2 component negative feedback oscillator and voltage "multip

[bitrex]

On 1/27/20 1:13 PM, Robert Baer wrote:

bitrex wrote:
On 1/26/20 10:56 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 01:09:29 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 1/25/20 9:39 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:19:04 -0800, Robert Baer
robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 23:49:53 -0800, Robert Baer
robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

     Problems are: Spice version does not oscillate, and Spice
LED voltage
is not 3V.

Maybe it's not a transistor.



    Standard NPN, i think.
    Things seem to not oscillate in Spice.

That circuit would never oscillate. If it did, it would pump energy
*into* the battery.

Might be something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/ZXSC380FHTA/ZXSC380FHCT-ND/1767192


but not that exact circuit.



With lossless L this is about 95% efficient:


snip

That needs a 3-winding transformer and doesn't start reliably. It has
a do-nothing state.

All one-transistor positive feedback oscillators have a "do nothing'
state my dude...

I don't know any 1 winding or 2 winding one-transistor oscillators
that have very good efficiency driving an LED, the current ramp needs
to be well-controlled and the transistor driven hard on and off. A
sine oscillator won't do that, a naive blocking oscillator doesn't do
it either and taking the LED output from the transistor collector
shits it up. Rectifying and filtering would improve it but then you
burn power in the rectifier.
  What about the joule thief? Seems to run until the cell is damn near
dead.

Ya, it can boost a very low voltage that doesn't automatically imply its
very efficient at transferring energy for any given combination of
components and supply voltage. The very simple ones with one coupled
inductor and a resistor I don't know how they would achieve very high
efficiency (>90%) AFAIK they operate by allowing the transformer core to
saturate that's not efficient.

Could probably cut-and-try component values to get it in the 80s but
performance would depend heavily on the properties of the inductor and LED.

There are lots of variations like:

<https://homemade-circuits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/LEDDriver-1.png>

and:

<https://devopedia.org/images/article/181/7660.1559297408.png>

Some may be inherently better than others.

 

[bitrex]

On 1/27/20 1:42 PM, bitrex wrote:

If it were easy to make a highly efficient 1 transistor oscillator/LED
driver that was highly efficient

Whoops, it can be just single highly-efficient

 

[John Larkin]

On 26 Jan 2020 18:39:18 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com>
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Might be something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/ZXSC380FHTA/ZXSC380FHCT-ND/1767192

The ZXSC380 circuit has only three parts, a sot-23
"transistor", an inductor and LED. The same three
parts in the .asc circuit are arraigned differently,
but as you pointed out, the LED is back biased, and
cannot work as drawn. So, the reverse engineering
on the Dollar Tree LED Flashlight must be in error.
The ZXSC380 likely costs pennies, in high volumes.

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[bitrex]

On 1/27/20 3:21 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On 26 Jan 2020 18:39:18 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Might be something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/ZXSC380FHTA/ZXSC380FHCT-ND/1767192

The ZXSC380 circuit has only three parts, a sot-23
"transistor", an inductor and LED. The same three
parts in the .asc circuit are arraigned differently,
but as you pointed out, the LED is back biased, and
cannot work as drawn. So, the reverse engineering
on the Dollar Tree LED Flashlight must be in error.
The ZXSC380 likely costs pennies, in high volumes.



Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

These are 4.5 cent in quantities of 50, seem to work quite well, I got
them delivered to my DHL dropoff location in about 5 days from China. I
believe Win posted the link originally.

<https://lcsc.com/product-detail/LED-Drivers_MT9284AS6_C181780.html>

 

On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

On 26 Jan 2020 18:39:18 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Might be something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/ZXSC380FHTA/ZXSC380FHCT-ND/1767192

The ZXSC380 circuit has only three parts, a sot-23
"transistor", an inductor and LED. The same three
parts in the .asc circuit are arraigned differently,
but as you pointed out, the LED is back biased, and
cannot work as drawn. So, the reverse engineering
on the Dollar Tree LED Flashlight must be in error.
The ZXSC380 likely costs pennies, in high volumes.



Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

 

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On 26 Jan 2020 18:39:18 -0800, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

Might be something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/ZXSC380FHTA/ZXSC380FHCT-ND/1767192

The ZXSC380 circuit has only three parts, a sot-23
"transistor", an inductor and LED. The same three
parts in the .asc circuit are arraigned differently,
but as you pointed out, the LED is back biased, and
cannot work as drawn. So, the reverse engineering
on the Dollar Tree LED Flashlight must be in error.
The ZXSC380 likely costs pennies, in high volumes.



Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[bitrex]

On 1/28/20 1:38 PM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.


Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

6AK5s are $5 for two from Shenzen that's actually a little higher than
they're usually listed for.

<https://www.wish.com/search/vacuum%20tube/product/5b4c6e425df38d6bc209b006?&source=search&position=19>

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

tirsdag den 28. januar 2020 kl. 20.19.51 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:38:30 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.


Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

We have used thousands of a little Hammond extruded aluminum box. They
cost $8, need secondary machining, and are generally ugly and awful.
We recently got a quote from a Chinese source for a much nicer box,
machined to our drawing and anodized, for about $2.50. How can they do
that?

wait until you have some in hand, I've bought cheap extruded boxes that
looked nice on the picture, but in reality made from some extremely light
weird aluminium

We will also either laser blast or ink-jet the lettering, to eliminate
buying stickers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suig3pzj6swri2c/J002_1.jpg?raw=1

looks similar to Fischerelektronik,

https://cdn-reichelt.de/documents/datenblatt/C700/KOH-Gehaeuse%23FIS.pdf

What's nice is that the top lifts off instead of sliding off. This
will be nice thermally and for EMI too.

it might not be nearly as EMI tight as you expect

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:38:30 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.


Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

We have used thousands of a little Hammond extruded aluminum box. They
cost $8, need secondary machining, and are generally ugly and awful.
We recently got a quote from a Chinese source for a much nicer box,
machined to our drawing and anodized, for about $2.50. How can they do
that?

We will also either laser blast or ink-jet the lettering, to eliminate
buying stickers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suig3pzj6swri2c/J002_1.jpg?raw=1

What's nice is that the top lifts off instead of sliding off. This
will be nice thermally and for EMI too.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-01-28 14:19, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:38:30 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.


Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

We have used thousands of a little Hammond extruded aluminum box. They
cost $8, need secondary machining, and are generally ugly and awful.
We recently got a quote from a Chinese source for a much nicer box,
machined to our drawing and anodized, for about $2.50. How can they do
that?

We will also either laser blast or ink-jet the lettering, to eliminate
buying stickers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suig3pzj6swri2c/J002_1.jpg?raw=1

What's nice is that the top lifts off instead of sliding off. This
will be nice thermally and for EMI too.

It's nice looking, but I'd worry about the EMI shielding integrity.
There's apparently nothing enforcing good contact across the beltline.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:20:39 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-01-28 14:19, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:38:30 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 18:26:15 UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 06:26:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 20:21:19 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

Why would ayone bother to make and package a transistor or an IC and
sell it for one cent?

same reason companies sell resistors for a fraction of a cent?


NT

Thank you. That was very helpful.


Next thing you know, valves will become uneconomic.

We have used thousands of a little Hammond extruded aluminum box. They
cost $8, need secondary machining, and are generally ugly and awful.
We recently got a quote from a Chinese source for a much nicer box,
machined to our drawing and anodized, for about $2.50. How can they do
that?

We will also either laser blast or ink-jet the lettering, to eliminate
buying stickers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/suig3pzj6swri2c/J002_1.jpg?raw=1

What's nice is that the top lifts off instead of sliding off. This
will be nice thermally and for EMI too.




It's nice looking, but I'd worry about the EMI shielding integrity.
There's apparently nothing enforcing good contact across the beltline.

The end plates each have four screws, conductive, into the top and
bottom halves of the box. That should be pretty good.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[Winfield Hill]

Phil Hobbs wrote...

Round here we get a lot of GHz pickup, which is irritating.

GHz, whatever from? Cell towers, wi-fi?


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:51:51 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-01-29 09:30, Winfield Hill wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote...

Round here we get a lot of GHz pickup, which is irritating.

GHz, whatever from? Cell towers, wi-fi?



Some of each, I expect, plus a bunch of assorted schmutz. Gentle
flexing of the Danish butter cookies tin makes the pickup go up and down
by 20 dB sometimes. (It has 33 nF feedthrough caps on the power wires
and bulkhead-mount BNCs for signals.)

Irritating for development but probably a good thing overall--we pay
more attention to shield integrity that way.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Free EMI testing. If we move our hands around and DC offsets change,
we fix it. There are some nice EMI-hard opamps around these days.

I use a lot of DBC EMI enclosures. One employee punishment is "no
cookies for a week."

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8f0pwqopr3vr28i/DBCC.JPG?raw=1





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-01-29 09:30, Winfield Hill wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote...

Round here we get a lot of GHz pickup, which is irritating.

GHz, whatever from? Cell towers, wi-fi?

Some of each, I expect, plus a bunch of assorted schmutz. Gentle
flexing of the Danish butter cookies tin makes the pickup go up and down
by 20 dB sometimes. (It has 33 nF feedthrough caps on the power wires
and bulkhead-mount BNCs for signals.)

Irritating for development but probably a good thing overall--we pay
more attention to shield integrity that way.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com