XPLA3 vs. MAX3000A

C

chris_s

Guest
I know this is an FPGA news group, and my question is about CPLDs, but there
did not seem to be a CPLD news group! So here goes...

I am comparing these two families. Going to pick one of the two for a bunch
of new designs. After comparing the features, the XPLA3 seem to be much
better bang for the buck compared to the MAX3000. Price seems to be equal,
but on a feature basis the XPLA3 is significantly better.

However, Xilinx cut the XPLA1 and XPLA2 lines. My fear is that the same
could happen to XPLA3. The Altera folks tell me that Altera/MAX has huge
market share and focus in CPLDs, while CPLDs only account for 10% of Xilinx
business.

Any comments? Do you think the XPLA3 parts are gonna stay in production
over the long haul?

Thanks, Chris.
 
chris_s wrote:
I know this is an FPGA news group, and my question is about CPLDs, but there
did not seem to be a CPLD news group! So here goes...

I am comparing these two families. Going to pick one of the two for a bunch
of new designs. After comparing the features, the XPLA3 seem to be much
better bang for the buck compared to the MAX3000. Price seems to be equal,
but on a feature basis the XPLA3 is significantly better.

However, Xilinx cut the XPLA1 and XPLA2 lines. My fear is that the same
could happen to XPLA3. The Altera folks tell me that Altera/MAX has huge
market share and focus in CPLDs, while CPLDs only account for 10% of Xilinx
business.

Any comments? Do you think the XPLA3 parts are gonna stay in production
over the long haul?
Click to expand...
I'd also look at the Atmel ATF15xx, and Lattice ispMAX4000 families.
Altera may have the largest CPLD chunk, but they have not done much
in an Architectural sense, and their Icc is quite high.

Xilinx have the newer XC2 in front of the XPLA3, so you could
spin a design, and check the FIT in both families.

With Atmel, Lattice and Xilinx all offering low static Icc CPLDs,
Altera are looking a tad dated.

-jg
 
So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera.

I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why
I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread
use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.

The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE
here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know
MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just
don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.

Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market
share.

My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V).

The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It
will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing
their parts are current hogs.

Xilinx says that they also have a new CR (2.5V) part coming out, but it will
probably replace the XC2 line, not XPLA3. They say XPLA3 is not going to be
obsolete.

Does not sound like either of you are using the XPLA3. That concerns me.

Chris.
 
So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera.

I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why
I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread
use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.

The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE
here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know
MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just
don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.

Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market
share.
Click to expand...
Hi gang - sorry for the marketing blitz below :)

Hi Chris -
Lattice has over 40% marketshare in CPLD, ALtera has over 40% market share in
CPLD, Xilinx is ~10% in CPLD. Lattice has obsoleted very few of the CPLD
device families introduced over the past 11 years ( some older MACH devices
from the Vantis acquisition, mainly). Lattice offers multiple different
architectures in CPLD, from 32 macrocells to 1024 macrocells, in 1.8v, 2.5v
,3.3v, and 5v. I would strongly recommend Lattice at least be given a close
look.(of course I am a bit biased :) )
I am not sure where "nospam.com" is located, but I am willing to bet we have
resources neardby! A local FAE would be happy to talk with you.

Our downloadable LEVER3 starter software includes Synplicity for VHDL/VERILOG
synthesis, ABEL and Schematic capture, funtcional and timing simulation.
Supports all product families.

Michael Thomas
LSC SFAE
New York/New Jersey
631-874-4968 fax 631-874-4977
michael.thomas@latticesemi.com
for the latest info on Lattice products - http://www.latticesemi.com
LATTICE - BRINGING THE BEST TOGETHER
 
Chris_S <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
: So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera.

: I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why
: I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread
: use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.

: The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE
: here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know
: MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just
: don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.

: Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market
: share.

: My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V).

....

XC2 (Coolrunner II) is 3.3 Volt in and out, if you provide that IO voltage.

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
 
Chris_S wrote:
So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera.

I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's why
I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread
use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.
Click to expand...
Wow, you don't ask for much. I suggest that you check around and see
how many PLDs, other than the 20V10s or smaller, have been available for
10 years. I expect you will not find one! This is just not the way of
very many semiconductors.


The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE
here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know
MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I just
don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.
Click to expand...
There are plenty enough to keep the family in production for a normal
lifetime of 5 or 6 years.


Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little market
share.
Click to expand...
You should take another look at both Atmel and Lattice. Don't go by
some silly number like "market share". Check out the longevity of the
parts they made 5 or more years ago.


My requirement is full 3.3V in and out. So XC2 is no good (2.5V).
Click to expand...
If you are talking about power supply, then you can't use *any* of the
newer parts. If you are talking about IO standards, then you can use
LVTTL with nearly *any* family out there.


The Altera people told me that a new CPLD family is coming out soon. It
will be lower power. Sounds like Altera has gotten very sick of hearing
their parts are current hogs.
Click to expand...
Did they give you a schedule by any chance? If they don't have a
schedule then you shouldn't expect it within the year. Oh, yeah, don't
expect it to be 5 volt tolerant. If you only need LVTTL, then you
should be ok, but all newer devices are 5 volt phobic.


Xilinx says that they also have a new CR (2.5V) part coming out, but it will
probably replace the XC2 line, not XPLA3. They say XPLA3 is not going to be
obsolete.
Click to expand...
I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It
is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and
no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line?


Does not sound like either of you are using the XPLA3. That concerns me.

Chris.
Click to expand...
--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
 
Hey, a Lattice guy.

What you say makes a lot of sense, and the market share numbers are
interesting. Yes, I am in Portland right by you. I'll give the rep a call.
You are right I should probably take a look at Lattice before I decide.
They are the 3rd big player.

Thanks, Chris.


"Mikeandmax" <mikeandmax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030703100942.13330.00000034@mb-m13.aol.com...
So both of you are suggesting going a different direction than Altera.

I have been burned twice before by prog logic parts going away. That's
why
I am only going to consider designing in something that is in widespread
use - either Altera or Xilinix. Its got to be around for >10 years.

The Xilinx XPLA3 are better parts than the MAX3000. Even the Altera FAE
here admits it. But are they going to be around in the future? I know
MAX3000 will be around because there are tons of people using them. I
just
don't know how many XPLA3 are in use.

Won't touch Atmel, Lattice or anything else. Too risky, too little
market
share.


Hi gang - sorry for the marketing blitz below :)

Hi Chris -
Lattice has over 40% marketshare in CPLD, ALtera has over 40% market share
in
CPLD, Xilinx is ~10% in CPLD. Lattice has obsoleted very few of the CPLD
device families introduced over the past 11 years ( some older MACH
devices
from the Vantis acquisition, mainly). Lattice offers multiple different
architectures in CPLD, from 32 macrocells to 1024 macrocells, in 1.8v,
2.5v
,3.3v, and 5v. I would strongly recommend Lattice at least be given a
close
look.(of course I am a bit biased :) )
I am not sure where "nospam.com" is located, but I am willing to bet we
have
resources neardby! A local FAE would be happy to talk with you.

Our downloadable LEVER3 starter software includes Synplicity for
VHDL/VERILOG
synthesis, ABEL and Schematic capture, funtcional and timing simulation.
Supports all product families.

Michael Thomas
LSC SFAE
New York/New Jersey
631-874-4968 fax 631-874-4977
michael.thomas@latticesemi.com
for the latest info on Lattice products - http://www.latticesemi.com
LATTICE - BRINGING THE BEST TOGETHER
Click to expand...
 
Chris_S <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
:> XC2 (Coolrunner II) is 3.3 Volt in and out, if you provide that IO
: voltage.

: Yeh I guess you are right, but not with a single supply of course. I would
: have to add regulators everywhere for the 1.8V cores and that might become a
: pain.

A small SOT23 regulator fits nicely below the Coolrunner (Coolrunner on top,
regulator on botton). So no need for an extra supply layer. XC2C is not
sensitive to power sequencing, so no problem their neither. The Xetex XC6204
goes for about 0.77 EuroCent at Farnell.

: Based on what the FAE told me the CR2 may go away. Apparently what they are
: coming out with next will be the successor to that family. Don't know if
: the pinouts will change.

Even XC95XV(L) and XC2C have very similar pinout.

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
 
I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It
is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and
no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line?
Click to expand...
The FAE told me that the next CR, say CR-III, will be very low voltage again
like 1.5 or 1.8. That would certainly not be a replacement for the XPLA3
family since it is 3.3V. It is far more likely it would replace the CR-II
family. At least that's what the Xilinx FAE thought.

Chris.
 
chris_s wrote:
I very seriously doubt that Xilinx is going to replace the XC2 line. It
is not very old at all. The XPLA3 line is 5 volt tolerant (sort of) and
no new process can replace that. Where did you hear this new line?

The FAE told me that the next CR, say CR-III, will be very low voltage again
like 1.5 or 1.8. That would certainly not be a replacement for the XPLA3
family since it is 3.3V. It is far more likely it would replace the CR-II
family. At least that's what the Xilinx FAE thought.
Click to expand...
Perhaps "replace" is a poor word to use here. None of these families
"replace" another. They will still make the older family and the new
one will never fill the same socket since it uses a different voltage.

But I seriously doubt that Xilinx is spending a lot of time or effort on
updating the CR2 family since they are really still shiny new. This may
be something in the works, but I doubt that you will hear it announced
for 6 months or more and chips are not likely for a year.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
 
chris_s wrote:
I'm looking through the Lattice stuff right now. Which family would be the
equiv for the XPLA3?
They have quite a few families.

Chris.
Click to expand...
Take a look at the LC4000. They are 1.8 volt core, but come in several
versions with internal LDOs to allow operation at other voltages. The
ZC (or CZ) version with no LDO is the ultra low power one.

If you don't need ultra low power, but need a larger part at a decent
price check out the LC5512Mx. Again this is 1.8 volt (MC) internal core
with 2.5 (MB) and 3.3 (MV) volt versions available. They quoted me
(after some beating about the head and shoulders) a *much* better price
than the Xilinx parts.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
 
I'm looking through the Lattice stuff right now. Which family would be the
equiv for the XPLA3?
They have quite a few families.

Chris.
 
jesse jenkins wrote:
snip
CoolRunner-II incorporates aspects of both the XPLA3 family and the
XC9500 family, in a 1.8V core technology (read: 0.18 micron).
I saw some concern about discontinuing CoolRunner-II, which is absurd.
It was just released in the last few months to full production and
cost Xilinx multi millions of dollars to create. To date, the XC9500 family
and its 3.3V XC9500XL, and 2.5V XC9500XV family are all alive
and doing very well! The low power XPLA3 and CoolRunner-II family
are also doing very well. If you have any doubts, you can start opening
up various PDAs, cellphones and digital cameras and see them in there!
snip
Click to expand...

Do you have any comments on Chris's mention (FAE attributed IIRC)
that there is a new Coolrunner soon to replace the CR2 ?
- or is it more a complementary family, like the lattice 4000/5000
series ?
- or just an urban myth ?
-jg
 
I have a problem with the word:" replace".
When your wife has a second baby, that does not replace your firstborn.
It may now get its undue share of attention, but the old one is still
going to be around and be loved and be useful..
In a previous post I explained the different aspects of obsolescence.
Yes, we are always working on new products that somehow are so much
better (or cheaper) that they supplant the older parts for new designs,
but in our product line-up hardly anything is ever being "replaced."
Old PLDs never die, they just fade into obsolescence.

Peter Alfke
==============
Jim Granville wrote:
Do you have any comments on Chris's mention (FAE attributed IIRC)
that there is a new Coolrunner soon to replace the CR2 ?
- or is it more a complementary family, like the lattice 4000/5000
series ?
- or just an urban myth ?
-jg
Click to expand...
 
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