A european question : RoHS

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Joerg wrote:

This RoHS business is certainly going to snuff out a lot of small
enterprises over there. The big companies are unlikely to take over many
of the laid off employees because they are largely outsourced.

Considering that many countries in Europe are seeing unemployment rates
above 10% I am puzzled about how that law ever passed. It seems small
biz didn't establish enough of a lobby.

I'm a small company and don't see real problems.
I just tell my pcb assembler to use lead free
technology, pay a bit more and am done with.
Yes, I do have a stack of spare parts for prototypes,
leadfree or not, I'm just going to use them anyway.
They are few compared to a series.
Whether I'll be soldering prototypes with or without
lead it to be seen.

Remember, this RoHS was invented to keep the
competition out(beside the environmental thought),
so it must be good.

It is the small ones that grow and the big ones that
vanish. While the bigger companies can indeed have
hundreds of millions in the negative every year, the
smaller ones act much quicker, have to.

Rene

 

[Joerg]

Hello John,

I wonder how the directive applies to PC motherboards. Practically
every motherboard has an ethernet interface onboard. Voila -> network
gear.

(Only just noticed this bit from Frank... Our stuff usually has an
RS485 port, does that count?)

If that were so, I guess we'll soon see razors, electric toothbrushes
and all sorts of stuff with "network capabilities" ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello John,

... But we do have stocks of semiconductors in
particular that we would have liked to keep using, for however long
they last. ...

Maybe you could use them up in gear that is shipped to non-RoHS regions.
But you would have to create two different assembly numbers and so on
which can be a pain.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello Rene,

I'm a small company and don't see real problems.
I just tell my pcb assembler to use lead free
technology, pay a bit more and am done with.

If you use contract mfg, maybe even in Asia, you probably aren't a
really small company. The problems will come for those with highly
specialized products in low volumes.

Remember, this RoHS was invented to keep the
competition out(beside the environmental thought),
so it must be good.

That's not a good thing. It will lead to a smaller number of product
offerings and higher prices for Europeans, while the rest of the world
(and companies there, too) will enjoy lower pricing. Protectionism has
never really worked in the long run.

It is the small ones that grow and the big ones that
vanish. While the bigger companies can indeed have
hundreds of millions in the negative every year, the
smaller ones act much quicker, have to.

I see a different trend, at least for medical electronics. Small
companies are gobbled up by big ones at a regular pace. Same for
consumer electronics where companies like Sony and Panasonic rule. They
don't have millions in the red...

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Joerg wrote:

Hello Rene,

I'm a small company and don't see real problems.
I just tell my pcb assembler to use lead free
technology, pay a bit more and am done with.

The problems will come for those with highly
specialized products in low volumes.

That is exactly what I did. The market broke down
more than a year ago. Those outsourcing for lack
of capacity now do it themselves with the staff
on the payroll. Those how outsourced for lack of
knowledge give now their staff on the payroll the
chance to learn how to do it. Now I'm moving to
something else.

Remember, this RoHS was invented to keep the
competition out(beside the environmental thought),
so it must be good.

That's not a good thing. It will lead to a smaller number of product
offerings and higher prices for Europeans, while the rest of the world
(and companies there, too) will enjoy lower pricing. Protectionism has
never really worked in the long run.

It sure doesn't work, especially since the Japanese have
solved the lead problem 10 years ago and silently deliver
lead free.

It is the small ones that grow and the big ones that
vanish. While the bigger companies can indeed have
hundreds of millions in the negative every year, the
smaller ones act much quicker, have to.

I see a different trend, at least for medical electronics. Small
companies are gobbled up by big ones at a regular pace. Same for
consumer electronics where companies like Sony and Panasonic rule. They
don't have millions in the red...

Those who have to have public shares are not
to be helped. A silly thing for small companies
anyway.

Rene

 

[Joerg]

Hello Rene,

... Now I'm moving to something else.

If you don't mind my asking, what would that be?

It sure doesn't work, especially since the Japanese have
solved the lead problem 10 years ago and silently deliver
lead free.

Many Asian contract mfg places have silently done that, too. Every time
I asked I was told "no problem, as long as all the parts you design in
are available sans lead". I bet that most European politicians don't
know that. So when they realize that some of their high-tech folks start
to drive taxi cabs or file for unemployment this RoHS could turn into
another one of their "oh s--t" experiences.

Those who have to have public shares are not
to be helped. A silly thing for small companies
anyway.

In big politics your success is pretty much a function of your pile of
money and thus lobbying power.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[John Devereux]

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

Hello John,

... But we do have stocks of semiconductors in
particular that we would have liked to keep using, for however long
they last. ...

Maybe you could use them up in gear that is shipped to non-RoHS
regions. But you would have to create two different assembly numbers
and so on which can be a pain.

Provided we can mix with lead free parts. Otherwise we would need to
keep buying non-lead-free too, and it will never end...


--

John Devereux

 

[Joerg]

Hello John,

Maybe you could use them up in gear that is shipped to non-RoHS
regions. But you would have to create two different assembly numbers
and so on which can be a pain.

Provided we can mix with lead free parts. Otherwise we would need to
keep buying non-lead-free too, and it will never end...

That would require a talk with your contract mfg. However, lead free
parts have been on the market for quite a while so it shouldn't be a big
issue. Slide 28 of this IPC presentation kind of corroborates that:

http://www.dmsms2005.utcdayton.com/media/proceedings2005/cth_0920_Abrams.pdf

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Devereux wrote...

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

However, lead free parts have been on the market for quite a while
so it shouldn't be a big issue. Slide 28 of this IPC presentation
kind of corroborates that:

http://www.dmsms2005.utcdayton.com/media/proceedings2005/cth_0920_Abrams.pdf

Joerg, thanks for that.

Slide 28, which says that Tin Whiskers are a big problem that
needs addressing?

Or the next few slides detailing severe problems occurring with
a small amount of lead contamination in lead-free soldering?

Or pointing out the 30 degree-C higher soldering temperatures?

Or is that page 28 (slide 35), back to the Tin Whiskers problem?

Yes, thanks for that, very reassuring...


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[John Devereux]

Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> writes:

John Devereux wrote...

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

However, lead free parts have been on the market for quite a while
so it shouldn't be a big issue. Slide 28 of this IPC presentation
kind of corroborates that:

http://www.dmsms2005.utcdayton.com/media/proceedings2005/cth_0920_Abrams.pdf

Joerg, thanks for that.

Slide 28, which says that Tin Whiskers are a big problem that
needs addressing?

Well I didn't say that I was totally happy with the situation!

It is a worry. I am not sure what to do about it. If it really is a
big problem, I wonder how Japan has mamanaged to "change over 10 years
ago"? I guess I was hoping that the incidence would be rare enough
that we would not see it with our small quantities. I.e., if it is
frequent enough for *us* to ever see it, it would be an impossible
situation for the people that make millions of units. Then again,
perhaps it takes more than the typical 1-year warranty period for the
whiskers to grow.

Or the next few slides detailing severe problems occurring with
a small amount of lead contamination in lead-free soldering?

Or pointing out the 30 degree-C higher soldering temperatures?

For us, these will only be a worry if and when we do "switch over" to
completely lead-free. By which time hopefully such issues will be
either sorted out.(?)

Or is that page 28 (slide 35), back to the Tin Whiskers problem?

Yes, thanks for that, very reassuring...

I see we have our sarcastic head on this morning!


--

John Devereux

 

[Joerg]

Hello John,

Or is that page 28 (slide 35), back to the Tin Whiskers problem?

Yes, thanks for that, very reassuring...

I see we have our sarcastic head on this morning!

For some reason my server seems to have dropped many posts this morning
so I can't see who wrote the one before you (Win?).

FWIW, I meant "slide 28" and not the PDF page 28. Look on the number on
the slide, not what Adobe Acrobat says. Slide 28 is on PDF page 21.
Anyway, at least it's a comment by a heavyweight (IPC) regarding mixed
assemblies.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Pooh Bear]

Winfield Hill wrote:

John Devereux wrote...

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:

However, lead free parts have been on the market for quite a while
so it shouldn't be a big issue. Slide 28 of this IPC presentation
kind of corroborates that:

http://www.dmsms2005.utcdayton.com/media/proceedings2005/cth_0920_Abrams.pdf

Joerg, thanks for that.

Slide 28, which says that Tin Whiskers are a big problem that
needs addressing?

Or the next few slides detailing severe problems occurring with
a small amount of lead contamination in lead-free soldering?

Or pointing out the 30 degree-C higher soldering temperatures?

Or is that page 28 (slide 35), back to the Tin Whiskers problem?

Yes, thanks for that, very reassuring...

From http://uk.farnell.com/images/en/ede/pdf/PKG153.pdf

Lead-free alloy soldering temperature is higher (30°C -
40°C), which can lead to a variety of defects such as:

Thermal fatigue of solder joints - not well understood,
research is on-going
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Tin-whiskers from electroplated tin termination
coatings - not fully understood, research is on-going
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Delamination of multi-layer PCBs

Damage to plated through holes - especially with
narrow holes in thicker laminate

PCB warping - can damage components, cause open
circuits, misalignment

IC packages are more susceptible to “pop-corn”
failure. The IPC/JEDEC-020B Moisture Sensitivity
Level for components with lead-free soldering can be
1 or 2 levels lower.

Damage to heat sensitive components
Check upper temperature limit in
manufacturers datasheet

Wetting
of most lead-free solders is inferior to tin/lead.

Just to *really* make your day.

Nice of them to research stuff after making it law !

Graham

 

[Paul Burke]

Pooh Bear wrote:

Nice of them to research stuff after making it law !

But it was all sorted out, 10 years ago, in Japan, wasn't it? How do
they overcome these problems? Or do they "cheat" there too? Is their
lead- free rule simply another anti- import protection of the kind they
have so much experience of, and which the EMC directive was meant to be
for Europe?

Paul Burke

 

[Joerg]

Hello Graham,

Nice of them to research stuff after making it law !

Nothing new in Europe. In Germany they started to make it nearly
impossible to hire people for those part-time flat-tax jobs, probably to
squeeze out more taxes. So the jobs simply vanished. Afterwards
unemployment really shot up. Duh. But we do that, too. In California
they absolutely had to have oxygenated gasoline. So they mixed MTBE into
it. This lowered the gas mileage by at least 10% (I get 25mpg on CA gas
and 28mpg on NV gas) but the whopper was the serious environmental
damage caused by seepage into ground water. Once it's there it's too late.

Asian manufacturers have figured out the lead-free assy scheme to a
large extent. But what surprises me is that the EU parliament or whoever
is responsible for these hip shot laws doesn't provide a hands-on "how
to" guide along with the law.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Richard Henry]

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ay%ne.1614$IE7.621@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

Hello Graham,

Nice of them to research stuff after making it law !

Nothing new in Europe. In Germany they started to make it nearly
impossible to hire people for those part-time flat-tax jobs, probably to
squeeze out more taxes. So the jobs simply vanished. Afterwards
unemployment really shot up. Duh. But we do that, too. In California
they absolutely had to have oxygenated gasoline. So they mixed MTBE into
it. This lowered the gas mileage by at least 10% (I get 25mpg on CA gas
and 28mpg on NV gas) but the whopper was the serious environmental
damage caused by seepage into ground water. Once it's there it's too late.

The way I heard it, the use of MTBE was a compromise so that Big Oil
wouldn't fight too hard. The purpose of the regulation was to get a minimum
level of oxygen into the components of gasoline to improve emissions by more
thorough burning of the fuel. Ethyl Alcohol was the originally-intended
oxygenator, which meant it would get political support from Big Corn states.
The oil producers showed they could get the same oxygen benefit from MTBE,
which was easy to make in the refineries, and cheaper than EthA. Of course,
if the ground water had ended up being contaminated with ethyl alcohol, few
would be complaining.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Richard,

What the regulators failed to recognize was that the pollution is to a
large extent coming from Diesel engines. School buses are the worst
around here, I keep a respectable distance before they step on it and a
plume of black soot spews out. In our neighborhood you can almost smell
when school is out.

Either someone couldn't design a proper engine or the fuel is bad.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Pooh Bear]

Paul Burke wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

Nice of them to research stuff after making it law !

But it was all sorted out, 10 years ago, in Japan, wasn't it? How do
they overcome these problems? Or do they "cheat" there too?

I've no idea how they do it since it's only recently that most major
component suppliers have been able to offer lead free terminations.

Many components are still not RoHS compliant and you can't even do *trial*
runs of lead free soldering on your product until all the components have
no lead on them !

Is their
lead- free rule simply another anti- import protection of the kind they
have so much experience of, and which the EMC directive was meant to be
for Europe?

Yeah - meant to be - quite. Damn bureacrats have no idea. The Chinese et al
will simply silkscreen CE on the product no probblem. That'll do. Much more
tricky to take them to task about it than local manufacturers.

It's just an added cost / overhead for Europeans.

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Hello Graham,

It's just an added cost / overhead for Europeans.

It will hit mostly medium and small biz in Europe. That is why I don't
understand why there wasn't more lobbying effort against it. I mean,
they are usually all members of the chamber of commerce.

If that stuff was pulled off here in the US the affected trade groups
would start hurling boulders, peppering their representatives with
letters and so on. Somehow I have the feeling the democratic process in
Europe isn't what it used to be or got lopsided and now leans towards
the bureaucrats.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:12:35 GMT, the renowned Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Graham,

It's just an added cost / overhead for Europeans.

It will hit mostly medium and small biz in Europe. That is why I don't
understand why there wasn't more lobbying effort against it. I mean,
they are usually all members of the chamber of commerce.

If that stuff was pulled off here in the US the affected trade groups
would start hurling boulders, peppering their representatives with
letters and so on. Somehow I have the feeling the democratic process in
Europe isn't what it used to be or got lopsided and now leans towards
the bureaucrats.

Aren't the people who advise on the technical aspects mostly engineers
on loan from large corporations anyhow?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Pooh Bear]

Joerg wrote:

Hello Graham,

It's just an added cost / overhead for Europeans.

It will hit mostly medium and small biz in Europe.

Yup.

That is why I don't
understand why there wasn't more lobbying effort against it. I mean,
they are usually all members of the chamber of commerce.

Over here the chambers of commerce are as out of touch typically as the
bureacrats.

If that stuff was pulled off here in the US the affected trade groups
would start hurling boulders, peppering their representatives with
letters and so on. Somehow I have the feeling the democratic process in
Europe isn't what it used to be or got lopsided and now leans towards
the bureaucrats.

Hence the NOs in the recent referendums.

Graham