3ubh1ige22dt5bhd77di@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:45:27 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:k401nc5c4n20p4epijn5oejvv65n508575@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.


Bret Cahill

99% of the time alternator problems are caused by brushes. First
suspect with any vehicle that has 50K+ miles on it. (although some new
alternators don't have brushes... and some go for 200K before they
wear enough)

Slip ring brushes last a lot longer on field rotor alternators - I've only
seen them on motorcycles, but the latest thing is interleaved poles only
rotor coupled to the field assembly via a coaxial pole arrangement. No
brushes at all.

If it is an older high-mileage vehicle it probably still has brushes.
My 91 Dodge Pickup does...

Town I lived in some years ago had this place that specialized in
alternator repairs. I'd hear people at work talking about their car
problems and mention the alternator place. If they are to be believed
rotors frequently require "rewinding," a $300 service. (in the 80's)

I later fixed a friend's car that he'd gotten an estimate for a "bad
rotor," and only had to replace the brushes.

Assuming you catch it before they break up and rip up the commutator.

Almost a frequent occurrence in power tools.

I wonder. Worn brushes tend to arc and that may be causing subsequent
failures.

The East Orange Edison lab had one of those old DC generators that
I've only seen in books. (with the tall field pieces) It had brushes
consisting of lots of strands of relatively fine wire. I wonder how
well that worked.

You mean the brushes were actually "brushes"? Who would have suspected?

--

Rick C

 

[rickman]

Tim Wescott wrote on 7/22/2017 5:34 PM:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Y'know, the cool thing about experienced mechanics is that they see these
things ALL THE TIME, and while they may not have the foggiest notion of
the theory behind the problems, and they may even be dead wrong about the
"why" part of it, they usually have a pretty damned good idea of what
parts to fix/change/bang on to make the problem go away.

So why ask on an electronics group?

AFAIK generators have been failing at hot since well before there were
any semiconductors in the loop -- maybe it's just some grotty old
electromechanical problem, like the heat making the brushes get slack on
the slip rings, or something equally mundane.

If you bothered to read the thread you would have known the problem he has
(unless he is totally misreporting the symptoms) is definitely *not* the
alternator or any other part of the electrical system.

I think you jumped in over your head on this one.

--

Rick C

 

[rickman]

rickman wrote on 7/24/2017 2:01 AM:

Tim Wescott wrote on 7/22/2017 5:34 PM:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700, Bret Cahill wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Y'know, the cool thing about experienced mechanics is that they see these
things ALL THE TIME, and while they may not have the foggiest notion of
the theory behind the problems, and they may even be dead wrong about the
"why" part of it, they usually have a pretty damned good idea of what
parts to fix/change/bang on to make the problem go away.

So why ask on an electronics group?

AFAIK generators have been failing at hot since well before there were
any semiconductors in the loop -- maybe it's just some grotty old
electromechanical problem, like the heat making the brushes get slack on
the slip rings, or something equally mundane.

If you bothered to read the thread you would have known the problem he has
(unless he is totally misreporting the symptoms) is definitely *not* the
alternator or any other part of the electrical system.

I should have said "the charging system". It's late...

--

Rick C

 

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 9:15:18 AM UTC-7, Bret Cahill wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.


Bret Cahill

What kind of vehicle is it, and what year?

On a '96 Toyota Camry I would stall when at a stop sign or red light, usually in 30+C weather. I finally figured out it was a bad coolant temperature sensor. I replaced that, and had no more stalls. The car had better fuel economy afterwards too.

Michael

 

[default]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 01:57:58 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

default wrote on 7/23/2017 5:01 AM:
On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 19:41:38 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:kp86nc9htovkcj3ubh1ige22dt5bhd77di@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 21:45:27 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com> wrote:



"default" <default@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:k401nc5c4n20p4epijn5oejvv65n508575@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without
lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must
be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really
sensitive to even small changes in temps.


Bret Cahill

99% of the time alternator problems are caused by brushes. First
suspect with any vehicle that has 50K+ miles on it. (although some new
alternators don't have brushes... and some go for 200K before they
wear enough)

Slip ring brushes last a lot longer on field rotor alternators - I've only
seen them on motorcycles, but the latest thing is interleaved poles only
rotor coupled to the field assembly via a coaxial pole arrangement. No
brushes at all.

If it is an older high-mileage vehicle it probably still has brushes.
My 91 Dodge Pickup does...

Town I lived in some years ago had this place that specialized in
alternator repairs. I'd hear people at work talking about their car
problems and mention the alternator place. If they are to be believed
rotors frequently require "rewinding," a $300 service. (in the 80's)

I later fixed a friend's car that he'd gotten an estimate for a "bad
rotor," and only had to replace the brushes.

Assuming you catch it before they break up and rip up the commutator.

Almost a frequent occurrence in power tools.

I wonder. Worn brushes tend to arc and that may be causing subsequent
failures.

The East Orange Edison lab had one of those old DC generators that
I've only seen in books. (with the tall field pieces) It had brushes
consisting of lots of strands of relatively fine wire. I wonder how
well that worked.

You mean the brushes were actually "brushes"? Who would have suspected?

That's how they got the name I suppose. Toy motors (when I was
growing up) used a single piece of what looked like phosphor-bronze
leaf springs resting on the commutators.

The East Orange Edison thingies where a jumbled mass of fine wires
held in a clamp. I would have expected to see them all dressed in the
same direction - but no, they went every which way. I don't know if
that was how it operated or maybe the curators didn't have a clue as
to how it was supposed to go.

The generator was just sitting on the floor, there was nothing like a
steam engine to turn it nearby; it was just a display item.

 

[Bret Cahill]

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.


Bret Cahill

 

[rickman]

Bret Cahill wrote on 8/9/2017 2:41 PM:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

--

Rick C

 

[Bret Cahill]

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

 

[rickman]

Bret Cahill wrote on 8/10/2017 12:45 AM:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.

I would stop focusing on the symptoms. You need more information. I'm not
sure what the 12.5 volt thing is about. What does that mean, "12.5 volt"?

I guess you are saying you have a reluctor and no points. I don't really
know anything about them except when they first came out I read there was
still an adjustment of some sort, likely just timing which doesn't need to
be checked more than once when it is installed. I'd say find a book that
tells you if that needs an adjustment.

I'd say the misfiring rules out an open in the coil or resistor. That
should either work or the engine will just quit, no misfiring.

Did you ever say what vehicle this is? That might help.

--

Rick C

 

[default]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 21:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<bretcahill@aol.com> wrote:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

Your troubleshooting approach is called "Easter Egging." It is not
logical (or minimally logical) expensive, and time consuming.

Just think about the problem; there are always several things that can
cause those symptoms. Find one possible cause that ties ALL the
symptoms together.

What do the plugs look like - that will tell you if you have a problem
with mixture. An engine needs air/fuel in the right proportions,
compression, and a source of ignition at the right time. Any of those
things being off will cause problems.

Sooty plugs = too rich, check the choke a stuck choke or partially
stuck one will cause those exact symptoms...

Keep an open mind, you are "fixating," and that only hurts you.

Check the vacuum - burnt valve(s) will cause that problem and will
cause the vacuum to jump around instead of hold steady.

What happened coincident with the problem? Get a tune-up and the
problem started? (for instance) suspect something in the way the tune
up was done. Did it gradually occur over time? Is it better or worse
with humidity? etc., etc..

Learn to think analytically. It ain't rocket science, it is just auto
mechanics and the guys that fix that stuff are called "grease
monkeys."

 

[Bret Cahill]

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

Your troubleshooting approach is called "Easter Egging." It is not
logical (or minimally logical) expensive, and time consuming.

Just think about the problem; there are always several things that can
cause those symptoms. Find one possible cause that ties ALL the
symptoms together.

What do the plugs look like - that will tell you if you have a problem
with mixture. An engine needs air/fuel in the right proportions,
compression, and a source of ignition at the right time. Any of those
things being off will cause problems.

Sooty plugs = too rich, check the choke a stuck choke or partially
stuck one will cause those exact symptoms...

Keep an open mind, you are "fixating," and that only hurts you.

Check the vacuum - burnt valve(s) will cause that problem and will
cause the vacuum to jump around instead of hold steady.

What happened coincident with the problem? Get a tune-up and the
problem started? (for instance) suspect something in the way the tune
up was done. Did it gradually occur over time? Is it better or worse
with humidity? etc., etc..

Learn to think analytically. It ain't rocket science, it is just auto
mechanics and the guys that fix that stuff are called "grease
monkeys."

For a long time I would not risk even one cent until I was 100% sure of the issue.

The problem seems to have disappeared with the new $7 ignition module. No problems in the heat, at least not on shorter trips. I might not know about longer trips until next June.


Bret Cahill

 

[rickman]

Bret Cahill wrote on 8/30/2017 1:18 PM:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

Your troubleshooting approach is called "Easter Egging." It is not
logical (or minimally logical) expensive, and time consuming.

Just think about the problem; there are always several things that can
cause those symptoms. Find one possible cause that ties ALL the
symptoms together.

What do the plugs look like - that will tell you if you have a problem
with mixture. An engine needs air/fuel in the right proportions,
compression, and a source of ignition at the right time. Any of those
things being off will cause problems.

Sooty plugs = too rich, check the choke a stuck choke or partially
stuck one will cause those exact symptoms...

Keep an open mind, you are "fixating," and that only hurts you.

Check the vacuum - burnt valve(s) will cause that problem and will
cause the vacuum to jump around instead of hold steady.

What happened coincident with the problem? Get a tune-up and the
problem started? (for instance) suspect something in the way the tune
up was done. Did it gradually occur over time? Is it better or worse
with humidity? etc., etc..

Learn to think analytically. It ain't rocket science, it is just auto
mechanics and the guys that fix that stuff are called "grease
monkeys."

For a long time I would not risk even one cent until I was 100% sure of the issue.

The problem seems to have disappeared with the new $7 ignition module. No problems in the heat, at least not on shorter trips. I might not know about longer trips until next June.

I'm impressed that you could fix an alternator problem with an ignition module.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Bret Cahill]

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

Your troubleshooting approach is called "Easter Egging." It is not
logical (or minimally logical) expensive, and time consuming.

Just think about the problem; there are always several things that can
cause those symptoms. Find one possible cause that ties ALL the
symptoms together.

What do the plugs look like - that will tell you if you have a problem
with mixture. An engine needs air/fuel in the right proportions,
compression, and a source of ignition at the right time. Any of those
things being off will cause problems.

Sooty plugs = too rich, check the choke a stuck choke or partially
stuck one will cause those exact symptoms...

Keep an open mind, you are "fixating," and that only hurts you.

Check the vacuum - burnt valve(s) will cause that problem and will
cause the vacuum to jump around instead of hold steady.

What happened coincident with the problem? Get a tune-up and the
problem started? (for instance) suspect something in the way the tune
up was done. Did it gradually occur over time? Is it better or worse
with humidity? etc., etc..

Learn to think analytically. It ain't rocket science, it is just auto
mechanics and the guys that fix that stuff are called "grease
monkeys."

For a long time I would not risk even one cent until I was 100% sure of the issue.

The problem seems to have disappeared with the new $7 ignition module. No problems in the heat, at least not on shorter trips. I might not know about longer trips until next June.

I'm impressed that you could fix an alternator problem with an ignition module.

Without taking it to Russia where they have an autoclave track there is no way to know for sure until next June.

 

[rickman]

Bret Cahill wrote on 8/31/2017 2:13 PM:

After 50 - 75 km driving the ignition system starts to fail.

Pull over and wait 2 minutes and then another 50 km is possible _without lights_.

It's hard to imagine anything cooling off in just 2 minutes. There must be some thresh hold where the rectifier or voltage regulator is really sensitive to even small changes in temps.

Took a long hot ride w/ a good multimeter and the voltage of the lighter with lights, etc. off is 13.5 v and any misfiring was very hard to detect.

With everything on the engine is misfiring so bad it will hardly run but the voltage never drops below 12.5 v.

I'll try a new ignition control module because,

1. it's small and probably cools down faster than anything else that could be suspect.

2. it's cheap, and,

3. it takes 5 minutes to replace.

I'll report back in a few weeks.

Ok, there are two questions answered after some weeks.

1) The voltage is not dropping (but then we knew that as the headlights
never dimmed).

2) The engine doesn't have to quit, it first starts to misfire.

Still not enough info to really pinpoint a problem. Is this vehicle old
enough to have points? I think you said it has a distributor. It could
have points or a "reluctor" which is a hall effect switch and a pointed cam
on the rotor. If points, did you check the dwell? If a reluctor, try
checking whatever adustment that has.

Any adjustment of the reluctor is not obvious. The coil in the distributor looks old but it looks old when it's cool out and working as well.

The problem is a 3 legged stool, heat + 75 km + 12.5 volt => bad ignition.

Remove any leg and there is no problem.


Bret Cahill

Your troubleshooting approach is called "Easter Egging." It is not
logical (or minimally logical) expensive, and time consuming.

Just think about the problem; there are always several things that can
cause those symptoms. Find one possible cause that ties ALL the
symptoms together.

What do the plugs look like - that will tell you if you have a problem
with mixture. An engine needs air/fuel in the right proportions,
compression, and a source of ignition at the right time. Any of those
things being off will cause problems.

Sooty plugs = too rich, check the choke a stuck choke or partially
stuck one will cause those exact symptoms...

Keep an open mind, you are "fixating," and that only hurts you.

Check the vacuum - burnt valve(s) will cause that problem and will
cause the vacuum to jump around instead of hold steady.

What happened coincident with the problem? Get a tune-up and the
problem started? (for instance) suspect something in the way the tune
up was done. Did it gradually occur over time? Is it better or worse
with humidity? etc., etc..

Learn to think analytically. It ain't rocket science, it is just auto
mechanics and the guys that fix that stuff are called "grease
monkeys."

For a long time I would not risk even one cent until I was 100% sure of the issue.

The problem seems to have disappeared with the new $7 ignition module. No problems in the heat, at least not on shorter trips. I might not know about longer trips until next June.

I'm impressed that you could fix an alternator problem with an ignition module.

Without taking it to Russia where they have an autoclave track there is no way to know for sure until next June.

Maybe I should have included the smiley

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998