300 kW EV Tractor vs 400 hp Diesel

Not nearly negative enough to pay for the time you'll spend scraping
the creosote, slag, ash, tar and other carcinogic crap off the 1/2
mile of fire tubing.

There's nowhere close to that much tubing.
Then it ain't 400 hp.

And all of that stuff would be burnt off
at the operating temperature.
That's a pipe dream.

. . .

It's far more practical than hauling 10 tons
of batteries around.
That's the point of the trolly wire. The size of the battery can be
reduced by 1 - 2 orders of magnitude because, unlike an EV or plug in,
the tractor charges up every 6 - 10 minutes, after each pass.

A Tesla equivalent battery will work in most applications, very light
for a tractor.

The capital cost would in the long run be even lower.

It's also more efficient
because it only converts chemical energy into
mechanical work. ďż˝
Not nearly as efficient as a real power plant burning bio.


Bret Cahill
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:57:13 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:

This thread is about electric v diesel tractors.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors, i. e. Bret
Cahill's posting style, feel free to start another thread.
---
If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors and you
object to off-topic posting, like why another thread should be started
if it's about your posting style, then you should have started
another thread in which to post that comment.
---

Of course, you'll get your fanny handed to you on that issue as well.
---
Since you can't seem to find your own ass with both hands, I don't see
why anyone would consider that much of a danger.

Also...

No context?

Hmm... AOL, Google groups, I understand.

Mommy won't spring for a _real_ USENET provider???

JF
 
That's the point of the trolly wire. �The size of the battery can be
reduced by 1 - 2 orders of magnitude because, unlike an EV or plug in,
the tractor charges up every 6 - 10 minutes, after each pass.

Bret, if the tractor goes (what was it?) 1 mph or so,
Some moron put the 0.5 mph figure. According to some government or
industry site posted here, for almost all operations, the tractor is
moving 6 - 10 mph.

and it needs 10 minutes for one pass (5 min each way), then the field is no
wider than 440 feet.
Is that a reasonable assumption ?

If so, why not just use a high-voltage extension cable ?

Actually, a 10kV line can be miles long without too many losses (for the 300 kW that you need).
The cheapest system is a 1/2 mile long wire and a Tesla sized battery.


Bret Cahill
 
This thread is about electric v diesel tractors.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors, i. e. Bret
Cahill's posting style, feel free to start another thread.

Of course, you'll get your fanny handed to you on that issue as well.

Take your topic to an appropriate newsgroup
That explains why you can't do basic electronics calculations.


Bret Cahill
 
That's the point of the trolly wire. �The size of the battery can be
reduced by 1 - 2 orders of magnitude because, unlike an EV or plug in,
the tractor charges up every 6 - 10 minutes, after each pass.

Bret, if the tractor goes (what was it?) 1 mph or so, and it needs 10 minutes for one pass (5 min each way), then the field is no
wider than 440 feet.

Is that a reasonable assumption ?
No. As one poster citing government and industry material pointed
out, tractors generally go much faster.

If so, why not just use a high-voltage extension cable ?
Another moveable wire off of the stationary wire?

Actually, a 10kV line can be miles long without too many losses (for the 300 kW that you need).
Losses aren't an issue.


Bret Cahill
 
Makita sells a lithium ion pack that recharges in 10
minutes.

So sitting at a charger for 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour workday is
acceptable for a 6 minute work period across the field?

Farmers are already paying people to sit in trucks 7.2 hours out of a
12 hour day to go through customs at the border.

That's just cost per hour for a driver and a truck,
Wasted money unnecessarily tying up the driver's and truck's time.

. . .

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?

Why not just admit that
That you are dodgin' 'n dodgin'?

OK, now that you twisted my are, I admit it.

You are dodgin' 'n dodgin'.

. . .


After all, the diesel costs $110/hour -- close to $200/hour in two
years -- so there is plenty of savings to pay the tractor operator.

Yeah, if your scheme was viable,
Is there any reason to believe it isn't?

. . .

Anyways I'm still waiting for one single authority, any web page --
anything -- that claims that battery recharge times will not continue
to drop.
. . .

there's no doubt that charging times will
drop if demand so dictates.
Then we'll need to start building prototypes as soon as possible to
accomodate the new batteries.


The problem you don't seem to be able to grasp is that in order to
charge the batteries quickly, once they've become depleted, requires
huge currents. ďż˝
"Huge?"

Science has been quantitative since Galileo

Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric
locomotive.

. . .

The Tesla is probably more at than 8
hours of recharge time.

At the typical 10 kW household current.

. . .


Anyway you dodged the issue.

What issue?
The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.
Notice the dodge?

Out in a field the 1 MW ?line would charge up the tractor in a couple
of minutes with off the shelf technology.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...

Got a real-world example? (Schematic, bill of materials, etc.)

Never heard of electrified rail? �Compared to a 10 minute 400 hp
tractor recharge that would be 30X more power just for one locomotive.

Apples and oranges.
Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Neither.
Maybe you just jumped in on the wrong side and now cannot admit you
were wrong.


Bret Cahill
 
This thread is about electric v diesel tractors.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors, i. e. Bret
Cahill's posting style, feel free to start another thread.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors
Then start another thread.

This thread is about electric tractors. I thought I made that clear.

You need to get some medication for your attention deficit disorder.


Bret Cahill
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:35:40 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

This thread is about electric v diesel tractors.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors, i. e. Bret
Cahill's posting style, feel free to start another thread.

Of course, you'll get your fanny handed to you on that issue as well.

Take your topic to an appropriate newsgroup

That explains why you can't do basic electronics calculations.
---
Non-sequitur and, LOL, PKB?

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Losses aren't an issue.
---
So, you don't know anything about electrical power distribution
either?

Buffoon, losses are_always_ an issue.

Why else do you think long-haul transmission lines use high voltages
to move electricity around?

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Makita sells a lithium ion pack that recharges in 10
minutes.

So sitting at a charger for 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour workday is
acceptable for a 6 minute work period across the field?

Farmers are already paying people to sit in trucks 7.2 hours out of a
12 hour day to go through customs at the border.

That's just cost per hour for a driver and a truck,

Wasted money unnecessarily tying up the driver's and truck's time.
---
If all that results in a net gain for the farmer, then it's hardly
wasted.
---

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?

Why not just admit that

That you are dodgin' 'n dodgin'?

OK, now that you twisted my are, I admit it.

You are dodgin' 'n dodgin'.
---
Seems to me that you're the one doing all the clipping so you don't
have to deal with the issue then inserting some inane comment in order
to muddy the water.
---

After all, the diesel costs $110/hour -- close to $200/hour in two
years -- so there is plenty of savings to pay the tractor operator.

Yeah, if your scheme was viable,

Is there any reason to believe it isn't?
---
Many, as I've pointed out earlier, and more than once.
---

Anyways I'm still waiting for one single authority, any web page --
anything -- that claims that battery recharge times will not continue
to drop.

. . .

there's no doubt that charging times will
drop if demand so dictates.

Then we'll need to start building prototypes as soon as possible to
accomodate the new batteries.
---
"We"????

If you're so sure it'll work get off your lazy ass and do it.
---

The problem you don't seem to be able to grasp is that in order to
charge the batteries quickly, once they've become depleted, requires
huge currents. ?

"Huge?"
---
Yes, and the more quickly you want to charge the battery the larger
that current becomes.
---

Science has been quantitative since Galileo
---
Red herring
---

Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric
locomotive.
---
Ignoratio elenchi
---

. . .

The Tesla is probably more at than 8
hours of recharge time.

At the typical 10 kW household current.


. . .


Anyway you dodged the issue.

What issue?

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?
---
Yes. you refused to address the issue, which was that you don't know
the difference between current and power, and changed the subject in
order to divert,
---

Out in a field the 1 MW ?line would charge up the tractor in a couple
of minutes with off the shelf technology.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...

Got a real-world example? (Schematic, bill of materials, etc.)

Never heard of electrified rail? ?Compared to a 10 minute 400 hp
tractor recharge that would be 30X more power just for one locomotive.

Apples and oranges.

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?
---
It's Ignoratio elenchi
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Neither.

Maybe you just jumped in on the wrong side and now cannot admit you
were wrong.
---
You can't even refute the arguments I made, mathematically, which
proved the folly of your position, nor can you refute, logically, any
statements I've made, so you resort to your little bob and weave
routine in order to attempt to impugn my veracity.

I think most everyone is on to you and your chicanery by now, but
carry on if you must, chimps can often be entertaining.

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:21:04 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

This thread is about electric v diesel tractors.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors, i. e. Bret
Cahill's posting style, feel free to start another thread.

If you want to discuss something besides electric tractors

Then start another thread.

This thread is about electric tractors. I thought I made that clear.

You need to get some medication for your attention deficit disorder.
---
If this thread is about electric tractors then why are you posting
about attention deficit disorder?

JF
 
Rob Dekker wrote:

As long as they stay withing reasonable limits. Which should be OK for (standard) 11kV AC distribution power line and a few miles of
cable.
You're thinking of using 11kV flexible cable (what happens to 'erosion' of the insulation btw ?) miles long in junction with
agricultural equipment designed to cut through anything like that.

You're certifiably mad.

Graham
 
On 7/25/08 9:35 AM, in article
e7aba415-7d84-4f0a-985c-79fd99f99b85@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Bret
Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

The Russians use some conflict oriented approach to problem solving
but that's generally not my first choice.

I welcome critical feedback for several reasons:

1. I'm better prepared when I approach someone who might be
interested in actually doing something. Often you only get one
chance.

2. I often overlook real concerns that can be corrected.

3. Others can often help me work around my concerns, i. e., your
mentioning the high cycling battery.

4. I don't suffer from an idea block so there's no reason for me to
persue something that won't work.
Do you mean to say "pursue" or "peruse" or something different?

But when the responses are utterly useless as feedback, i. e., a huge
current or battery is impossible or a loose wire could be a danger to
life and limb, and, even worse, the disreputable issue dodging -- I
have yet to get any reasoning on how the grid-battery tractor would be
fundamentally different than the Volt or any other series hybrid or EV
-- then there's no reason not to call a spade a spade.
Actually, several people have commented correctly on battery issues of
importance, which you choose to naysay. You would have people believe you
are very intelligent, but you aren't; you're narrow minded, refusing to do
any real study/research. From these threads and others I researched, I
perceive you to view yourself as an "idea man." I see much flim flam in
your actions.

The reality is there is no polite response to the suggestion that
furrows cannot be circular. Everyone in every industrial country with
photo magazines knows about terraced agriculture or contour plowing
because of their appeal to photographers. How dumb does a poster have
to be to _not_ understand that the curved furrows could continue to
curve into a circle?
I doubt anyone would fail to see it, but you created a "you vs. them" issue
of it anyhow. Typical flim flam. The *real* question, the one you don't
like, is - Is it practical to farm in circles even when fields are extremely
large rectangles. With no research you have answered "yes," because a "no"
answer could be anathema to your project.

I imagine a farmer working his fields, including some hilly ridges, even
plowed a few circles. Some farmers are artistic and enjoy a bit of fun, and
have been known to create some clever patterns. And none of this has
anything to do with supporting your plans for circular fields. Do it or
don't but this still isn't the newsgroup to argue the non-issue.
In those cases you just call the moron a moron.
Ok. Your a moron. Feel better now?

Eventually I get bored with the white noise but as a populist I must
at least initially encourage everyone to participate.
It has been obvious that you think yourself to be above the "common folk."
Adopting the populist title certifies it.

What is also clear is that you do not wish to do any of your own study of
the elements involved in your Grand Plan, so you blunder along hoping
everything will fall into place. It rarely works.
Bret Cahill
 
The Russians use some conflict oriented approach to problem solving
but that's generally not my first choice.

I welcome critical feedback for several reasons:

1. I'm better prepared when I approach someone who might be
interested in actually doing something. Often you only get one
chance.

2. I often overlook real concerns that can be corrected.

3. Others can often help me work around my concerns, i. e., your
mentioning the high cycling battery.

4. I don't suffer from an idea block so there's no reason for me to
persue something that won't work.

But when the responses are utterly useless as feedback, i. e., a huge
current or battery is impossible or a loose wire could be a danger to
life and limb, and, even worse, the disreputable issue dodging -- I
have yet to get any reasoning on how the grid-battery tractor would be
fundamentally different than the Volt or any other series hybrid or EV
-- then there's no reason not to call a spade a spade.

The reality is there is no polite response to the suggestion that
furrows cannot be circular. Everyone in every industrial country with
photo magazines knows about terraced agriculture or contour plowing
because of their appeal to photographers. How dumb does a poster have
to be to _not_ understand that the curved furrows could continue to
curve into a circle?

In those cases you just call the moron a moron.

Eventually I get bored with the white noise but as a populist I must
at least initially encourage everyone to participate.


Bret Cahill
 
On 7/25/08 10:06 AM, in article
db4fae41-e50a-4396-9693-6df62596f314@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com, "Bret
Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

(snip)
Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric
locomotive.

Ignoratio elenchi

Here, we'll try again. Those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an
electric locomotive.

This time no dodgin' 'n dodgin'.
Same back to you...... No dodging. You raised the electric locomotive
variable, so tell us: When that (diesel) electric locomotive is towing a
train, how many horsepower is it generating? And tell us how many cars are
in the train, and is it on the flat or is there some grade.

Then we can consider the 1/30th as HP


. . .

The Tesla is probably more at than 8
hours of recharge time.

At the typical 10 kW household current.

. . .

Anyway you dodged the issue.

What issue?

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?

Here we'll try again:

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?

---
Yes. you refused to address the issue,

The issue was the Tesla charger is for household wiring.

You tried to dodge it.

. . .

Out in a field the 1 MW ?line would charge up the tractor in a couple
of minutes with off the shelf technology.
Only specifics are useable. What is the charging voltage AND current. Is
the charge taking place via a cable or by the Tesla (inductive coupled)
charger?

(snip)
 
On 7/25/08 10:18 AM, in article 488A0AD7.E569296@hotmail.com, "Eeyore"
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Bret Cahill wrote:

Losses aren't an issue.

I just love the stuff you come up with !

Graham
I'd like to know what he thinks losses are.
 
Makita sells a lithium ion pack that recharges in 10
minutes.

So sitting at a charger for 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour workday is
acceptable for a 6 minute work period across the field?

Farmers are already paying people to sit in trucks 7.2 hours out of a
12 hour day to go through customs at the border.

That's just cost per hour for a driver and a truck,

Wasted money unnecessarily tying up the driver's and truck's time.

If all that results in a net gain for the farmer, then it's hardly
wasted.
So you are now arguing _for_ farm electrification?

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?

Why not just admit that
Still dodging?

Here, we'll try again:

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?

After all, the diesel costs $110/hour -- close to $200/hour in two
years -- so there is plenty of savings to pay the tractor operator.
.. . .

Anyways I'm still waiting for one single authority, any web page --
anything -- that claims that battery recharge times will not continue
to drop.

. . .

there's no doubt that charging times will
drop if demand so dictates.
Then what was all the whining about wasting time recharging out in the
field?

.. . .

The problem you don't seem to be able to grasp is that in order to
charge the batteries quickly, once they've become depleted, requires
huge currents. ?

"Huge?"

Yes, and the more quickly you want to charge the battery the larger
that current becomes.
That's your "mathematical" argument?

It's "huge?"

Science has been quantitative since Galileo

Red herring
You don't even know what "quantitative" means.

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric
locomotive.

Ignoratio elenchi
Here, we'll try again. Those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an
electric locomotive.

This time no dodgin' 'n dodgin'.

.. . .

The Tesla is probably more at than 8
hours of recharge time.

At the typical 10 kW household current.

. . .

Anyway you dodged the issue.

What issue?

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.
Notice the dodge?

Here we'll try again:

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?

---
Yes. you refused to address the issue,
The issue was the Tesla charger is for household wiring.

You tried to dodge it.

.. . .

Out in a field the 1 MW ?line would charge up the tractor in a couple
of minutes with off the shelf technology.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...

Got a real-world example? (Schematic, bill of materials, etc.)

Never heard of electrified rail? ?Compared to a 10 minute 400 hp
tractor recharge that would be 30X more power just for one locomotive.

Apples and oranges.

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?
Notice the dodge?

Here we'll try again:

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

---
It's Ignoratio elenchi

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Neither.

Maybe you just jumped in on the wrong side and now cannot admit you
were wrong.

You can't even refute the arguments I made, mathematically,
A "huge" current is a mathematical argument?

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?


Bret Cahill
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Makita sells a lithium ion pack that recharges in 10
minutes.

So sitting at a charger for 7.2 hours out of a 12 hour workday is
acceptable for a 6 minute work period across the field?

Farmers are already paying people to sit in trucks 7.2 hours out of a
12 hour day to go through customs at the border.

That's just cost per hour for a driver and a truck,

Wasted money unnecessarily tying up the driver's and truck's time.

If all that results in a net gain for the farmer, then it's hardly
wasted.

So you are now arguing _for_ farm electrification?
---
Nope, I'm saying that your argument is specious.
---

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?

Why not just admit that

Still dodging?
---
Never have been; are you still trying to obfuscate the issue by
clipping?
---

Here, we'll try again:

Why not save money by having them sit in electric tractors in the
field instead?
---
You really are thick, aren't you?

You don't save money by having the tractor idle while the battery's
charging, you're still paying for the tractor, the fuel that's being
used while the battery's being charged, the operator's salary, and the
loss of revenue from whatever work that should have been done but
wasn't because the battery was being charged.
---

there's no doubt that charging times will
drop if demand so dictates.

Then what was all the whining about wasting time recharging out in the
field?
---
ISTM that you're the one who's doing the whining;

I just stated a fact which is pertinent at the present time, not one
which will have any consequence when superconducting batteries will be
able to charge instantaneously at infinite current.
---

The problem you don't seem to be able to grasp is that in order to
charge the batteries quickly, once they've become depleted, requires
huge currents. ?

"Huge?"

Yes, and the more quickly you want to charge the battery the larger
that current becomes.

That's your "mathematical" argument?
---
Nope the argument I'm referring to, (as you're well aware, you phony)
was the one where I showed you that current required to charge a
battery to C varies inversely with the charge time, and then some.
---

It's "huge?"
---
Sure.
---

Science has been quantitative since Galileo

Red herring

You don't even know what "quantitative" means.
---
Sure I do.
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Anyway those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an electric
locomotive.

Ignoratio elenchi

Here, we'll try again. Those "huge" currents are 1/30th those of an
electric locomotive.

---
Really? At what current and voltage do externally powered locomotives
run?
---

The Tesla is probably more at than 8
hours of recharge time.

At the typical 10 kW household current.

. . .

Anyway you dodged the issue.

What issue?

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?

Here we'll try again:

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

The Tesla charger was for the typical household, not an industrial or
farm application.

Notice the dodge?

---
Yes. you refused to address the issue,

The issue was the Tesla charger is for household wiring.

You tried to dodge it.
---
On the contrary, I replied that it doesn't make any difference because
in order to charge a battery you still have to fill it up with
electrons, (you know, those teeny little bits that whiz around the
nucleus of an atom) and if you want to fill it up twice as fast you
have to use twice the current. Or words to that effect, anyway.

Now you may have been thinking I was trying to dodge the issue because
you couldn't understand what I was talking about, but then that's a
failing on your end, not mine, wouldn't you agree?
---

Out in a field the 1 MW ?line would charge up the tractor in a couple
of minutes with off the shelf technology.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...

Got a real-world example? (Schematic, bill of materials, etc.)

Never heard of electrified rail? ?Compared to a 10 minute 400 hp
tractor recharge that would be 30X more power just for one locomotive.

Apples and oranges.

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

Notice the dodge?
---
Yes, you dodged by not even attempting to refute my irrefutable
"apples and oranges" critique but by changing the subject.
---

Here we'll try again:

Can you tell us what you think is a pertinent difference?

---
It's Ignoratio elenchi

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?

Neither.

Maybe you just jumped in on the wrong side and now cannot admit you
were wrong.

You can't even refute the arguments I made, mathematically,

A "huge" current is a mathematical argument?
---
It can be, if "huge" is quantified and used in an expression, but you
know very well, you phony, that wasn't the context in which it was
used.
---

Are you just acting dumb or are you really this stupid in real life?
---
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tawdry

JF
 
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

That's the point of the trolly wire. ?The size of the battery can be
reduced by 1 - 2 orders of magnitude because, unlike an EV or plug in,
the tractor charges up every 6 - 10 minutes, after each pass.

Bret, if the tractor goes (what was it?) 1 mph or so, and it needs 10 minutes for one pass (5 min each way), then the field is no
wider than 440 feet.

Is that a reasonable assumption ?

No. As one poster citing government and industry material pointed
out, tractors generally go much faster.

If so, why not just use a high-voltage extension cable ?

Another moveable wire off of the stationary wire?

Actually, a 10kV line can be miles long without too many losses (for the 300 kW that you need).

Losses aren't an issue.
---
Ah, you finally took enough rope... :)

JF
 

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