Xilinx legacy situation

[Tim Forcer]

We have some well-established teaching laboratory kit, using
Xilinx XC4013E (optionally XC4020E for project work), with
download by JTAG and a clone of Xilinx Parallel Cable III
(DLC5).

As has been discussed here before, despite some statements on
Xilinx Website, the latest (full-spec) Xilinx software includes
an iMPACT downloader which doesn't support Parallel Cable III.
Alternatively, latest Webpack 6 includes an iMPACT which
supports the download, but not any flavour of XC4000 (although
all the library and similar files seem to be present).

Options appear to be:

1) A kludge whereby we instal only iMPACT from Wepack 6, to get
the downloading but with no integration into Project Navigator /
Design Manager (so we lose revision control's updating of where
to get the .bit file from). (This is what we're doing at the
moment - not brilliant, but it does work.)

2) Someone spends time messing around to produce a collection of
batch files which provide equivalent P&R function to Project
Navigator.

Suggestions welcome - including suggestions for alternative
hardware. We need to retain 5V-compatible I/O, since all our
kit uses 5V levels for I/O, and much of the work involves
interfacing with other bits of kit. We've also spent quite a
bit of money on the XC4k ICs - total of 25 pin grid array chips,
which were hideously expensive - and we'd like to get a decent
return on this investment.

(In case it is considered relevant: workstations are networked
PCs with Windows XP Pro, rest of development environment is
ModelSim and Synplify. Students work in pairs, 12 pairs at a
time in a class.)

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[Peter Alfke]

Tim, you have to get over the idea of still getting something from your
old chip investment. Xilinx FPGAs have become 100 times (!) cheaper,
have added functionality and better software support since the days when
you bought the XC4013s. ( Anybody who tries to hang on to a 10-year old
computer faces a similar situation, albeit to a lesser extent).
That's the price of progress.

Your biggest stumbling block is the 5-V compatibility, which stops you
from using really modern (and cost-effective and sophisticated )
devices. Sooner or later you will curse the @#^%$*! 5-V standard. Why
not do it now!

Peter Alfke
============================
Tim Forcer wrote:

We have some well-established teaching laboratory kit, using
Xilinx XC4013E (optionally XC4020E for project work), with
download by JTAG and a clone of Xilinx Parallel Cable III
(DLC5).

As has been discussed here before, despite some statements on
Xilinx Website, the latest (full-spec) Xilinx software includes
an iMPACT downloader which doesn't support Parallel Cable III.
Alternatively, latest Webpack 6 includes an iMPACT which
supports the download, but not any flavour of XC4000 (although
all the library and similar files seem to be present).

Options appear to be:

1) A kludge whereby we instal only iMPACT from Wepack 6, to get
the downloading but with no integration into Project Navigator /
Design Manager (so we lose revision control's updating of where
to get the .bit file from). (This is what we're doing at the
moment - not brilliant, but it does work.)

2) Someone spends time messing around to produce a collection of
batch files which provide equivalent P&R function to Project
Navigator.

Suggestions welcome - including suggestions for alternative
hardware. We need to retain 5V-compatible I/O, since all our
kit uses 5V levels for I/O, and much of the work involves
interfacing with other bits of kit. We've also spent quite a
bit of money on the XC4k ICs - total of 25 pin grid array chips,
which were hideously expensive - and we'd like to get a decent
return on this investment.

(In case it is considered relevant: workstations are networked
PCs with Windows XP Pro, rest of development environment is
ModelSim and Synplify. Students work in pairs, 12 pairs at a
time in a class.)

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[Steve Lass]

Tim,

The ISE Classics software
<http://www.xilinx.com/ise_classics/index.html> supports the XC4000E
devices. I'm not sure it includes
iMPACT, but it does include JTAG Programmer software for downloading.

Even though ISE 6.1i does not support design of XC4000E devices, it does
allow
you to program them with iMPACT.

Steve

Tim Forcer wrote:

We have some well-established teaching laboratory kit, using
Xilinx XC4013E (optionally XC4020E for project work), with
download by JTAG and a clone of Xilinx Parallel Cable III
(DLC5).

As has been discussed here before, despite some statements on
Xilinx Website, the latest (full-spec) Xilinx software includes
an iMPACT downloader which doesn't support Parallel Cable III.
Alternatively, latest Webpack 6 includes an iMPACT which
supports the download, but not any flavour of XC4000 (although
all the library and similar files seem to be present).

Options appear to be:

1) A kludge whereby we instal only iMPACT from Wepack 6, to get
the downloading but with no integration into Project Navigator /
Design Manager (so we lose revision control's updating of where
to get the .bit file from). (This is what we're doing at the
moment - not brilliant, but it does work.)

2) Someone spends time messing around to produce a collection of
batch files which provide equivalent P&R function to Project
Navigator.

Suggestions welcome - including suggestions for alternative
hardware. We need to retain 5V-compatible I/O, since all our
kit uses 5V levels for I/O, and much of the work involves
interfacing with other bits of kit. We've also spent quite a
bit of money on the XC4k ICs - total of 25 pin grid array chips,
which were hideously expensive - and we'd like to get a decent
return on this investment.

(In case it is considered relevant: workstations are networked
PCs with Windows XP Pro, rest of development environment is
ModelSim and Synplify. Students work in pairs, 12 pairs at a
time in a class.)

 

[Neil Glenn Jacobson]

Tim,

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has supported and does
support download via Parallel Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration of legacy devices.

Note that new design bitstreams can only be generated with the ISE
Classics Software.



Tim Forcer wrote:

We have some well-established teaching laboratory kit, using
Xilinx XC4013E (optionally XC4020E for project work), with
download by JTAG and a clone of Xilinx Parallel Cable III
(DLC5).

As has been discussed here before, despite some statements on
Xilinx Website, the latest (full-spec) Xilinx software includes
an iMPACT downloader which doesn't support Parallel Cable III.
Alternatively, latest Webpack 6 includes an iMPACT which
supports the download, but not any flavour of XC4000 (although
all the library and similar files seem to be present).

Options appear to be:

1) A kludge whereby we instal only iMPACT from Wepack 6, to get
the downloading but with no integration into Project Navigator /
Design Manager (so we lose revision control's updating of where
to get the .bit file from). (This is what we're doing at the
moment - not brilliant, but it does work.)

2) Someone spends time messing around to produce a collection of
batch files which provide equivalent P&R function to Project
Navigator.

Suggestions welcome - including suggestions for alternative
hardware. We need to retain 5V-compatible I/O, since all our
kit uses 5V levels for I/O, and much of the work involves
interfacing with other bits of kit. We've also spent quite a
bit of money on the XC4k ICs - total of 25 pin grid array chips,
which were hideously expensive - and we'd like to get a decent
return on this investment.

(In case it is considered relevant: workstations are networked
PCs with Windows XP Pro, rest of development environment is
ModelSim and Synplify. Students work in pairs, 12 pairs at a
time in a class.)

 

[Tim Forcer]

Peter Alfke top-posted:

Tim, you have to get over the idea of still
getting something from your old chip investment.
Xilinx FPGAs have become 100 times (!) cheaper,
have added functionality and better software
support since the days when you bought the
XC4013s.

It's not the chip investment that's the *big* hangup, but the
equipment investment. The chips were chosen deliberately in
pin-grid-array package so we could replace as and when we wanted
- including when/if they got blown up by misuse. Throw-away ICs
we can live with - even at the price of PGA 4013s. Throw-away
experimental units is another ball game.

( Anybody who tries to hang on to a 10-year old
computer faces a similar situation, albeit to
a lesser extent). That's the price of progress.

Hmmm. Doesn't explain why the majority of PC/104 processors are
486 clones rather than Pentium clones. Doesn't explain why
8051s still sell by the truck-load. Sure, we have to stay
current, but we've done some very useful work with 10-year-old
computers! (Old DOS boxes make excellent targets for
introductory learning about embedded systems, provided you don't
mind the bench space they occupy.)

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Some concepts can be taught
using kit that's a lot more than ten years old. We have one
experiment that uses equipment which must be around 25 years
old, and part of the point is to show that important effects,
very relevant to designing the latest and greatest ICs and
systems, can be seen with basic testgear and almost rudimentary
test rigs.

If we can teach _currently relevant_ techniques of FPGA design
with ten-year-old kit (and the FPGA experimenter kits are only 3
years old), why should we have to throw the baby out with the
bathwater? If the DESIGN software still supports XC4000E, why
has the downloader stopped supporting a download cable which was
still being sold only a couple of years ago? If the library
files are still there, why can't the software be set up to
access them? (After all, the guts of the software isn't the
Windows front end with the selection boxes - or have I
misunderstood all those command lines scrolling through, which
appear to show someone using 10-year-old DOS to do the hard work
rather than shiny state-of-the-art Windows?)

Your biggest stumbling block is the 5-V
compatibility, which stops you from using
really modern (and cost-effective and
sophisticated )

Look, these are STUDENTS. Second year undergraduates. Some of
them only got their hands on an oscilloscope for the first time
just over a year ago. Some only SAW an oscilloscope for the
first time thirteen months ago. They are designing simple state
machines and the like. The prime exercise culminates in
controlling a three-storey model lift. That could be done by a
Xilinx 1000 series device. For the PURPOSE, we don't need
modern, we don't need sophisticated, and spending money when we
have something already is certainly not cost-effective. We're
NOT designing for production - where we have project students
and researchers pushing boundaries, of course we use
state-of-the-art. But at the moment we find 5V 74 series great
for teaching gates and discrete logic systems, so we have a
range of 5V I/O units which those systems can work with. And,
to benefit both us and the students, we re-use those units.
Students produce traffic light controllers using 74-series
logic, using a PLD, using a PIC. They control a lift with an
FPGA and with a PC/104 system. We're trying to turn out rounded
engineers, who understand there are options when confronted with
a requirement. Options come with baggage. Later in the course,
they learn of the baggage which comes with picking a 5V option.
But up to second year, we're happy for them to swim in a
uniformly 5V digital environment.

devices. Sooner or later you will curse the
@#^%$*! 5-V standard.

5V has lasted longer than any other. All subsequent standards
have been superseded - today's standard will be unusable by the
state-of-the-art ICs in three years.

If we'd gone 3.3V, would we not be cursing THAT?

Why not do it now!

Because we teach a LOT more than just FPGA. Believe me, we look
at the voltage issue every year. So far, we've had insufficient
cause to decide that we'll throw out and re-cast the 21
exercises per student occupying 32 lab sessions over two years
of the course which use 5V circuitry.

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[Jim Granville]

"Tim Forcer" wrote
<snip many valid points>

If we can teach _currently relevant_ techniques of FPGA design
with ten-year-old kit (and the FPGA experimenter kits are only 3
years old), why should we have to throw the baby out with the
bathwater? If the DESIGN software still supports XC4000E, why
has the downloader stopped supporting a download cable which was
still being sold only a couple of years ago? If the library
files are still there, why can't the software be set up to
access them? (After all, the guts of the software isn't the
Windows front end with the selection boxes - or have I
misunderstood all those command lines scrolling through, which
appear to show someone using 10-year-old DOS to do the hard work
rather than shiny state-of-the-art Windows?)

I think this reply clarified the cable issue ?
<paste>
"Neil Glenn Jacobson" <neil.jacobson@xilinx.com> wrote

Tim,

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has supported and does
support download via Parallel Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration of legacy devices.

Note that new design bitstreams can only be generated with the ISE
Classics Software.


devices. Sooner or later you will curse the
@#^%$*! 5-V standard.

5V has lasted longer than any other. All subsequent standards
have been superseded - today's standard will be unusable by the
state-of-the-art ICs in three years.

True, and 5V will still be around for a long time - Motorola, Lattice,
Atmel
have released 5V IO's on shrink devices.
There are signs of 5V becomming an Automotive IO standard,
for reasons very similar to Tim's LABs interconnection...

FPGAs are a bit of a special case - they rush ahead on process, in order
to get the density and speed up, and some details get left behind.

Still, there are signs of awareness - a Xilinx survey this week asked if
'5V IO was important in your design'.

Why not do it now!

Because we teach a LOT more than just FPGA. Believe me, we look
at the voltage issue every year. So far, we've had insufficient
cause to decide that we'll throw out and re-cast the 21
exercises per student occupying 32 lab sessions over two years
of the course which use 5V circuitry.

PowerMOSETS are another good argument for 5V drive ability....

-jg

 

[Tim Forcer]

Neil Glenn Jacobson wrote:

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has
supported and does support download via Parallel
Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration
of legacy devices.

Err, not the version embedded in Project Navigator. It scans
all the ports (USB, LPT1:n, COM1:n) looking for a compatible
cable. This takes quite a while. Then it stops and asks the
user to define the cable. Click "Parallel" and "lpt1" and it
says there's nothing there.

We think we're not unique in having this problem:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=%25Qjv7.59250%24y7.681072%40dbsch1.home.nl>.

We did try the various fixes suggested by
<http://support.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPagePath=15742>
- so far without success. What we've gone with for the time
being is Webpack iMPACT running stand-alone.

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[Karl Olsen]

Tim Forcer wrote:

Neil Glenn Jacobson wrote:

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has
supported and does support download via Parallel
Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration
of legacy devices.

Err, not the version embedded in Project Navigator. It scans
all the ports (USB, LPT1:n, COM1:n) looking for a compatible
cable. This takes quite a while. Then it stops and asks the
user to define the cable. Click "Parallel" and "lpt1" and it
says there's nothing there.

We think we're not unique in having this problem:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=%25Qjv7.59250%24y7.681072%40dbsch1.hom

e.nl>.

We did try the various fixes suggested by

http://support.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID

=1&getPagePath=15742>

- so far without success. What we've gone with for the time
being is Webpack iMPACT running stand-alone.

In my experience, Parallel Cable III only works with the port in SPP (old
fashioned unidirectional) mode, not EPP or ECP mode.

Karl Olsen

 

[Tim]

Tim Forcer wrote:

Peter Alfke top-posted:

Tim, you have to get over the idea of still
getting something from your old chip investment.
Xilinx FPGAs have become 100 times (!) cheaper,
have added functionality and better software
support since the days when you bought the
XC4013s.

It's not the chip investment that's the *big* hangup, but the
equipment investment. The chips were chosen deliberately in
pin-grid-array package so we could replace as and when we wanted
- including when/if they got blown up by misuse. Throw-away ICs
we can live with - even at the price of PGA 4013s. Throw-away
experimental units is another ball game.

I suspect your best compromise may be to select the latest
and greatest - in Xilinx' case, this is currently Spartan-3
- and have a tiny daughter board built with FPGA, regulator
and protection/interface chips.

Of course you would still have to address the issue of
updating all the course material, as Jonathan discussed
a month or so ago.

And you would have to repeat the exercise every five years
or so.

 

[Jonathan Bromley]

"Tim" <tim@rockylogic.com.nooospam.com> wrote in message
news:bpl8qr$mai$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...

I suspect your best compromise may be to select the latest
and greatest - in Xilinx' case, this is currently Spartan-3
- and have a tiny daughter board built with FPGA, regulator
and protection/interface chips.

I reckon this is a seriously good idea. It also allows
you (for future projects, of course!) to build a base-board
with all the human-scale I/O on it - big lights, switches
and connectors - using very low-tech, cheap PCB technology,
while still tapping in to as exotic an FPGA technology as
you wish, at modest cost. Finally, if you are careful about
how you partition the programming/download stuff between
base-board and FPGA carrier, you could make the base-board
compatible with many different types of FPGA/CPLD. This could
be pretty powerful stuff for teaching/project tools.

Of course you would still have to address the issue of
updating all the course material, as Jonathan discussed
a month or so ago.

Yes, but you could keep *lots* of commonality this way.

And you would have to repeat the exercise every five years
or so.

I guess so. But you could hide quite a lot of the change
from your "customers" (students, users) by carefully
"parameterising" the course materials so that specific
devices don't get mentioned too often!
--
Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Verification * Project Services

Doulos Ltd. Church Hatch, 22 Market Place, Ringwood, Hampshire, BH24 1AW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1425 471223 mail: jonathan.bromley@doulos.com
Fax: +44 (0)1425 471573 Web: http://www.doulos.com

The contents of this message may contain personal views which
are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

 

[Neil Glenn Jacobson]

Tim Forcer wrote:

Neil Glenn Jacobson wrote:

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has
supported and does support download via Parallel
Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration
of legacy devices.


Err, not the version embedded in Project Navigator. It scans
all the ports (USB, LPT1:n, COM1:n) looking for a compatible
cable. This takes quite a while. Then it stops and asks the
user to define the cable. Click "Parallel" and "lpt1" and it
says there's nothing there.

There are several issues worthy of note:

(1) You may have "old" Xilinx parallel port drivers installed on your
system that should be removed. With the release of 5.1i, a new version
of the parallel port drivers was included. There is no backward
compatibility between iMPACT pre-5.1i and post-5.1i

http://support.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPagePath=16494

(2) You are using a "clone" of Parallel Cable III not the "real deal".
We have seen situations in which the clones are not quite clones and
fail for a variety of PC-related reasons.

(3) You may need to set your BIOS to use the Bidirectional (rather than
ECP or EPP) mode for the parallel port.

We think we're not unique in having this problem:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=%25Qjv7.59250%24y7.681072%40dbsch1.home.nl>.

We did try the various fixes suggested by
http://support.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPagePath=15742
- so far without success. What we've gone with for the time
being is Webpack iMPACT running stand-alone.

 

[Eric Crabill]

Hi,

I recently went through the exercise of updating my material
from XSE 2.1i to XSE 4.2i. It was a lot of work, I will admit.
All of the schematic based projects needed to be converted into
Verilog. Plus new hardware (Spartan-IIE). Anyone who is doing
the same, or considering doing the same, please feel free to
borrow anything that helps you from my class website:

http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/crabill

Thanks,
Eric

Tim wrote:

Tim Forcer wrote:
Peter Alfke top-posted:

Tim, you have to get over the idea of still
getting something from your old chip investment.
Xilinx FPGAs have become 100 times (!) cheaper,
have added functionality and better software
support since the days when you bought the
XC4013s.

It's not the chip investment that's the *big* hangup, but the
equipment investment. The chips were chosen deliberately in
pin-grid-array package so we could replace as and when we wanted
- including when/if they got blown up by misuse. Throw-away ICs
we can live with - even at the price of PGA 4013s. Throw-away
experimental units is another ball game.

I suspect your best compromise may be to select the latest
and greatest - in Xilinx' case, this is currently Spartan-3
- and have a tiny daughter board built with FPGA, regulator
and protection/interface chips.

Of course you would still have to address the issue of
updating all the course material, as Jonathan discussed
a month or so ago.

And you would have to repeat the exercise every five years
or so.

 

[Tim Forcer]

Neil Glenn Jacobson wrote:

Tim Forcer wrote:

Neil Glenn Jacobson wrote:

iMPACT (all versions, full or WebPACK install) has
supported and does support download via Parallel
Cable III (in fact, I have one on my desk
and it works just fine) as well as configuration
of legacy devices.

Err, not the version embedded in Project Navigator.
...

There are several issues worthy of note:

(1) You may have "old" Xilinx parallel port drivers
...

http://support.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?iLanguageID=1&iCountryID=1&getPagePath=16494

Tried that - and some variants. No change.

(2) You are using a "clone" of Parallel Cable III not
the "real deal". We have seen situations in which the
clones are not quite clones and fail for a variety of
PC-related reasons.

No difference between clone circuitry and "real deal" hardware.

(3) You may need to set your BIOS to use the Bidirectional
(rather than ECP or EPP) mode for the parallel port.

Hmmm. Haven't tried this, but I'm reluctant to mess around in
this way, particularly as other parallel port stuff works OK (eg
Lattice ispVM downloader).

The first set of students do their first FPGA exercises today,
and we're using the kludge of Webpack iMPACT installation used
stand-alone. This works.

For the future, we're looking at Another Company's product.
Shame, as we have invested a lot in Xilinx over many years.
(That investment of time, effort and money would not have been
possible or had any point without substantial support from
Xilinx' University Program, which is freely and gratefully
acknowledged.)

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[B. Joshua Rosen]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:48:47 +0000, Tim Forcer wrote:

We have some well-established teaching laboratory kit, using
Xilinx XC4013E (optionally XC4020E for project work), with
download by JTAG and a clone of Xilinx Parallel Cable III
(DLC5).

As has been discussed here before, despite some statements on
Xilinx Website, the latest (full-spec) Xilinx software includes
an iMPACT downloader which doesn't support Parallel Cable III.
Alternatively, latest Webpack 6 includes an iMPACT which
supports the download, but not any flavour of XC4000 (although
all the library and similar files seem to be present).


Why don't you stick with the last version of the Xilinx tools that really

supported the 4000 series (probably 4.2)? All of the improvements in the
current tools are aimed at today's FPGAs not at a ten year old family.
From the standpoint of your students the only difference between 4.2 and
6.1 is that the GUI is a little different, but you shouldn't care about
that because the GUI changes with every release.

The one new tool that would be very helpful for your students is
ChipScope, but that uses block RAM which is only present in modern FPGAs.

 

[Tim Forcer]

"B. Joshua Rosen" wrote:

Why don't you stick with the last version
of the Xilinx tools that really supported
the 4000 series (probably 4.2)?

This is probably the simplest solution. If I can find the
installation CD-ROM!

Means changing the standard installation on 70-odd PCs - so
ghosting will be fun (for one of the systems folk, not me).

--
Tim Forcer tmf@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

 

[Peter Alfke]

Tim, if you have a problem finding the CD for 4.2, contact me or call
the Xilinx UK office. We will get you over that "hurdle".
Peter Alfke

Tim Forcer wrote:

"
This is probably the simplest solution. If I can find the
installation CD-ROM!