Xantrex 600HD Battery Losing Charge?

[W. eWatson]

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:54:35 -0800, "W. eWatson"
<wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

---
Read the maintenance section of the manual.

---
JF

 

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:54:35 -0800, "W. eWatson"
<wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

1. Six years isn't bad life for a gel cell battery, although critical
applications (burglar alarm backup, for example) often replace them
every two years.

2. All lead acid batteries last longer of kept properly charged.
Batteries that remain at zero charge for extended periods typically do
not recover when you attempt to charge them.

There's reason the manual says to charge the battery every three
months...

John

 

[W. eWatson]

On 2/26/2011 9:26 AM, news@jecarter.us wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:54:35 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

1. Six years isn't bad life for a gel cell battery, although critical
applications (burglar alarm backup, for example) often replace them
every two years.

2. All lead acid batteries last longer of kept properly charged.
Batteries that remain at zero charge for extended periods typically do
not recover when you attempt to charge them.

There's reason the manual says to charge the battery every three
months...

John
Thanks. Cute. That explains some other battery failures I've had in the

past. I don't ever recall reading that, but then again I probably did
not read the section thinking maintenance might not be much of an issue
other than not storing it in a hot environment, keeping it on a cold
concrete floor, not placing it water, or some similar obvious need. To
bad they didn't put that in very large letters on the battery. However,
if it hadn't been charged for about 4 months, which is about right, why
would it have gone down? Maybe it was longer. Suppose it spent 12 months
on the shelf of a store, wouldn't it drop to zero?

Maybe I can get a discount on another one?

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
<wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2/26/2011 9:26 AM, news@jecarter.us wrote:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:54:35 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

1. Six years isn't bad life for a gel cell battery, although critical
applications (burglar alarm backup, for example) often replace them
every two years.

2. All lead acid batteries last longer of kept properly charged.
Batteries that remain at zero charge for extended periods typically do
not recover when you attempt to charge them.

There's reason the manual says to charge the battery every three
months...

John
Thanks. Cute. That explains some other battery failures I've had in the
past. I don't ever recall reading that, but then again I probably did
not read the section thinking maintenance might not be much of an issue
other than not storing it in a hot environment, keeping it on a cold
concrete floor, not placing it water, or some similar obvious need. To
bad they didn't put that in very large letters on the battery. However,
if it hadn't been charged for about 4 months, which is about right, why
would it have gone down?

---
It's called self-discharge.
---

Maybe it was longer. Suppose it spent 12 months
on the shelf of a store, wouldn't it drop to zero?

---
Not likely because, in a store, they'd keep it charged up.

---
JF

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
<wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2/26/2011 9:26 AM, news@jecarter.us wrote:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 07:54:35 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

I've had Subject battery for about 6 years and it doesn't really get
used as much as years ago, but even that was not really much. I
sometimes powered my laptop with it, or started a vehicle. It's been
useful when our main power goes out.

About five days ago, there was a forecast for a strong winter storm, so
I charged it up. The storm didn't occur. Another storm was forecast for
Thursday and did occur. It's just now abating after dumping 18" of snow.
When I brought the battery into the house from the garage, I noticed the
power check device was zero, and the built in light was fairly week. Our
power went out shortly after midnight Friday. It re-appeared around 4
am. I happened to be up so recharged it. At 9 am it was 100%. Later in
the day I found it at 0%.

The battery spends most of its time in the garage on a shelf. If this
battery is dying, it seems like a very short life for the price.

1. Six years isn't bad life for a gel cell battery, although critical
applications (burglar alarm backup, for example) often replace them
every two years.

2. All lead acid batteries last longer of kept properly charged.
Batteries that remain at zero charge for extended periods typically do
not recover when you attempt to charge them.

There's reason the manual says to charge the battery every three
months...

John
Thanks. Cute. That explains some other battery failures I've had in the
past. I don't ever recall reading that, but then again I probably did
not read the section thinking maintenance might not be much of an issue
other than not storing it in a hot environment, keeping it on a cold
concrete floor, not placing it water, or some similar obvious need. To
bad they didn't put that in very large letters on the battery. However,
if it hadn't been charged for about 4 months, which is about right, why
would it have gone down? Maybe it was longer. Suppose it spent 12 months
on the shelf of a store, wouldn't it drop to zero?

Maybe I can get a discount on another one?

Most (all?) rechargeable batteries will self-discharge, some faster
than others. For flooded lead-acid batteries it is generally
recommended that they be charged once a month to compensate for
self-discharge. Gel cells have a somewhat lower self-discharge rate,
so can probably tolerate longer periods without charging.

A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

 

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:56:31 -0800, Peter Bennett
<peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:

[snip]

A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.

I've had mixed success reviving batteries with a desulfator (also
desulphator) device. It sends a high voltage/current pulse into a
sulfated battery with the intent of converting the lead sulfate back
to a usable compound. In several attempts with an inexpensive kit
(~$20US delivered on ebay) I had success with two 6 volt 12AH
batteries (wired in series to use a 12 volt rated desulfator). I had
less luck with a 12 volt 3AH and a 12 volt 8AH. The desulfator got
the voltage up to somewhere between 8 and 11 volts, but not to the
normal 13-14 volt range achieved on the 12AH batteries. Each battery
was on a charger adjusted to deliver a C/10 charge to the battery
while the desulfator was connected.

I don't know if original quality, battery age, or time in "dead" state
were factors in the ability to recover the batteries - the ones I
tested were of various vintages and several different brands. Since
they were "dead" as far as any use (other than as door stops) I wasn't
concerned about any damage that might occur from using the desulfator.
Considering the price of two 6V 12AH batteries, I did a little better
than break even on the cost of the device. If I use it successfully
on another battery, that will be profit.

If you have larger batteries that you want to try a desulfator on, the
price goes up with battery capacity - there's a formula for peak
current based on battery AH capacity, but I don't have it handy. The
simple pricing is $2/AH for the battery you want to recover: 10AH
battery, $20 device; 40AH battery, $80 device. Some of the bigger
devices have huge components and large wire (#2 or better) to handle
the peak currents.

No promses - just a report on my experiences.

John

 

[W. eWatson]

On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, news@jecarter.us wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:56:31 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:


[snip]

A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.

I've had mixed success reviving batteries with a desulfator (also
desulphator) device. It sends a high voltage/current pulse into a
sulfated battery with the intent of converting the lead sulfate back
to a usable compound. In several attempts with an inexpensive kit
(~$20US delivered on ebay) I had success with two 6 volt 12AH
batteries (wired in series to use a 12 volt rated desulfator). I had
less luck with a 12 volt 3AH and a 12 volt 8AH. The desulfator got
the voltage up to somewhere between 8 and 11 volts, but not to the
normal 13-14 volt range achieved on the 12AH batteries. Each battery
was on a charger adjusted to deliver a C/10 charge to the battery
while the desulfator was connected.

I don't know if original quality, battery age, or time in "dead" state
were factors in the ability to recover the batteries - the ones I
tested were of various vintages and several different brands. Since
they were "dead" as far as any use (other than as door stops) I wasn't
concerned about any damage that might occur from using the desulfator.
Considering the price of two 6V 12AH batteries, I did a little better
than break even on the cost of the device. If I use it successfully
on another battery, that will be profit.

If you have larger batteries that you want to try a desulfator on, the
price goes up with battery capacity - there's a formula for peak
current based on battery AH capacity, but I don't have it handy. The
simple pricing is $2/AH for the battery you want to recover: 10AH
battery, $20 device; 40AH battery, $80 device. Some of the bigger
devices have huge components and large wire (#2 or better) to handle
the peak currents.

No promses - just a report on my experiences.

John
I found my manual in the garage, and dug around for awhile (there is no

index or TOC.) and found a passage I had highlighted that said for best
operation charge every three months. Long forgotten by me. In the next
sentence it said one can continuously charge the battery.

I'll call Xanetex Monday and see what the scoop is.

I have another battery from CostCo that's mainly for jump starts. I've
had it longer, and hardly ever charge it. It seems to be doing well.
Probably cost $30-$40. I think it's called a Power Pack, and definitely
older than the Xantrex. It has a deterorating sticker near the handle
that gives some maintenance tips. Do not charge beyond X hours, etc. It
had a full label on the front until about 4 hours ago when I pulled it
off and through it out. Not quite sure where. The basket here doesn't
have it. 600 something still on the front.

 

[ehsjr]

W. eWatson wrote:

On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, news@jecarter.us wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:56:31 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:


[snip]


A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.


I've had mixed success reviving batteries with a desulfator (also
desulphator) device. It sends a high voltage/current pulse into a
sulfated battery with the intent of converting the lead sulfate back
to a usable compound. In several attempts with an inexpensive kit
(~$20US delivered on ebay) I had success with two 6 volt 12AH
batteries (wired in series to use a 12 volt rated desulfator). I had
less luck with a 12 volt 3AH and a 12 volt 8AH. The desulfator got
the voltage up to somewhere between 8 and 11 volts, but not to the
normal 13-14 volt range achieved on the 12AH batteries. Each battery
was on a charger adjusted to deliver a C/10 charge to the battery
while the desulfator was connected.

I don't know if original quality, battery age, or time in "dead" state
were factors in the ability to recover the batteries - the ones I
tested were of various vintages and several different brands. Since
they were "dead" as far as any use (other than as door stops) I wasn't
concerned about any damage that might occur from using the desulfator.
Considering the price of two 6V 12AH batteries, I did a little better
than break even on the cost of the device. If I use it successfully
on another battery, that will be profit.

If you have larger batteries that you want to try a desulfator on, the
price goes up with battery capacity - there's a formula for peak
current based on battery AH capacity, but I don't have it handy. The
simple pricing is $2/AH for the battery you want to recover: 10AH
battery, $20 device; 40AH battery, $80 device. Some of the bigger
devices have huge components and large wire (#2 or better) to handle
the peak currents.

No promses - just a report on my experiences.

John

I found my manual in the garage, and dug around for awhile (there is no
index or TOC.) and found a passage I had highlighted that said for best
operation charge every three months. Long forgotten by me. In the next
sentence it said one can continuously charge the battery.

Be careful with continuous charge.

One cannot continuously charge a battery without causing the battery
some harm, unless the charger is designed to produce a "float" or
"trickle" charge, or in some other way limit the charge when the
battery is "full". Even with float or trickle charging, there may be
a problem. A "smart charger" that charges the battery only when
needed and shuts off between charges seem the better approach.

In some applications there is a trade-off of reduced battery life
versus convenience; sometimes crap is sold with little or no
attention paid to battery life, as long as the product outlasts the
warranty period. And a product manufacturer's description of
how to charge the battery in the product might differ from what the
battery manufacturer says.

Ed

I'll call Xanetex Monday and see what the scoop is.

I have another battery from CostCo that's mainly for jump starts. I've
had it longer, and hardly ever charge it. It seems to be doing well.
Probably cost $30-$40. I think it's called a Power Pack, and definitely
older than the Xantrex. It has a deterorating sticker near the handle
that gives some maintenance tips. Do not charge beyond X hours, etc. It
had a full label on the front until about 4 hours ago when I pulled it
off and through it out. Not quite sure where. The basket here doesn't
have it. 600 something still on the front.

 

[W. eWatson]

On 2/26/2011 9:41 PM, ehsjr wrote:

W. eWatson wrote:
On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, news@jecarter.us wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:56:31 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:


[snip]


A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.


I've had mixed success reviving batteries with a desulfator (also
desulphator) device. It sends a high voltage/current pulse into a
sulfated battery with the intent of converting the lead sulfate back
to a usable compound. In several attempts with an inexpensive kit
(~$20US delivered on ebay) I had success with two 6 volt 12AH
batteries (wired in series to use a 12 volt rated desulfator). I had
less luck with a 12 volt 3AH and a 12 volt 8AH. The desulfator got
the voltage up to somewhere between 8 and 11 volts, but not to the
normal 13-14 volt range achieved on the 12AH batteries. Each battery
was on a charger adjusted to deliver a C/10 charge to the battery
while the desulfator was connected.

I don't know if original quality, battery age, or time in "dead" state
were factors in the ability to recover the batteries - the ones I
tested were of various vintages and several different brands. Since
they were "dead" as far as any use (other than as door stops) I wasn't
concerned about any damage that might occur from using the desulfator.
Considering the price of two 6V 12AH batteries, I did a little better
than break even on the cost of the device. If I use it successfully
on another battery, that will be profit.

If you have larger batteries that you want to try a desulfator on, the
price goes up with battery capacity - there's a formula for peak
current based on battery AH capacity, but I don't have it handy. The
simple pricing is $2/AH for the battery you want to recover: 10AH
battery, $20 device; 40AH battery, $80 device. Some of the bigger
devices have huge components and large wire (#2 or better) to handle
the peak currents.

No promses - just a report on my experiences.

John

I found my manual in the garage, and dug around for awhile (there is
no index or TOC.) and found a passage I had highlighted that said for
best operation charge every three months. Long forgotten by me. In the
next sentence it said one can continuously charge the battery.

Be careful with continuous charge.

One cannot continuously charge a battery without causing the battery
some harm, unless the charger is designed to produce a "float" or
"trickle" charge, or in some other way limit the charge when the
battery is "full". Even with float or trickle charging, there may be
a problem. A "smart charger" that charges the battery only when
needed and shuts off between charges seem the better approach.

In some applications there is a trade-off of reduced battery life
versus convenience; sometimes crap is sold with little or no
attention paid to battery life, as long as the product outlasts the
warranty period. And a product manufacturer's description of
how to charge the battery in the product might differ from what the
battery manufacturer says.

Ed


I'll call Xanetex Monday and see what the scoop is.

I have another battery from CostCo that's mainly for jump starts. I've
had it longer, and hardly ever charge it. It seems to be doing well.
Probably cost $30-$40. I think it's called a Power Pack, and
definitely older than the Xantrex. It has a deterorating sticker near
the handle that gives some maintenance tips. Do not charge beyond X
hours, etc. It had a full label on the front until about 4 hours ago
when I pulled it off and through it out. Not quite sure where. The
basket here doesn't have it. 600 something still on the front.
I'll check with Xantrex tomorrow. Too bad there isn't an alarm that goes

off when the charge gets low. Our cell phones have one--a chirp every
minute. Of course, since I keep the battery in the garage, there's not a
high chance I'd ever hear it.

 

[ehsjr]

W. eWatson wrote:

On 2/26/2011 9:41 PM, ehsjr wrote:

W. eWatson wrote:

On 2/26/2011 5:25 PM, news@jecarter.us wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:56:31 -0800, Peter Bennett
peterbb@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:10:37 -0800, "W. eWatson"
wolftracks@invalid.com> wrote:


[snip]


A lead-acid battery (flooded or gel) will become sulfated (an
insoluble non-conductive coating of lead sulfide will form on the
plates) reducing the usable capacity of the battery - it will then
appear to charge, but won't be able to deliver much current.



I've had mixed success reviving batteries with a desulfator (also
desulphator) device. It sends a high voltage/current pulse into a
sulfated battery with the intent of converting the lead sulfate back
to a usable compound. In several attempts with an inexpensive kit
(~$20US delivered on ebay) I had success with two 6 volt 12AH
batteries (wired in series to use a 12 volt rated desulfator). I had
less luck with a 12 volt 3AH and a 12 volt 8AH. The desulfator got
the voltage up to somewhere between 8 and 11 volts, but not to the
normal 13-14 volt range achieved on the 12AH batteries. Each battery
was on a charger adjusted to deliver a C/10 charge to the battery
while the desulfator was connected.

I don't know if original quality, battery age, or time in "dead" state
were factors in the ability to recover the batteries - the ones I
tested were of various vintages and several different brands. Since
they were "dead" as far as any use (other than as door stops) I wasn't
concerned about any damage that might occur from using the desulfator.
Considering the price of two 6V 12AH batteries, I did a little better
than break even on the cost of the device. If I use it successfully
on another battery, that will be profit.

If you have larger batteries that you want to try a desulfator on, the
price goes up with battery capacity - there's a formula for peak
current based on battery AH capacity, but I don't have it handy. The
simple pricing is $2/AH for the battery you want to recover: 10AH
battery, $20 device; 40AH battery, $80 device. Some of the bigger
devices have huge components and large wire (#2 or better) to handle
the peak currents.

No promses - just a report on my experiences.

John


I found my manual in the garage, and dug around for awhile (there is
no index or TOC.) and found a passage I had highlighted that said for
best operation charge every three months. Long forgotten by me. In the
next sentence it said one can continuously charge the battery.


Be careful with continuous charge.

One cannot continuously charge a battery without causing the battery
some harm, unless the charger is designed to produce a "float" or
"trickle" charge, or in some other way limit the charge when the
battery is "full". Even with float or trickle charging, there may be
a problem. A "smart charger" that charges the battery only when
needed and shuts off between charges seem the better approach.

In some applications there is a trade-off of reduced battery life
versus convenience; sometimes crap is sold with little or no
attention paid to battery life, as long as the product outlasts the
warranty period. And a product manufacturer's description of
how to charge the battery in the product might differ from what the
battery manufacturer says.

Ed


I'll call Xanetex Monday and see what the scoop is.

I have another battery from CostCo that's mainly for jump starts. I've
had it longer, and hardly ever charge it. It seems to be doing well.
Probably cost $30-$40. I think it's called a Power Pack, and
definitely older than the Xantrex. It has a deterorating sticker near
the handle that gives some maintenance tips. Do not charge beyond X
hours, etc. It had a full label on the front until about 4 hours ago
when I pulled it off and through it out. Not quite sure where. The
basket here doesn't have it. 600 something still on the front.

I'll check with Xantrex tomorrow. Too bad there isn't an alarm that goes
off when the charge gets low. Our cell phones have one--a chirp every
minute. Of course, since I keep the battery in the garage, there's not a
high chance I'd ever hear it.

What you can do is build an on/off circuit for the charger,
that is controlled by the battery voltage. If the voltage
drops below X, turn the charger on. When the voltage goes
above Y, turn the charger off. Or, just put a note on the
calendar to charge the battery on the first day of each
quarter - or something like that.

Ed