9V rechargeable batteries and chargers?

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

ehsjr wrote:

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

Martin Riddle wrote:

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:9n9f58FnsnU1@mid.individual.net...
Martin Riddle wrote:
"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:9n8lo1Flq2U1@mid.individual.net...
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled
with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic
I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the
primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(
They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on
newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch
them
off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

Those are very fancy uC-controlled chargers specifically designed
for
NiMH. They cost north of $100 each.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point
for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive
it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

Yup, they need to find out the cell number and then count the number
of
delta-V events, plus time-out if they are too unequal. All not
rocket
science but sometimes when I see charger designs my impression is
that
for them a lot is like rocket science.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max
C/5)
plus timer.
That's a problem in a church as self-discharge in 9V NiMH is high.
You'd
have some batteries that are in there 1wk and other maybe 8wks.
Trying
to get a rotating scheme going is totally not feasible in such a
scenario.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ok, so try Li-Poly. 520mah!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627506-REG/iPower_IP9V520_9V_Li_Polymer_520mAh_Battery.html

4 pcs 500mah and charger...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/501664-REG/iPower_FC9VX44K_FC_9VX44_Fast_Smart_9V.html

They actually have a good track record from the reviews. BH Photo
carries good stuff.

Thanks. Yes, BH is a good place, we've bought from them before. But
LiPoly is only 7.4V nominal for the usual stack of two. That's a tad
marginal for our mikes.

Anyhow, we just ordered this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355041
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817355040

If they really hold the 300mAh minus 20% marketing glitz factor or
whatever we'd be really happy.

The other thing one has to keep in mind at non-techie places such as
churches is the occasional mishap. Like when someone sticks a LiPoly
battery or LiIon into a regular charger and *POOF*

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I'd like to see how those work out. After the not so good results from
the Tenergy batteries. ( I have the D's and AA's)
The Tenergy batteries suffer from self discharge from what I see. The
D's are working better than the AA's, but they are 9000mAh.

I'll try to remember to give feedback in a year or so, then we'd know
whether they really hold up. These batteries are not exactly cheap so
they have to withstand at least a few dozen cycles. I'll never believe
the 1000 cycle claims anyway, never seen one that truly did that, or
even close.

With the Tenergy 9V NiMH I am not all that enthused either which is one
reason for trying out another brand.

The Sanyo Eneloops turned out to be the best. It seems the higher
capacity NiMh cells have a higher self discharge rate, and rapidly loose
capacity. Which results in a short life.

Sanyo doesn't seem to make'em in 9V. Plus we really don't need low
self-discharge because they will be left on the charger at all times
except when in use. Capacity is all that matters to us.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Jim Thompson · Jan 13, 2012

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:11:29 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

Phil Hobbs · Jan 13, 2012

On 01/13/2012 11:11 AM, Joerg wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

It wound up costing us probably $150 per year, but the priest didn't
have a very strong voice, so failures were very noticeable.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/13/2012 11:11 AM, Joerg wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately
not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here
is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will
accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

It wound up costing us probably $150 per year, but the priest didn't
have a very strong voice, so failures were very noticeable.

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Jim Thompson · Jan 13, 2012

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:09:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

[snip]

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

ehsjr · Jan 13, 2012

Joerg wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/13/2012 11:11 AM, Joerg wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:

davew wrote:

On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately
not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here
is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will
accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

It wound up costing us probably $150 per year, but the priest didn't
have a very strong voice, so failures were very noticeable.

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

Even if money was no object, replacing the batteries after
each use is a hassle. Much better if they can just pick the
mic up from the charger and be ready to go. I wish I had
a reasonable answer for you. All I can come up with is that
it might end up worth the effort to modify all of the chargers,
as horrible as that sounds. And it does sound horrible. :-(

Ed

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

ehsjr wrote:

Joerg wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/13/2012 11:11 AM, Joerg wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:

davew wrote:

On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and
Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately
not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about
the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds
nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here
is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger
until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will
accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If
they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled
with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the
primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there.
Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that
mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some
mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much
juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very
modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk
or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or
announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

It wound up costing us probably $150 per year, but the priest didn't
have a very strong voice, so failures were very noticeable.

Oh, that must be a smaller church. We usually have at least three mikes
going throughout two services plus an education hour. Pastor, vicar,
pulpit mike, and sometimes a fourth for the DCE. Assuming two per mike
per Sunday that's worst case eight per Sunday, plus on special days, say
60 sets a year, that's 480 batteries. At $1.50 that would be $720.
Versus under $200 for the new Maha set which (hopefully) lasts us
through two years. So we'd save $1200 over that time. That buys a ton of
good food for the food closet which is always aching for more money
these days.

Even if money was no object, replacing the batteries after
each use is a hassle. Much better if they can just pick the
mic up from the charger and be ready to go. I wish I had
a reasonable answer for you. All I can come up with is that
it might end up worth the effort to modify all of the chargers,
as horrible as that sounds. And it does sound horrible. :-(

Unfortunately these mikes have no cradle chargers. One must swap 9V
batteries. However, Sennheiser has done a nice job in that you can swing
them open in a way that the battery sails into your cupped hand while
holding the new battery between thumb and index finger. Then plop in the
new one, old one back on the charge station -> done. I've done this
while crouched on the floor behind the choir so it won't disturb the
service. Luckily we have a side entrance right there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Jan 13, 2012

On Jan 12, 8:19 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:
"Joerg" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:9n8lo1Flq2U1@mid.individual.net...
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the
primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(
They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on
newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

Those are very fancy uC-controlled chargers specifically designed for
NiMH. They cost north of $100 each.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

Yup, they need to find out the cell number and then count the number
of
delta-V events, plus time-out if they are too unequal. All not rocket
science but sometimes when I see charger designs my impression is that
for them a lot is like rocket science.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

That's a problem in a church as self-discharge in 9V NiMH is high.
You'd
have some batteries that are in there 1wk and other maybe 8wks. Trying
to get a rotating scheme going is totally not feasible in such a
scenario.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Ok, so try Li-Poly. 520mah!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627506-REG/iPower_IP9V520_9V_Li....

4 pcs 500mah and charger...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/501664-REG/iPower_FC9VX44K_FC_9....

They actually have a good track record from the reviews. BH Photo
carries good stuff.

Thanks. Yes, BH is a good place, we've bought from them before. But
LiPoly is only 7.4V nominal for the usual stack of two. That's a tad
marginal for our mikes.

LiPoly: a few% to 100% = [3.6V .. 4.2V]

That's 8.4V fully charged for two cells in series; 50% (nominal) for a
two-stack would be 7.8V.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

David Eather · Jan 13, 2012

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can be
charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal in
the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v rock
steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

On Jan 12, 8:19 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Martin Riddle wrote:
"Joerg" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:9n8lo1Flq2U1@mid.individual.net...
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the
primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(
They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on
newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off
or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.
Those are very fancy uC-controlled chargers specifically designed for
NiMH. They cost north of $100 each.
On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging
when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not sensitive it
could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.
Yup, they need to find out the cell number and then count the number
of
delta-V events, plus time-out if they are too unequal. All not rocket
science but sometimes when I see charger designs my impression is that
for them a lot is like rocket science.
For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.
That's a problem in a church as self-discharge in 9V NiMH is high.
You'd
have some batteries that are in there 1wk and other maybe 8wks. Trying
to get a rotating scheme going is totally not feasible in such a
scenario.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ok, so try Li-Poly. 520mah!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627506-REG/iPower_IP9V520_9V_Li...
4 pcs 500mah and charger...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/501664-REG/iPower_FC9VX44K_FC_9...
They actually have a good track record from the reviews. BH Photo
carries good stuff.
Thanks. Yes, BH is a good place, we've bought from them before. But
LiPoly is only 7.4V nominal for the usual stack of two. That's a tad
marginal for our mikes.

LiPoly: a few% to 100% = [3.6V .. 4.2V]

That's 8.4V fully charged for two cells in series; 50% (nominal) for a
two-stack would be 7.8V.

That could just work. Not a whole lot of margin but maybe enough.
However, we have ordered the 300mAh NiMH batteries already. I had looked
at LiIon solutions but what scares me is that someone could unknowingly
stick this into a regular charger. Probably the same danger with LiPoly.

There is a protection circuit in there, usually, but all this typically
comes from China. And a guy in Germany has seen first hand what can
happen there. A thermistor in a battery pack was economized out of the
design and replaced with ... a 10k resistor.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

David Eather wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

They do not have charge terminals and there isn't really any space to
put charge terminals. These are pro-quality metal case units. Wireless
mikes also don't have surge currents. They typically draw a steady
50-60mA because it's FM transmission.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Jim Thompson · Jan 13, 2012

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:33:54 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

David Eather wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

[snip]

Joerg · Jan 13, 2012

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:33:54 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

David Eather wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.
Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

[snip]

That could be quite effective if it happened during a sermon on Sodom
and Gomorrah ;-)

Or a genuine fire and brimstone sermon

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz · Jan 14, 2012

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:54:03 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:33:54 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

David Eather wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.
Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

[snip]

That could be quite effective if it happened during a sermon on Sodom
and Gomorrah ;-)

Or a genuine fire and brimstone sermon

I didn't think the Lutherans were into hellfire and damnation.

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz · Jan 14, 2012

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:11:29 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

I buy AAs at Lowes for $.20 each. I know times are tough, but there has to be
at least a buck in the collection plate. ;-)

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Take it out and pitch it, no matter how long it might have been used.

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

So don't.

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

The display probably cost too much.

Joerg · Jan 14, 2012

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:11:29 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 01/12/2012 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
davew wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:36 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, Joerg<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Hi Folks,
At church we use several Ansmann Energy 16 chargers and Tenergy 9V
batteries. Long story short they've been good to us but lately not so
much. The charge indicators on the stations fade and it all seems
not to
be all that reliable anymore. Fairly new NiMH batteries peter out
in the
middle of a service and so on. No complaints, we got enough life
out of
this setup. So, looking for a new solution here. We have to stay
with 9V
because the (expensive) wireless mikes need these and I'd would
like to
move to 7-cell instead of 6-cell. Read some good reviews about the
Maha/Powerex brand:
http://www.amazon.com/PowerEx-MH-C490F-DCW-Worldwide-Battery-Charger/...

They also have low discharge 9V 230mAh batteries which sounds nice.
However, I am not familiar with this brand. Maybe someone here is? Or
knows of even better systems?
Must be fully automatic, meaning stick the batteries in there no
matter
what their remaining charge is and leave them in the charger until
next
Sunday.
9V batteries with two LiIon cells in there are, of course, the
ultimate
cat's meouw. But they seem not to be ready for prime time yet, I
could
not find multi-bay chargers and I am afraid someone will accidentally
stick them into a regular charger and .. KABLAM.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
What's your problem you can't refurbish the chargers? If they're not
fast charge, they're dirt simple fixed current sources on a timer.
Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
If you don't want sudden drop-outs, use conventional top brand
alkaline e.g. Duracell + or whatever they're called over there. Plus
you really should have some of these for back-up if it's that mission
critical. ...

We have them for backup but that gets expensive. Because some mikes are
rarely used but must be kept up. Then you remove a $1.50 battery and
must throw it out because the voltage won't tell you how much juice has
been taken out already.

... In my experience (in good quality radio mics) they last
plenty of time and fail a bit more slowly/gracefully than I would
expect a rechargeable to. Plus since your batteries will always be
reasonably new, you will get a good feel for how often you need to
replace them as part of a regular replacement schedule.

We had that in our earlier years. They would acutally last less than
NiMH and failure in the middle of service was just as bad.

What we used to do was to store the mics without batteries, and cram a
new one in every time it was used.

Then you must have a very rich church

I buy AAs at Lowes for $.20 each. I know times are tough, but there has to be
at least a buck in the collection plate. ;-)

How much do you pay for good quality 9V alkaline batteries? Duracell or
similar.

But seriously, then this kind of stuff happens: We open our church to
other groups, mostly for free and to commercial groups for a very modest
fee or donation. Then they use a mike and put it back. Battery still in
there. Now is that still good? Did they use it for a 10min pep talk or a
1-1/2h presentation? Did they turn off the mike during breaks or just
put it under the pulpit?

Take it out and pitch it, no matter how long it might have been used.

That is costly with 9V cells and also not very good environmental
stewardship. God gave us the earth and everything that's on it but he
did not put a spare into the trunk in case we screw up with this one.

Same for our own activities. Often a mike is used for just a few
minutes, for example during the children's message, or announcements, or
stage plays. In a church it is next to impossible to tally up all that
so you end up throwing away lots of good 9V alkalines to the tune of a
buck fifty each. We can't do that.

So don't.

Hence our need for a good NiMH and charger combination

Now if the mfg had been smart and included a wireless batt status
feedback to the audio booth this would be _much_ easier. But they
didn't. Hint to all wireless mike manufacturers: Do that!

The display probably cost too much.

Nope, and that is the sad part. The Sennheiser system already has a
fairly luxurious display, backlit, the whole nine yards. It shows the
frequency, the RF level and the audio level, so one alphanumeric string
and two horizontal bar graphs. It would have been a piece of cake to add
a battery alert but ... they didn't :-(

Even on the old Shure Marcad they could have done it. I mean, what's so
difficult about letting the diversity lights blink? Or let the red audio
overdrive LED blink. They are already there, costs nothing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg · Jan 14, 2012

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:54:03 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 15:33:54 -0800, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

David Eather wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(
They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.
Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

[snip]

That could be quite effective if it happened during a sermon on Sodom
and Gomorrah ;-)

Or a genuine fire and brimstone sermon

I didn't think the Lutherans were into hellfire and damnation.

True, but some of the sermons can be downright scary yet be an exact
replica of what the bible says.

Some of our family are Catholic. Once we had a longer chat over the
phone and they asked about the difference to us. "Well, for example, we
Lutherans do not believe in purgatory because it's not in the bible" ...
"Oh, ya well, they've long since discontinued that!"

I was almost laughing myself off the chair

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

David Eather · Jan 14, 2012

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:33:54 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

David Eather wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:13:30 +1000, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

ehsjr wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:36:31 -0800, Joerg wrote:

Not these. They are crammed with electronics, all uC controlled with
battery diagnostics and the whole enchilada. If I had a schematic I
could repair them. And I did repair one where somthing in the
primary
switcher had blown. But those things don't seem to last and there
comes
a point where repairing gets old. Also, it is absolutely no fun to
find
out Sunday morning at 7:30am that all the batteries are dead and
worship
service begins shortly. This happened three days ago :-(

They might be old NiCd chargers that fail to spot the Delta V on
newer
NiMh cells, so that they keep charging forever until you switch them
off or the safety timer, if any, turns them off.

On 9V cells charge is trickier because you have one Delta V point for
cell, which means that if the charger is sensitive it may stop
charging when the first cell reaches the charge, and if it's not
sensitive it could overcharge the battery, frying it in the long
time.

For 9V batteries I'd always go with a current limiter (C/10, max C/5)
plus timer.

Don't know about 9V batteries, but for 6 cells NiCd or NiMh I've
had great success with C/10 then taper to ~C/40 when Vset is
reached. I tried some 9V rechargeables way back when and gave
up on them. Maybe they're better these days?

Nowadays all chargers are, unfortunately, fast chargers. Because fast
sells. I wish there was a li'l switch that allowed slow charge which
would be perfectly fine in places such as churches. But there usually
isn't :-(

A though if you have time for the extra work:
2 x 10440 lithiums can be packed in the same space as a 9v. Use one of
those regulated (microchip make them) capacitor voltage doublers +90%
efficiency (plus a bug cap for output surge current), a diode so it can
be charged through the "normal" terminals and a 2.5mm recharge terminal
in the base (plus build your own lithium recharger) and your done - 9v
rock steady 350 - 400 ma hours.

I can already see the headlines "Pastor's trousers caught fire"

They do not have charge terminals and there isn't really any space to
put charge terminals. These are pro-quality metal case units. Wireless
mikes also don't have surge currents. They typically draw a steady
50-60mA because it's FM transmission.

You don't prefer the headline - 'Pastors preaching set the church on fire'?

I understand the objections. I would say that if you use 2 x 10440
batteries you have about 7 mm for some sort of socket.
Thanks that you worked around the typos 'bug' for 'big' and 'a diode so it
can be charged through' for 'a diode so it can't
be charged through'

9V rechargeable batteries and chargers?

Joerg

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