Zynq devices, boards and suppliers

[Tom Gardner]

I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards. Avnet and Digilent
are front-runners, but any info/opinions about other
suppliers would be helpful too.

- ease of using their embedded linux. My needs
are simple, requiring a shell and TCP/IP protocols
over ethernet. GUI not required, but might be
used if it didn't complicate the development.

- quality of online support. How easy is it
likely to be to find the information so that
I can (a) duplicate any supplied demo environment
and (b) mutate it so that my code accesses my
programmable logic

- board production longevity. I'm not concerned
about decades, but I would be concerned if a
board was unobtainable within months

- ISE or Vivado environment

Background and context...

I'm intending to develop something based around a small
Xylinx Zynq device. Cost is an issue, but not to the
extent that I will be developing a board containing
the FPGA itself. I will, however, be developing a small
simple add-on board containing my analogue circuits.

Now I can read a datasheet and schematic and outline
to determine the extent to which a board is suitable.
However, as we are all aware, those documents /don't/
cover all the important points when choosing a board!

I've created many stand-alone hardware and software
embedded systems, but *not* based on linux *nor* on ARM
*nor* in the Xilinx ecosystem. Since Zynq devices
represent a complex environment, I'll have a learning
curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested
in the quality of the resources and support that
I'll need to overcome my misapprehensions.

 

[Frank Buss]

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards. Avnet and Digilent
are front-runners, but any info/opinions about other
suppliers would be helpful too.

If you don't need it now, you might take a look at the Parallella board:

http://www.parallella.org

Currently they have some issues with EOL parts and re-designing parts of
the board, so it will be delayed a bit. But I guess there are not much
boards with the Zynq chip for $99, and you get a lot of peripherals,
too, and of course the Epiphany coprocessor. And the Zynq chip used on
the Parallella board is supported by the free Xilinx ISE version:

http://forums.parallella.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=134

Linux is already working for the board (Ubuntu, well, you can't have
anything, but should be not too difficult to port Debian for it). Even
if you don't use it for your project later, might be a good starting
point to learn to program the Zynq.

--
Frank Buss, http://www.frank-buss.de
electronics and more: http://www.youtube.com/user/frankbuss

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/10/13 12:56, Frank Buss wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards. Avnet and Digilent
are front-runners, but any info/opinions about other
suppliers would be helpful too.

If you don't need it now, you might take a look at the Parallella board:

http://www.parallella.org

Currently they have some issues with EOL parts and re-designing parts of
the board, so it will be delayed a bit. But I guess there are not much
boards with the Zynq chip for $99, and you get a lot of peripherals,
too, and of course the Epiphany coprocessor. And the Zynq chip used on
the Parallella board is supported by the free Xilinx ISE version:

http://forums.parallella.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=134

Thanks.

I'd looked at that board a while ago, but at that time it
was insufficiently real. Having seen the standard of some
"open source" hardware[*] I'd like to see it be used in
anger before I committed to it. Contrariwise, longevity might
not be such an issue!

The low cost is remarkable. Before committing, I'd
want to find out:
- how to disable or ignore the Epiphany processor,
since it isn't useful to me
- what proportion of the programmable logic resources
would be available for me to use for my logic

[*] and some COTS hardware for that matter

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/10/13 21:18, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Xylinx Zynq device. Cost is an issue, but not to the
extent that I will be developing a board containing
the FPGA itself. I will, however, be developing a small
simple add-on board containing my analogue circuits.

This is almost a desktop class chip. Do you really need that power? I wish they have something smaller. I don't need dual core GHz core, but may be you do.

No I don't need that. But if it is there, I may find a use for it.

However, I do need one aspect of the SERDES I/O.

- what proportion of the programmable logic resources
would be available for me to use for my logic

They says a Z7010 or Z7020. But for $99, most likely Z7010, which has 28K logic cells available.

If you are not building with chips, does it really matter with:

1. A $50 CPU + tiny FPGA (28K)
or
2. A $30 CPU + $20 FPGA (500K)

I am sure you can find a cheaper board with 2.

So am I. But cost isn't everything; my time is more important.
Hence my question about board suppliers, not FPGA devices.

 

[MK]

On 16/10/2013 12:28, Tom Gardner wrote:

I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards. Avnet and Digilent
are front-runners, but any info/opinions about other
suppliers would be helpful too.

- ease of using their embedded linux. My needs
are simple, requiring a shell and TCP/IP protocols
over ethernet. GUI not required, but might be
used if it didn't complicate the development.

- quality of online support. How easy is it
likely to be to find the information so that
I can (a) duplicate any supplied demo environment
and (b) mutate it so that my code accesses my
programmable logic

- board production longevity. I'm not concerned
about decades, but I would be concerned if a
board was unobtainable within months

- ISE or Vivado environment

Background and context...

I'm intending to develop something based around a small
Xylinx Zynq device. Cost is an issue, but not to the
extent that I will be developing a board containing
the FPGA itself. I will, however, be developing a small
simple add-on board containing my analogue circuits.

Now I can read a datasheet and schematic and outline
to determine the extent to which a board is suitable.
However, as we are all aware, those documents /don't/
cover all the important points when choosing a board!

I've created many stand-alone hardware and software
embedded systems, but *not* based on linux *nor* on ARM
*nor* in the Xilinx ecosystem. Since Zynq devices
represent a complex environment, I'll have a learning
curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested
in the quality of the resources and support that
I'll need to overcome my misapprehensions.

You are taking a risk in basing a product on a development board - they
aren't sold with that in mind and the suppliers don't see long term
availability as part of the deal. There are quite a lot of boards based
on the Zynq around - eg: Mars ZX3- Zynq-7000 SO-DIMM module (which I
have not used and don't recommend o not recommend.)
You should be able to find a board with long term support and actually
intended for OEM supply.

Michael Kellett

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/10/13 09:31, MK wrote:

You are taking a risk in basing a product on a development board - they aren't sold with that in mind and the suppliers don't see long term availability as part of the deal. There are quite a lot of
boards based on the Zynq around - eg: Mars ZX3- Zynq-7000 SO-DIMM module (which I have not used and don't recommend o not recommend.)
You should be able to find a board with long term support and actually intended for OEM supply.

Thanks. Your points are well noted. Fortunately it
isn't actually for a product, only a prototype.

My concern is that I want/need decent documentation
and/or community support - and that might not be
there with a board that only has a very short
production life.

Fundamentally I want to grab my data, process it
and display it. I don't want to become an expert
in creating a linux for board Munge v0.9 using
tool Frobnatz v123.456!

Hence my questions about /which/ suppliers/toolsets
that people have found to be "reliable" by
the above definition.

 

[Antti]

Hi

I work for a company where we have not discontinued any of our FPGA modules, we are offering them as long the parts are available, module lifetimes 10+years.

https://wiki.trenz-electronic.de/display/TE0720/Overview

It is pretty standard zynq linux ready board.
Marvell PHY, SMSC USB all standard.
We do support our customers, also prototype level users.

It is maybe not visible on the website, but we have put a lot of effort into zynq development

https://wiki.trenz-electronic.de/display/TE0720/ARM+DS-5

this is how to debug and profile linux app on our board with free tools from ARM

I was surprised how painless that was. just write hello.c connect ETH cable and download run and profile it on zynq.


br
Antti Lukats




On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:47 AM UTC+2, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 17/10/13 09:31, MK wrote:

You are taking a risk in basing a product on a development board - they aren't sold with that in mind and the suppliers don't see long term availability as part of the deal. There are quite a lot of

boards based on the Zynq around - eg: Mars ZX3- Zynq-7000 SO-DIMM module (which I have not used and don't recommend o not recommend.)

You should be able to find a board with long term support and actually intended for OEM supply.



Thanks. Your points are well noted. Fortunately it

isn't actually for a product, only a prototype.



My concern is that I want/need decent documentation

and/or community support - and that might not be

there with a board that only has a very short

production life.



Fundamentally I want to grab my data, process it

and display it. I don't want to become an expert

in creating a linux for board Munge v0.9 using

tool Frobnatz v123.456!



Hence my questions about /which/ suppliers/toolsets

that people have found to be "reliable" by

the above definition.

 

[Paul Rubin]

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

Since Zynq devices represent a complex environment, I'll have a
learning curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested in the
quality of the resources and support that I'll need to overcome my
misapprehensions.

I can't suggest any specific boards, but http://blog.elphel.com might be
of some interest. Its last few entries are about a Zynq-based project.
Maybe posting to the blog's comment section will get some suggestions.

 

[Tom Gardner]

Thank you for your pointer.

I have already bookmarked Trenz since I had seen a good
range of products there. The range looks like a justification
for your useful comment about modules' longevity.

I will dig around in the wiki to have a look at how the
tools would enable me to extend a helloworld.c program
to one that peeks/pokes my specific programmable logic
and also communicates over ethernet.



On 17/10/13 19:31, Antti wrote:

Hi

I work for a company where we have not discontinued any of our FPGA modules, we are offering them as long the parts are available, module lifetimes 10+years.

https://wiki.trenz-electronic.de/display/TE0720/Overview

It is pretty standard zynq linux ready board.
Marvell PHY, SMSC USB all standard.
We do support our customers, also prototype level users.

It is maybe not visible on the website, but we have put a lot of effort into zynq development

https://wiki.trenz-electronic.de/display/TE0720/ARM+DS-5

this is how to debug and profile linux app on our board with free tools from ARM

I was surprised how painless that was. just write hello.c connect ETH cable and download run and profile it on zynq.


br
Antti Lukats




On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:47 AM UTC+2, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 17/10/13 09:31, MK wrote:

You are taking a risk in basing a product on a development board - they aren't sold with that in mind and the suppliers don't see long term availability as part of the deal. There are quite a lot of

boards based on the Zynq around - eg: Mars ZX3- Zynq-7000 SO-DIMM module (which I have not used and don't recommend o not recommend.)

You should be able to find a board with long term support and actually intended for OEM supply.



Thanks. Your points are well noted. Fortunately it

isn't actually for a product, only a prototype.



My concern is that I want/need decent documentation

and/or community support - and that might not be

there with a board that only has a very short

production life.



Fundamentally I want to grab my data, process it

and display it. I don't want to become an expert

in creating a linux for board Munge v0.9 using

tool Frobnatz v123.456!



Hence my questions about /which/ suppliers/toolsets

that people have found to be "reliable" by

the above definition.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/10/13 19:59, Paul Rubin wrote:

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
Since Zynq devices represent a complex environment, I'll have a
learning curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested in the
quality of the resources and support that I'll need to overcome my
misapprehensions.

I can't suggest any specific boards, but http://blog.elphel.com might be
of some interest. Its last few entries are about a Zynq-based project.
Maybe posting to the blog's comment section will get some suggestions.

Thanks for the pointer. Bookmarked.

A quick scan indicates some points that I don't feel are
relevant to me, and some which may or may not be once I've
read them more carefully.

 

[Antti]

Hi Tom,

we are working several projects that transfer data from ADC/DAC over ethernet.

In on case we converted existint application from Spartan6 to Zynq in a week, this included IP conversion and rewrite of C programs from baremetal to linux.

Antti



On Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:18:26 PM UTC+2, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 17/10/13 19:59, Paul Rubin wrote:

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

Since Zynq devices represent a complex environment, I'll have a

learning curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested in the

quality of the resources and support that I'll need to overcome my

misapprehensions.



I can't suggest any specific boards, but http://blog.elphel.com might be

of some interest. Its last few entries are about a Zynq-based project.

Maybe posting to the blog's comment section will get some suggestions.



Thanks for the pointer. Bookmarked.



A quick scan indicates some points that I don't feel are

relevant to me, and some which may or may not be once I've

read them more carefully.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/10/13 19:59, Paul Rubin wrote:

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
Since Zynq devices represent a complex environment, I'll have a
learning curve (good, I like challenges), and I'm interested in the
quality of the resources and support that I'll need to overcome my
misapprehensions.

I can't suggest any specific boards, but http://blog.elphel.com might be
of some interest. Its last few entries are about a Zynq-based project.
Maybe posting to the blog's comment section will get some suggestions.

I've now had a more detailed look, and my initial comments
are unchanged.

Overall the October 2 entry (FPGA is for freedom) comes across
as a bit of a rant, but it does contain useful information.

The "uploads your design to Xilinx" for the zero cost toolset
is, of course, less than desirable. It is a valid way of filtering
out the commercial business from the free hobbyist sectors.

The claimed limitations of the software wizard for generating
the memory interface is not good news -- and is just the kind
of information I was hoping to elicit with my question. I would
be curious to know whether or not the tool accurately reflects
the silicon's capabilities.

The "DLL hell" (or linux equivalent!) is also bad news. Not
sure what the solution would be if I suffered the same problem.
Fortunately I have a newly-installed Xubuntu LTS, so it /ought/
to minimise the chance!

FSBL proprietary binary blob. I don't care if it is proprietary,
/provided/ it works correctly. To me it is merely an extension
of the config bitmap

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/10/13 09:31, MK wrote:

There are quite a lot of
boards based on the Zynq around - eg: Mars ZX3- Zynq-7000 SO-DIMM module (which I have not used and don't recommend o not recommend.)

Enclustra's attitude of "we'll show you this
documentation only /after/ you've become a customer"
doesn't endear them to me. But that's their
commercial decision.

They may be very good, but I would like to be able
to evaluate that for myself! Shame.

 

[Jon Elson]

Frank Buss wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards. Avnet and Digilent
are front-runners, but any info/opinions about other
suppliers would be helpful too.

If you don't need it now, you might take a look at the Parallella board:

I know it doesn't have an FPGA, but if you need to add a board
to it for the outer interface, you should check out the Beagle
Board Black. It has amazing capability and LOTS of varied I/O
pins, for $45! Runs a complete Linux system, but can be used
"headless" (ie. no screen) easily. Your added board can have
an FPGA or CPLD on it, if you are designing a board already,
it is quite easy if you won't be running at high clock speeds.
I do a bunch of CPLD and FPGA boards with only 2-sided PCBs.
I have even run Spartan 3A and 3AN FPGAs on 2-sided boards
with no trouble.

Jon

 

[Paul Rubin]

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards.

Do you know anything about the microzed? I just heard of it, and it
looks interesting:

http://microzed.org
http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-sbc-runs-linux-on-xilinx-zynq-arm-fpga/

Also the Zybo:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ZYBO

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 20/10/13 03:02, Paul Rubin wrote:

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards.

Do you know anything about the microzed? I just heard of it, and it
looks interesting:

http://microzed.org
http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-sbc-runs-linux-on-xilinx-zynq-arm-fpga/

Also the Zybo:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ZYBO

They do indeed look interesting for my purposes, but I only
know what I can read on the web.

So, we would /both/ like some info about the suppliers

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:47:57 +0100, Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

On 20/10/13 03:02, Paul Rubin wrote:
Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards.

Do you know anything about the microzed? I just heard of it, and it
looks interesting:

http://microzed.org
http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-sbc-runs-linux-on-xilinx-zynq-arm-fpga/

Also the Zybo:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ZYBO

They do indeed look interesting for my purposes, but I only
know what I can read on the web.

So, we would /both/ like some info about the suppliers

We're just starting on a uZed signal-processing project. It will be a uZed
plugged into a motherboard that has power, clock, signal input and output
networks, ADC, DAC, connectors, and miscellaneous stuff. We bought two uZed
boards from Avnet and they power up running Linux. My programmer and FPGA guys
are just now learning how to write a C app that interacts with the FPGA, but the
documentation seems good and they are making good progress. I'll be doing the
architecture and designing the hardware.

I took some pictures. The ones in the ZED documentation are mediocre.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Top.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Bottom.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_End.JPG



--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 11/11/13 03:08, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:47:57 +0100, Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:

On 20/10/13 03:02, Paul Rubin wrote:
Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards.

Do you know anything about the microzed? I just heard of it, and it
looks interesting:

http://microzed.org
http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-sbc-runs-linux-on-xilinx-zynq-arm-fpga/

Also the Zybo:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ZYBO

They do indeed look interesting for my purposes, but I only
know what I can read on the web.

So, we would /both/ like some info about the suppliers



We're just starting on a uZed signal-processing project. It will be a uZed
plugged into a motherboard that has power, clock, signal input and output
networks, ADC, DAC, connectors, and miscellaneous stuff. We bought two uZed
boards from Avnet and they power up running Linux. My programmer and FPGA guys
are just now learning how to write a C app that interacts with the FPGA, but the
documentation seems good and they are making good progress. I'll be doing the
architecture and designing the hardware.

I took some pictures. The ones in the ZED documentation are mediocre.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Top.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Bottom.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_End.JPG

Thanks, that's useful, and I will be *most* interested to hear how
it goes.

Out of curiosity, how long ago did you buy them and how long did
they take to materialise? Currently Avnet are showing no stock
and 5 weeks lead time.

Worryingly, it has been "5 weeks" for the past 3 weeks - so I'm
concerned that Avnet have "lost interest" in the board. Any info
about Avnet's support practices would be useful.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:28:24 +0000, Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

On 11/11/13 03:08, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:47:57 +0100, Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:

On 20/10/13 03:02, Paul Rubin wrote:
Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
I'd like to pick people's brains about aspects of
different *suppliers* of Zynq boards.

Do you know anything about the microzed? I just heard of it, and it
looks interesting:

http://microzed.org
http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-sbc-runs-linux-on-xilinx-zynq-arm-fpga/

Also the Zybo:

http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=ZYBO

They do indeed look interesting for my purposes, but I only
know what I can read on the web.

So, we would /both/ like some info about the suppliers



We're just starting on a uZed signal-processing project. It will be a uZed
plugged into a motherboard that has power, clock, signal input and output
networks, ADC, DAC, connectors, and miscellaneous stuff. We bought two uZed
boards from Avnet and they power up running Linux. My programmer and FPGA guys
are just now learning how to write a C app that interacts with the FPGA, but the
documentation seems good and they are making good progress. I'll be doing the
architecture and designing the hardware.

I took some pictures. The ones in the ZED documentation are mediocre.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Top.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_Bottom.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Micro_Zed_End.JPG

Thanks, that's useful, and I will be *most* interested to hear how
it goes.

Out of curiosity, how long ago did you buy them and how long did
they take to materialise? Currently Avnet are showing no stock
and 5 weeks lead time.

Worryingly, it has been "5 weeks" for the past 3 weeks - so I'm
concerned that Avnet have "lost interest" in the board. Any info
about Avnet's support practices would be useful.

It took about a week to get two, several weeks ago. They can probably find some
for good customers. We buy a lot of stuff from them, and it was "get us a couple
and we'll design them in."

The good part is that the design, including Gerbers, is fully public, so we (or
someone) can build them if we have to. It will save us a ton of time, as
compared to doing all that pcb-layout/flash/dram/ethernet/power supply/software
stuff ourselves.

I hope they are serious about it. They have sure invested a lot so far.

The carrier/demo board is apparently not real yet. We'll have our own
application board first, with spare room, so we'll add in some development hooks
for future projects. Suggestions are welcome....

Mictor connector for a logic analyzer
Pots for the ADC inputs
A few SMB connectors for scope trigger/signal snooping
Shunts to measure Vcc and bank currents
Easy ways to vary iobank voltages
Dip switches and LEDs
Temperature sensor IC
Clock oscillators


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

 

[Mike Ng]

On Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28:24 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:

Out of curiosity, how long ago did you buy them and how long did
they take to materialise? Currently Avnet are showing no stock
and 5 weeks lead time.

Worryingly, it has been "5 weeks" for the past 3 weeks - so I'm
concerned that Avnet have "lost interest" in the board. Any info
about Avnet's support practices would be useful.

I ordered one mid-September when the leadtime was "1 week". That sounded a little suspicious so I went to web chat support and got "4 weeks" as the real leadtime.

It does sound like they're preparing a new rev.