4046 PLL question

Andy · Aug 2, 2005

Andy writes:

Sorry, Jim, I just found the patent reference....... I remembered
that I had referred to Laune's patent in the
patent search I provided for my quad D patent.....so I looked up mine
and got
the following numbers from it..... :

Laune patent # 3714663 Jan 1973

I couldn't read the text cause my laptop doesn't have the plugin for
it. Full text
isn't on the gov pat server until 1976..

You might want to read it to see if you should've gotten credit for it
(grin)....
If this is truly yours, ....... thanks for making my life a lot
easier.....

Andy Sharpe (
aka Claude Andrew Sharpe)

Tim Wescott · Aug 2, 2005

Andy wrote:

Andy responds to Tim:

I would prefer separate outputs for the phase detector Pump up and
pump down, (which I could tie
together if desired ). And a pin for a lock detector, rudimentary
tho it would
have to be......

I Andy Sharpe, retired, PE,
etc........

Hmm. But now you're up to 8 pins, and those packages take a jump in size.

Good point, though, and it sounds like you've done this a lot more than me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Jim Thompson · Aug 2, 2005

On 2 Aug 2005 11:02:37 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

I remember seeing his name on the patent, and I think it was for the
MC4044.
I just went to the uspto.gov site, but they only go back to 1976, so I
can't
verify it just now.....
I definitely saw his name on the Motorola app notes for the 4044 , way
back in
the early 70's . ( Funny, the stuff that sticks in your mind
(grin) )

Ron Treadway holds the patent for the digital portion of the MC4044...
the so-called 9-gate-wonder. I did the analog stuff.

Jon deLaune was in applications if you saw his name on an app note of
that era.

Whoever did it, the 4044 was a fine piece of work that was a major
breakthrough
in the development of frequency control...
I was designing frequency synthesizers at the time for Bendix
Avionics, then later
for Texas Instruments. I used the 4044 in a dozen products, then I
started building
my own with two D's and a reset gate ( same 4044 circuit using D's
instead of
individual gates --- gave me better control over the dead zone).....
Later I expanded it into a quad of D's which gave slightly better pump
action when the frequencies
were widely separated ( Principles of Three State Phase Detection -
EDN- Sharpe ).

I remember that paper, probably still have a copy here somewhere ;-)

But I have always credited the 4044 development with the same sort
of
genius as the light bulb, sliced bread, and peanut butter with
chocolate......

Before the 4044, we were using slip counters for frequency/phase
comparison
( Fairchild applications note dealing with avionics - John Nichols
)
and they were a pain in the ass to analyze. The 4044, especially
when used
with an op amp, made the analysis very straightforward..... Later
versions in
CMOS (4046) had more pump voltage and lower leakage. I couldn't get
a hold
of the dead zone problem , and leakage, until I started building them
out of
separate high speed flipflops.........

Just reminiscing, and the mention of your involvement with the 4044
yanked my
crank enough to respond....

Andy Sharpe

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Aug 2, 2005

On 2 Aug 2005 11:19:39 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

Sorry, Jim, I just found the patent reference....... I remembered
that I had referred to Laune's patent in the
patent search I provided for my quad D patent.....so I looked up mine
and got
the following numbers from it..... :

Laune patent # 3714663 Jan 1973

That number comes up as "Timing Number Generator", By Clarence G.
Smith.

I couldn't read the text cause my laptop doesn't have the plugin for
it. Full text
isn't on the gov pat server until 1976..

You might want to read it to see if you should've gotten credit for it
(grin)....
If this is truly yours, ....... thanks for making my life a lot
easier.....

Andy Sharpe (
aka Claude Andrew Sharpe)

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Andy · Aug 2, 2005

Andy writes:

Possibly I've done a few more, but you seem to be smarter, so
I'd say we're even... :&gt

))

Those DAMN little packages are one of my pet peeves. For the
last
10 years, whenever I sent away for a sample, all I could get was those
little
microscopic specks that takes FOREVER to lash up into a breadboard to
test. Practically have to do complete pcb layouts in order to build up
a
small test circuit....
I prefer the 8 pin dips ( Like the MC1350), or full size packages
that I
can plug into a socket if I want, or dead bug some wirewrap to the
pins
if I'm in a great hurry. Personally, I did as much at home in my
workshop
as at work, and like the ease of layout.
Of course the RF stuff pretty much has to have the tiny packages.
But a
LOT of the A/Ds and the mixed signal stuff is at low freqs, and the
only thing
the packages are good for is mass production of smt designs..........
By the
time I was ready for that, pcbs were avaiable ---- I wanted to mess
about with
the chip to see if it worked like I thought so I could include it in
the design......

If you are one of the younger guys, you might not know any better,
since
very very few of the present generation has any interest at all in
building stuff
up at home, or in exploring new ideas which are not used in a present
product
because it could be done quickly and without much effort......and was a
hell
of a lot of fun, besides....... I doubt there was a single product
that I developed
for Bendix, TI , or Raytheon that didn't have a substantial part of
the design
done in my home shop, cause it was easier to do there....

Ok, I CAN use the tiny specks. I've learned to do it. But it is a
real pain
in the ass and a time waster, in my opinion.......

End of rant...... out of breath........need beer ........

Party on,
Andy

Tim Wescott · Aug 2, 2005

Andy wrote:

Andy writes:

Possibly I've done a few more, but you seem to be smarter, so
I'd say we're even... :&gt))

Those DAMN little packages are one of my pet peeves. For the
last
10 years, whenever I sent away for a sample, all I could get was those
little
microscopic specks that takes FOREVER to lash up into a breadboard to
test. Practically have to do complete pcb layouts in order to build up
a
small test circuit....
I prefer the 8 pin dips ( Like the MC1350), or full size packages
that I
can plug into a socket if I want, or dead bug some wirewrap to the
pins
if I'm in a great hurry. Personally, I did as much at home in my
workshop
as at work, and like the ease of layout.
Of course the RF stuff pretty much has to have the tiny packages.
But a
LOT of the A/Ds and the mixed signal stuff is at low freqs, and the
only thing
the packages are good for is mass production of smt designs..........
By the
time I was ready for that, pcbs were avaiable ---- I wanted to mess
about with
the chip to see if it worked like I thought so I could include it in
the design......

If you are one of the younger guys, you might not know any better,
since
very very few of the present generation has any interest at all in
building stuff
up at home, or in exploring new ideas which are not used in a present
product
because it could be done quickly and without much effort......and was a
hell
of a lot of fun, besides....... I doubt there was a single product
that I developed
for Bendix, TI , or Raytheon that didn't have a substantial part of
the design
done in my home shop, cause it was easier to do there....

Ok, I CAN use the tiny specks. I've learned to do it. But it is a
real pain
in the ass and a time waster, in my opinion.......

End of rant...... out of breath........need beer ........

Party on,
Andy

One of my steady customers and a former employer uses one of the 24-hour

turn places -- you do a layout with 2 or 3 parts, get the board, build
it up. Since you're only doing a 2-layer board the layout is quick, you
get used to keeping it spread out so you can mod it if necessary, signal
integrity is good and the actual hours spent are low enough to pay for
the board.

Having said that, everything that I've ever done has been with
through-hole parts or dead-bugged. I've probably have more than 500
DIP-packaged parts in the room with me, and probably less than 20
surface-mount IC's -- and those 20 are all freebies.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Jim Thompson · Aug 2, 2005

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:19:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On 2 Aug 2005 11:19:39 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Andy writes:

Sorry, Jim, I just found the patent reference....... I remembered
that I had referred to Laune's patent in the
patent search I provided for my quad D patent.....so I looked up mine
and got
the following numbers from it..... :

Laune patent # 3714663 Jan 1973

That number comes up as "Timing Number Generator", By Clarence G.
Smith.

[snip]

Andy,

Can you provide a corrected number? I'm curious what deLaune
patented.

Treadway was stuck at Motorola because his wife had cancer (Hodgkin's)
and he needed the health insurance coverage. When she died (of
pneumonia) he promptly left Motorola. Amazing what the auto-immune
drugs can do to you... I saw Kay Treadway one evening at a PTA
meeting... she seemed fine... the next day she was rushed to hospital
and died within a few hours :-(

I'll be rather ticked if deLaune plagiarized Treadway's work and got
the patent :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Andy · Aug 3, 2005

Andy replies:

Only 500 ???? Well, we all have to start somewhere (big grin).

I measure my DIP parts, which go back 35-40 years, by the pound.

I have sacks of 5400 s ., for instance, which I will , of course, never
use,,,,,
.... but am too stubborn to throw out...
Whenever I dig out an old part it is usually to repair something I
built
25 years ago , and I have to scrape all the DIP leads with an exacto
knife to get the oxidation off, and then re-tin them.......

I have several dozen of the freebees in the tiny tiny tiny packages,
and I
only will use them when I want to spend more time attaching leads to
them
than building the rest of the circuit. Typically, I will take apart a
piece of
lamp cord and get a single strand of the copper wire, and then, using a

magnifier, manage to attach it , somehow, to the package leads.......
Damn communist conspiracy, if you ask me....

I am aware of the internet pcb houses, and many of them seem like
good
deals, and they provide the layout programs for free. However, by the
time
I have gotten an envelope and a stamp, I can typically dead bug a test
circuit together with a normal, Christian-size DIP. It's only worth
the trouble
if I am on the clock and getting paid for wasting my time.......
I bet it does cut down on the samples that Analog Devices has to
give out
as freebees, tho.
Andy

Andy · Aug 3, 2005

Jim,

Here is the website where I see Jon De Laune's patent.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Motorola.ASNM.&s2=Laune.INZZ.&OS=AN/Motorola+AND+IN/Laune&RS=AN/Motorola+AND+IN/Laune

With any luck, you can just click on it here,...... otherwise:

I got it by going to www.uspto.gov and clicking on "
Search" in the left column

Then I selected Advanced search.

In field 1 , I put Mototola and then chose Assignee

In field 2 , I put Laune and then chose Inventor

It seems to be the only one that Jon did for Motorola.

And I seemed to have gotten it wrong, somehow, on my patent disclosure
from
35 years ago, so when I gave you the patent number, it was the wrong
one......

Ah, yess,,,,,, I am aware of the idea stealing that goes on...... On
several of
mine, when they were issued, I noticed that my boss's name was
credited as
co-inventor......... ( I wonder how that got there !!!! )

No matter. There's glory enough for all of us....... (grin)

........ and I'll never be able to question him about it...... cause I
plan on going to heaven.....

Andy

Jim Thompson · Aug 3, 2005

On 2 Aug 2005 18:45:04 -0700, "Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote:

Jim,

Here is the website where I see Jon De Laune's patent.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Motorola.ASNM.&s2=Laune.INZZ.&OS=AN/Motorola+AND+IN/Laune&RS=AN/Motorola+AND+IN/Laune

With any luck, you can just click on it here,...... otherwise:

I got it by going to www.uspto.gov and clicking on "
Search" in the left column

Then I selected Advanced search.

In field 1 , I put Mototola and then chose Assignee

In field 2 , I put Laune and then chose Inventor

It seems to be the only one that Jon did for Motorola.

And I seemed to have gotten it wrong, somehow, on my patent disclosure
from
35 years ago, so when I gave you the patent number, it was the wrong
one......

Ah, yess,,,,,, I am aware of the idea stealing that goes on...... On
several of
mine, when they were issued, I noticed that my boss's name was
credited as
co-inventor......... ( I wonder how that got there !!!! )

No matter. There's glory enough for all of us....... (grin)

....... and I'll never be able to question him about it...... cause I
plan on going to heaven.....

Andy

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Michael A. Terrell · Aug 3, 2005

Andy wrote:

Whenever I dig out an old part it is usually to repair something I
built
25 years ago , and I have to scrape all the DIP leads with an exacto
knife to get the oxidation off, and then re-tin them.......

Andy

That is where a solder pot comes in handy. A little liquid flux, a
pair of needle nose pliers and a steady hand is all it takes to clean
and tin thousands of pins an hour.

--
Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website deleted
after threats were telephoned to my church.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Clive Tobin · Aug 3, 2005

Tim Wescott wrote:

If there's anything missing from the modern line up of tiny-logic chips
it's a 4046-style phase detector

It wasn't in an ant-sized package but it was a sensibly sized 8-pin
minidip. National used to make the 74C932N which was just the phase
detector portion of a 4046. Pin compatible at the pin 1 end of the
board if you connect pin 4 to ground.

If anyone is interested I could part with dozens of them as there are
more than I will ever use. clive at web band dot com

Andy · Aug 3, 2005

Andy writes:

I didn't plan to get sucked into this, but I would suggest that you
read an
EDN article "Principles of Three State Phase Detection" , which was
published in around the mid-70's/

It shows the implementation of the 4044 type of phase detector, but
using
two D's and a reset. This is much easier to understand, tho it does
EXACTLY
the same.

It also has the state transition diagram ( 2 inputs, 2 outputs, 16
states)
which, to a digital oriented person, tells the whole story......

I don't disagree with your interpretation, but , please , review
this article and
see if there is a change in the way you look at this problem.....

Remember, there are many ways of looking at the same problem and
the "explanation'" of the solution is very subjective. What makes a
lot of sense
to you may be different from the way that Jim or the way that I look
at it....
..... doesn't mean you, or me, or Jim, are wrong..... just different
degrees of
...."completeness"..

Anyway, I hope you will take time to look up the reference. 3
state phase
detectors are like a Chinese puzzle. ..... Once a person finally has
it "click" in
his mind, there is no need whatever to read app notes or spec sheets to
fully
understand the operation,..... whether it be TTL, ECL, Cmos, single
ended,
differential mode, or voltage or current sourced........ If it clicks
with you, you
will be a lot happier.....

Andy Sharpe

Daniel Lang · Aug 26, 2005

I do this when I roll my own phase detector using part of a fpga.
Both outputs are normally 3-stated. Rather than tying both together,
I use two separate resistors from the outputs to the lowpass filter.

This way, I can design the state machine to overlap the pump up and
pump down signals slightly at zero phase offset, eliminating the
dead zone.

Daniel Lang

"Andy" <andysharpe@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1123006075.040158.248620@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Andy responds to Tim:

I would prefer separate outputs for the phase detector Pump up and
pump down, (which I could tie
together if desired ). And a pin for a lock detector, rudimentary
tho it would
have to be......

I Andy Sharpe, retired, PE,
etc........

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