Would this work? ...

[Banana]

My latest project is to wire up a light that fades on when body movement is
detected and subsequently fades off after a preset time of there being no
infra-red heat there.

I do not want the light simply to turn on and off - that's easy! I would
like it to fade on and fade off.

I have 3 ceiling-mounted PIR sensors which I could simply wire up to do the
turning on and off but I was wondering if these particular units I have
would work with a fader kit I was thinking about buying.

I would appreciate some thoughts and feedback as to whether or not these 2
units would work together...

There is a picture and a very basic wiring diagram of the PIR's that I
already have here:
http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

.... and the Velleman kit I was thinking about buying here:
http://tinyurl.com/faderkit

Would the PIR sensors be able to operate the fader kit? Preferably with no
extra relays switches involved.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul (UK)

 

[GRe]

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:kYidnaKkkLfw_BLRnZ2dnUVZ7rKdnZ2d@bt.com...

My latest project is to wire up a light that fades on when body movement
is detected and subsequently fades off after a preset time of there being
no infra-red heat there.

I do not want the light simply to turn on and off - that's easy! I would
like it to fade on and fade off.

I have 3 ceiling-mounted PIR sensors which I could simply wire up to do
the turning on and off but I was wondering if these particular units I
have would work with a fader kit I was thinking about buying.

I would appreciate some thoughts and feedback as to whether or not these 2
units would work together...

There is a picture and a very basic wiring diagram of the PIR's that I
already have here:
http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

... and the Velleman kit I was thinking about buying here:
http://tinyurl.com/faderkit

Would the PIR sensors be able to operate the fader kit? Preferably with no
extra relays switches involved.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul (UK)

For the fader function the Velleman kit (K8028) needs a closed contact for
slow-on (and to stay on), and for slow-off the same contact must go open.
If the output of your PIR sensor is a relay contact that is ISOLATED from
the mains supply it should work.
The PIR sensor relay contact must be wired to SK3(input) of the K8028, see
page 24 of:
http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k8028.pdf

Do remember the K8028 is NOT isolated from the mains, depending on the
wiring of the
live and neutral wires to the K8028 it may carry mains voltage on the SK3
terminal!
When neutral is wired to SK1 at the LOWER terminal (close to where it says
AC-power)
a large part of the circuit, including the SK3 terminal, won't carry mains
voltage.
However, that's only for as long as the fuse F1 is intact!
Regarding all of the above, the wiring must comply with safety regulations
and is
a job for a certified electrician, you have been warned!

With multiple PIR sensors all relay contacts should be wired in parallel,
see page 8.
Upon movement detection by anyone of the PIR sensors the K8028 will do it's
job.

If the PIR sensor does not have an isolated relay contact output the K8028
cannot
be controlled directly and you'll have to take a different approach to make
it work.
For that please provide some more info about the (output) circuit of the PIR
sensor.

Regards,
Gio

 

[Banana]

"GRe" <mynamespacedbydots@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4c90860f$0$41111$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:kYidnaKkkLfw_BLRnZ2dnUVZ7rKdnZ2d@bt.com...
My latest project is to wire up a light that fades on when body movement
is detected and subsequently fades off after a preset time of there being
no infra-red heat there.

I do not want the light simply to turn on and off - that's easy! I would
like it to fade on and fade off.

I have 3 ceiling-mounted PIR sensors which I could simply wire up to do
the turning on and off but I was wondering if these particular units I
have would work with a fader kit I was thinking about buying.

I would appreciate some thoughts and feedback as to whether or not these
2 units would work together...

There is a picture and a very basic wiring diagram of the PIR's that I
already have here:
http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

... and the Velleman kit I was thinking about buying here:
http://tinyurl.com/faderkit

Would the PIR sensors be able to operate the fader kit? Preferably with
no extra relays switches involved.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul (UK)

For the fader function the Velleman kit (K8028) needs a closed contact for
slow-on (and to stay on), and for slow-off the same contact must go open.
If the output of your PIR sensor is a relay contact that is ISOLATED from
the mains supply it should work.
The PIR sensor relay contact must be wired to SK3(input) of the K8028, see
page 24 of:
http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k8028.pdf

Do remember the K8028 is NOT isolated from the mains, depending on the
wiring of the
live and neutral wires to the K8028 it may carry mains voltage on the SK3
terminal!
When neutral is wired to SK1 at the LOWER terminal (close to where it says
AC-power)
a large part of the circuit, including the SK3 terminal, won't carry mains
voltage.
However, that's only for as long as the fuse F1 is intact!
Regarding all of the above, the wiring must comply with safety regulations
and is
a job for a certified electrician, you have been warned!

With multiple PIR sensors all relay contacts should be wired in parallel,
see page 8.
Upon movement detection by anyone of the PIR sensors the K8028 will do
it's job.

If the PIR sensor does not have an isolated relay contact output the K8028
cannot
be controlled directly and you'll have to take a different approach to
make it work.
For that please provide some more info about the (output) circuit of the
PIR sensor.

Regards,
Gio

Hi Gio,

Firstly thank you for your detailed reply.

Secondly, sorry for the long delay in my reply. I have been very busy.

The PIR does not have an isolated relay contact output.

I have not been able to find any detailed circuit diagrams for the PIR but I
e-mailed the suppliers of the product and asked them if the mains output of
the PIR could operate a relay load instead of a light bulb.

They replied and said yes.

So, it looks like I will have to go down the road I wanted to avoid, that is
to use a relay.

So the PIR will have to power mains relay load and the contact output of
that to operate the dimmer.

Paul.

 

[GRe]

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:vaSdnfYsPef3wTnRnZ2dnUVZ8iidnZ2d@bt.com...

"GRe" <mynamespacedbydots@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4c90860f$0$41111$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:kYidnaKkkLfw_BLRnZ2dnUVZ7rKdnZ2d@bt.com...
My latest project is to wire up a light that fades on when body movement
is detected and subsequently fades off after a preset time of there
being no infra-red heat there.

I do not want the light simply to turn on and off - that's easy! I would
like it to fade on and fade off.

I have 3 ceiling-mounted PIR sensors which I could simply wire up to do
the turning on and off but I was wondering if these particular units I
have would work with a fader kit I was thinking about buying.

I would appreciate some thoughts and feedback as to whether or not these
2 units would work together...

There is a picture and a very basic wiring diagram of the PIR's that I
already have here:
http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

... and the Velleman kit I was thinking about buying here:
http://tinyurl.com/faderkit

Would the PIR sensors be able to operate the fader kit? Preferably with
no extra relays switches involved.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul (UK)

For the fader function the Velleman kit (K8028) needs a closed contact
for
slow-on (and to stay on), and for slow-off the same contact must go open.
If the output of your PIR sensor is a relay contact that is ISOLATED from
the mains supply it should work.
The PIR sensor relay contact must be wired to SK3(input) of the K8028,
see page 24 of:
http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k8028.pdf

Do remember the K8028 is NOT isolated from the mains, depending on the
wiring of the
live and neutral wires to the K8028 it may carry mains voltage on the SK3
terminal!
When neutral is wired to SK1 at the LOWER terminal (close to where it
says AC-power)
a large part of the circuit, including the SK3 terminal, won't carry
mains voltage.
However, that's only for as long as the fuse F1 is intact!
Regarding all of the above, the wiring must comply with safety
regulations and is
a job for a certified electrician, you have been warned!

With multiple PIR sensors all relay contacts should be wired in parallel,
see page 8.
Upon movement detection by anyone of the PIR sensors the K8028 will do
it's job.

If the PIR sensor does not have an isolated relay contact output the
K8028 cannot
be controlled directly and you'll have to take a different approach to
make it work.
For that please provide some more info about the (output) circuit of the
PIR sensor.

Regards,
Gio

Hi Gio,

Firstly thank you for your detailed reply.

Secondly, sorry for the long delay in my reply. I have been very busy.

The PIR does not have an isolated relay contact output.
Only after my post I looked at http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

Neutral(N) is common to mains and load, as such it is not isolated.

I have not been able to find any detailed circuit diagrams for the PIR but
I e-mailed the suppliers of the product and asked them if the mains output
of the PIR could operate a relay load instead of a light bulb.

They replied and said yes.

So, it looks like I will have to go down the road I wanted to avoid, that
is to use a relay.
The question is whether the PIR itself does have a relay or triac output.

Does the PIR produce an audible click upon operation?
If yes, whether "loud" or soft, it does have a relay output.

In case of a relay output you might be able to slightly modify the PIR,
i.e. the relay contact at present wired to (common) neutral must be
isolated from neutral. Both contacts of the relay must be brought out
separately and wired to SK3 of the K8028.
Of course the above will void electrical safety conformity and warranty.

In case you don't want or are'nt able to modify the PIR, or in case it
does have a triac output, there's no other way than to connect SK3 to
the PIR by some kind of "interface", f.e. the one you mentioned below.

So the PIR will have to power mains relay load and the contact output of
that to operate the dimmer.
Probably the simplest hassle free "interface" at a cost of between Ł5-15.

Other options include:
- Low tech, LDR(*), wired to SK3, looking to small light bulb wired to PIR.
*f.e.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Optoelectronics/Photodetectors/Light-dependent-resistor-NORPS12/34793#techspec
- LDR looking to two anti-parallel LED's in combined with a power resistor.
- Optocoupler output wired to SK3 and optocoupler input wired to the PIR
output according fig.10 of: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-3001.pdf
- As above but with an AC input optocoupler so the rectifier can be omitted,
see f.e.: http://www.vishay.com/docs/83517/83517.pdf


Except the mains relay option, other options will require "tweaking" to
get it right, especially if the PIR has a triac output.

A completely different solution is to eliminate your present PIR sensor
alltogether and wire up one of the PIR modules(#) to the K8028 directly.
#1:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Sensors/Pir-Sensors/KC7783R-PIR-Module/80434/kw/PIR+Module+with+lens
#2:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Sensors/Pir-Sensors/PIR-Module-with-lens/81565/kw/PIR+Module+with+lens
#3: http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.73/.f
etc, etc.

I'll refrain from describing all possible options in detail as I don't
know the route you want to choose.

Regards,
Gio

Paul.

 

[Banana]

"GRe" <mynamespacedbydots@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4ca720a2$0$81474$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:vaSdnfYsPef3wTnRnZ2dnUVZ8iidnZ2d@bt.com...

"GRe" <mynamespacedbydots@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4c90860f$0$41111$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:kYidnaKkkLfw_BLRnZ2dnUVZ7rKdnZ2d@bt.com...
My latest project is to wire up a light that fades on when body
movement
is detected and subsequently fades off after a preset time of there
being no infra-red heat there.

I do not want the light simply to turn on and off - that's easy! I
would
like it to fade on and fade off.

I have 3 ceiling-mounted PIR sensors which I could simply wire up to do
the turning on and off but I was wondering if these particular units I
have would work with a fader kit I was thinking about buying.

I would appreciate some thoughts and feedback as to whether or not
these
2 units would work together...

There is a picture and a very basic wiring diagram of the PIR's that I
already have here:
http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor

... and the Velleman kit I was thinking about buying here:
http://tinyurl.com/faderkit

Would the PIR sensors be able to operate the fader kit? Preferably with
no extra relays switches involved.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul (UK)

For the fader function the Velleman kit (K8028) needs a closed contact
for
slow-on (and to stay on), and for slow-off the same contact must go
open.
If the output of your PIR sensor is a relay contact that is ISOLATED
from
the mains supply it should work.
The PIR sensor relay contact must be wired to SK3(input) of the K8028,
see page 24 of:
http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k8028.pdf

Do remember the K8028 is NOT isolated from the mains, depending on the
wiring of the
live and neutral wires to the K8028 it may carry mains voltage on the
SK3
terminal!
When neutral is wired to SK1 at the LOWER terminal (close to where it
says AC-power)
a large part of the circuit, including the SK3 terminal, won't carry
mains voltage.
However, that's only for as long as the fuse F1 is intact!
Regarding all of the above, the wiring must comply with safety
regulations and is
a job for a certified electrician, you have been warned!

With multiple PIR sensors all relay contacts should be wired in
parallel,
see page 8.
Upon movement detection by anyone of the PIR sensors the K8028 will do
it's job.

If the PIR sensor does not have an isolated relay contact output the
K8028 cannot
be controlled directly and you'll have to take a different approach to
make it work.
For that please provide some more info about the (output) circuit of the
PIR sensor.

Regards,
Gio

Hi Gio,

Firstly thank you for your detailed reply.

Secondly, sorry for the long delay in my reply. I have been very busy.

The PIR does not have an isolated relay contact output.
Only after my post I looked at http://tinyurl.com/pir-sensor
Neutral(N) is common to mains and load, as such it is not isolated.

I have not been able to find any detailed circuit diagrams for the PIR
but
I e-mailed the suppliers of the product and asked them if the mains
output
of the PIR could operate a relay load instead of a light bulb.

They replied and said yes.

So, it looks like I will have to go down the road I wanted to avoid, that
is to use a relay.
The question is whether the PIR itself does have a relay or triac output.
Does the PIR produce an audible click upon operation?
If yes, whether "loud" or soft, it does have a relay output.

Hi Gio,

I have just tested the unit for the first time and yes, there is a definate
click when the PIR is activated so it seems there is a relay inside.

I have opened the unit and taken some pictures.

The relay, as you will know, is the small black unit.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5047155957_230f2cc730_b.jpg

Picture of the reverse of the PCB (flipped left to right).
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5047958676_a9832e1078_b.jpg

It looks like A & B are the 24V coil input and C & D are the common and
normally-open contact.

I assume there is a 5th contact on the relay which is normally closed but
which has been snipped off and not used.

I will de-solder the relay from the PCB tomorrow when I have some more time.

In case of a relay output you might be able to slightly modify the PIR,
i.e. the relay contact at present wired to (common) neutral must be
isolated from neutral. Both contacts of the relay must be brought out
separately and wired to SK3 of the K8028.
Of course the above will void electrical safety conformity and warranty.

This is now the option I would prefer rather than [maybe unnecessarily]
introducing further electrical components to the project.

<snip>

Other options include:
- Low tech, LDR(*), wired to SK3, looking to small light bulb wired to
PIR.
*f.e.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Optoelectronics/Photodetectors/Light-dependent-resistor-NORPS12/34793#techspec
- LDR looking to two anti-parallel LED's in combined with a power
resistor.
- Optocoupler output wired to SK3 and optocoupler input wired to the PIR
output according fig.10 of: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-3001.pdf
- As above but with an AC input optocoupler so the rectifier can be
omitted,
see f.e.: http://www.vishay.com/docs/83517/83517.pdf

Thanks for the extra info.

There are a few ways I could get this idea to work but since I have already
bought 3 of these PIR's, I thought I would maybe try to get these working
first.

If for whatever reason I cannot get your modification idea to work, I will
certainly consider those other ideas.

Except the mains relay option, other options will require "tweaking" to
get it right, especially if the PIR has a triac output.

A completely different solution is to eliminate your present PIR sensor
alltogether and wire up one of the PIR modules(#) to the K8028 directly.
#1:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Sensors/Pir-Sensors/KC7783R-PIR-Module/80434/kw/PIR+Module+with+lens
#2:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Sensors/Pir-Sensors/PIR-Module-with-lens/81565/kw/PIR+Module+with+lens
#3: http://www.electronics123.com/s.nl/it.A/id.73/.f
etc, etc.

I'll refrain from describing all possible options in detail as I don't
know the route you want to choose.

Well at the moment, it looks like your modded-relay-on-the-PCB idea is a
good one.

I need to pop down to Maplins to buy some connectors and cable etc tomorrow
and also order a dimmer kit to assemble.

I will report back when I get something working or have something
interesting to add!

Many thanks,

Paul.

 

[GRe]

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:4fCdnUZqhajBITXRnZ2dnUVZ7oSdnZ2d@bt.com...

I have opened the unit and taken some pictures.

The relay, as you will know, is the small black unit.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5047155957_230f2cc730_b.jpg

Picture of the reverse of the PCB (flipped left to right).
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5047958676_a9832e1078_b.jpg

It looks like A & B are the 24V coil input and C & D are the common and
normally-open contact.
Unfortunatly the PCB's most interesting part, in this context,

is concealed by the X2 capacitor. Please fold it aside and
take another picture so the relay's pin "D" is clearly visible.
Or, even better, desolder the cap so the PCB layout is clear.


Below the brass "OUT" and "N" terminals is a reddish-brown cap
which has one side connected to "OUT". Where the other side
goes is concealed too but important in the context of the mod.

On the left of the reddish-brown cap, close to terminal "N", is a
(green) resistor that seems to have one leg floating in space???

Possible, but not likely, the presence of a.m. cap is important for
the operation of the PIR in the energized mode, i.e. relay is "ON".
If so, you can not remove it because it's required for operation but
OTOH to attain floating contacts for the mod it must be removed.
In this case, because of the dilemma, the modification won't work.

Probably the presence of the cap is just for filtering the output.
But as mentioned before the pic does not give a clue where it goes.
Best would be to reverse engineer a schematic of the PIR's power
section, that is the PCB your holding in your hand, and post it.

I assume there is a 5th contact on the relay which is normally closed but
which has been snipped off and not used.

I will de-solder the relay from the PCB tomorrow when I have some more
time.
For now that is unnecessary, you might do more bad than good.

If for whatever reason I cannot get your modification idea to work, I will
certainly consider those other ideas.
O.K., we'll see.

The discussion may become quite lengthy, especial to describe a
work around in the "possible, but not likely" case. If you don't
mind please provide your direct e-mail adress before we continue.


Regards,
Gio

 

[Banana]

"GRe" <mynamespacedbydots@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4caade04$0$81479$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Banana" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:4fCdnUZqhajBITXRnZ2dnUVZ7oSdnZ2d@bt.com...

I have opened the unit and taken some pictures.

The relay, as you will know, is the small black unit.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5047155957_230f2cc730_b.jpg

Picture of the reverse of the PCB (flipped left to right).
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5047958676_a9832e1078_b.jpg

It looks like A & B are the 24V coil input and C & D are the common and
normally-open contact.
Unfortunatly the PCB's most interesting part, in this context,
is concealed by the X2 capacitor. Please fold it aside and
take another picture so the relay's pin "D" is clearly visible.
Or, even better, desolder the cap so the PCB layout is clear.

Pics taken, see below.

Below the brass "OUT" and "N" terminals is a reddish-brown cap
which has one side connected to "OUT". Where the other side
goes is concealed too but important in the context of the mod.

On the left of the reddish-brown cap, close to terminal "N", is a
(green) resistor that seems to have one leg floating in space???

The resistor terminal is connected to N

Possible, but not likely, the presence of a.m. cap is important for
the operation of the PIR in the energized mode, i.e. relay is "ON".
If so, you can not remove it because it's required for operation but
OTOH to attain floating contacts for the mod it must be removed.
In this case, because of the dilemma, the modification won't work.

Probably the presence of the cap is just for filtering the output.
But as mentioned before the pic does not give a clue where it goes.
Best would be to reverse engineer a schematic of the PIR's power
section, that is the PCB your holding in your hand, and post it.


I assume there is a 5th contact on the relay which is normally closed but
which has been snipped off and not used.

I will de-solder the relay from the PCB tomorrow when I have some more
time.
For now that is unnecessary, you might do more bad than good.


If for whatever reason I cannot get your modification idea to work, I
will certainly consider those other ideas.
O.K., we'll see.
The discussion may become quite lengthy, especial to describe a
work around in the "possible, but not likely" case. If you don't
mind please provide your direct e-mail adress before we continue.


Regards,
Gio

Hi Geo,

Thanks for your reply.

I will be busy for maybe a week now and so won't be able to reply to the
newsgroup for a while.

I have uploaded a picture with the capacitor desoldered from the pcb:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5056563797_9c29c531a4_b.jpg

.... and the same pic but with indicators as to where I believe the resistor
connections to be:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5056565393_5a19dccd7d_b.jpg

.... additional picture:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5057251218_b4e246b5f6_b.jpg

Higher res pics are available here but my server upload speed is slow so
you'll have to be patient - maybe make a coffee or go on holiday or
something!
http://tinyurl.com/pir-pic3
http://tinyurl.com/pir-pic4
http://tinyurl.com/pir-pic5

.... and my e-mail address here:
http://tinyurl.com/pauls-email

You can replace the 'info' with 'paul' if you wish. Both will get to me.

By the way and for what it's worth, I tested the top 2 relay contacts and as
you would expect, they were open.

Kind regards,

Paul.