World's worst software. What's decent?

[Robert Hoffman]

I've been looking hard. I need a decent schematic and PCB package under
$1000. Don't need autorouter or a zillion layers. Do want back
annotation and ease of use. I've downloaded a dozen demo packages. The
software all seems to be written by people with exceptional eyesight, no
fingers, a poor grasp of the English language, little understanding of
Windows conventions, and have never actually designed a PC board. They
mostly have 300 little tiny unreadable icons and no clue that clicking
the left mouse button should select something and the right button
should offer a list of things to do with it. A good few do not use the
mouse buttons at all. Pretty much without exception the software is
expensive and very poorly written. I can draw schematics and boards
faster and easier in Autocad, which is what I do now.

Is there ANYTHING out there that: actually correctly uses the mouse, has
working popup help on the buttons, is written in American English (no
"colours" please), is readable by somebody without super-human eyesight
and does 95% of everything with only the mouse buttons like it should.
Double-click to change properties, right-click to rotate, mirror, swap,
delete, add, cut, etc. I don't want something I have to fight with.
Under $1,000.

 

[Robert Hoffman]

Nothing actually WRONG with Engilsh English. Its a symptom however.
The USA is probably the world's largest market for CAD at the moment.
If a software vendor can't be troubled to understand and accomodate the
local idiom, it bothers me. Eagle, for example. Badly translated
prompts from German and a very different expectation about the user
interface. "User is please to click the button right of the mouse
mechanism at this time." CAdInt has a wierd non-conforming user
interface translated from Swedish. In Microsoft Word, I can generate a
document faster than I could with pencil and paper. I expect that I can
render a schemetic or a PC board faster with CAD than I can by hand.
Not so. I can draw with a template faster and layout with tape and dots
faster than most PCB CAD programs I've tried. I need something that
increases my productivity. Something I have to fight, or needs
extensive training for me to accomodate its quirks is not acceptable.
It has to fit me. not vice-versa.

Nothing really objectionable about having some minor spelling
differences, but the fact they won't bother to customize to suit such a
major market does bother me. I have not tried Easy PC yet, but I will.

Pooh Bear wrote:

Robert Hoffman wrote:

Is there ANYTHING out there that:....... is written in American English

Anything wrong with English English ?

Graham

 

[Robert Hoffman]

Very nice. I had not found that page. I've looked at about half of
those so far. I've found many where I can't understand how they could
sell a single copy. Terrible. A couple that I don't really like but I
could maybe live with. I'll sort through the rest today. Thanks.

Brad Velander wrote:

Robert,
Don't know if you already know of it but a gent by the name
of Terry Pinnel has a page devoted to CAD software. It contains a
lot of cheaper packages and in some cases a small review or
commentary of the package. In some cases he also has pricing and
most have links to the vendors home page. And no, he is not
selling any of it, he is not a pirate, just a guy who compiled
probably the most complete list of CAD software yet.

see Terry's page at:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/terrypin/ECADList.html

 

[Chaos Master]

Quoting Robert Hoffman [bob@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com], that posted to
sci.electronics.cad on Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:11:41 -0400 under article
<4174E85D.B5A49032@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com>:

Eagle does work, but I found it frustrating. Everybody has their own
style and I need something that fits how I work. Up to a point, I can
trade cost for efficiency. If it takes me a few hours less, its
definitely worth a couple hundred dollars more to me. Of all the
packages I downloaded and tried (at least 15), Easy PC was the only one
who sent me an Email asking if I liked it or had any questions. LTspice
is fantastic for the price (free). I still use it for quick jobs or when
using some linear technology parts.

I ended up learning Eagle, as it was the package that looked more interesting.

But it still has some UNIX stuff in the middle, looks like as if it is a bad
port from Linux version.

For simulation, I liked SIMetrix, their support was helpful with a few
questions I had about the demo.

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ, posting from Brazil.
"I know the difference between myself and my reflection. "
-- Evanescence, "Breathe No More"
http://marreka.no-ip.com | http://tinyurl.com/46vru | http://renan182.no-ip.org

 

[Leon Heller]

"Chaos Master" <spammers.fuck@spam.com.INVALID> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bdfc3d61cf5f4d09896e9@news.individual.net...

, that posted to
sci.electronics.cad on Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:11:41 -0400 under article
4174E85D.B5A49032@_I_Get_too_much_spam.com>:
Eagle does work, but I found it frustrating. Everybody has their own
style and I need something that fits how I work. Up to a point, I can
trade cost for efficiency. If it takes me a few hours less, its
definitely worth a couple hundred dollars more to me. Of all the
packages I downloaded and tried (at least 15), Easy PC was the only one
who sent me an Email asking if I liked it or had any questions. LTspice
is fantastic for the price (free). I still use it for quick jobs or when
using some linear technology parts.

I ended up learning Eagle, as it was the package that looked more
interesting.

But it still has some UNIX stuff in the middle, looks like as if it is a
bad
port from Linux version.

For simulation, I liked SIMetrix, their support was helpful with a few
questions I had about the demo.

The SPICE supplied with EasyPC is SIMetrix. It has a good reputation.

Leon

 

[lurker]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:47:14 +0100, "Leon Heller"
<leon_heller@hotmail.com> wrote:

For simulation, I liked SIMetrix, their support was helpful with a few
questions I had about the demo.

The SPICE supplied with EasyPC is SIMetrix. It has a good reputation.

Leon

I've also looked into SIMetrix at various times, but haven't bought it
yet. The demo seemed to work great.

I'm re-evaluating my schematic capture software at the moment since it
was just sold - again. I've used ECS/Synario/Cohesion for over 10
years and it's always been reasonably priced. The new company wants
~$20k for it now: http://www.sicanvas.com/ They call it Laker AMS.

The schematic software that comes with SIMetrix will apparently read
ASCII files created by cohesion, allowing complete schematics to be
imported.

Those in the newsgroup who use ltspice will know about these ASCII
files since the ltspice format is basically cohesion, modified so they
don't quite transfer.

I don't know what the schematic capture costs by itself, but the
SIMetrix simulator plus the schematic software is still ~$5k:

http://www.catena-ffo.de/laytools.htm#sim

http://www.catena.uk.com/

 

[Don Prescott]

No faith in modern programmers and companies that don't fully
alpha/beta test their crap. Layout version 10 is a good example of a
crippled release. It still isn't working right. Windoze programs can
be made to work reliably.

OrCAD Layout has always looked like a DOS program to me, and version
10 is no different. I doubt it's 32 bit Windows.

Prescott

 

[Pooh Bear]

Clarence wrote:

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:417850C2.847CE6ED@hotmail.com...

Clarence wrote:

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4171E55B.3C551560@hotmail.com...

Robert Hoffman wrote:
Is there ANYTHING out there that:....... is written in American English
Anything wrong with English English ?
Other than hard to decipher?

Please elaborate ?
Graham

I would think it obvious, it is often sprinkled with many slang, or colloquial
words which are not used universally.

Not used universally in the USA you mean ?

We find some US English somewhat hard to understand.

I can't see how there would be much confusion in CAD software though.

Is the USA claiming to own the English language in preference to its origin in
England ?

" Bah, who needs to learn English, I'm never going to England " ...... Homer
Simpson.


Graham ;-)

 

[Clarence]

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41785CC7.5E6454A0@hotmail.com...

Clarence wrote:
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:417850C2.847CE6ED@hotmail.com...
Clarence wrote:
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4171E55B.3C551560@hotmail.com...
Robert Hoffman wrote:
Is there ANYTHING out there that:....... is written in American
English
Anything wrong with English English ?
Other than hard to decipher?
Please elaborate ?
Graham

I would think it obvious, it is often sprinkled with many slang, or
colloquial
words which are not used universally.

Not used universally in the USA you mean ?

Also not used in INDIA, China, Belize, Australia, etc.

We find some US English somewhat hard to understand.

Also understandable, for the same reasons.

I can't see how there would be much confusion in CAD software though.

I have software written in Australia. The help files are worthless!

Is the USA claiming to own the English language in preference to its origin
in
England ?

I have no idea what your talking about. America is a country of diverse
opines.

" Bah, who needs to learn English, I'm never going to England " ...... Homer
Simpson.

Yet you have seen his shows, and understood them?

Graham ;-)

OH, well!
Have fun!

 

[Clarence]

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41788233.D5A8528E@hotmail.com...

Clarence wrote:
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41785CC7.5E6454A0@hotmail.com...
Clarence wrote:
snip
I would think it obvious, it is often sprinkled with many slang, or
colloquial
words which are not used universally.
Not used universally in the USA you mean ?
Also not used in INDIA, China, Belize, Australia, etc.
You'll find that India and Australia have their own slang
and colloquialities that
you wouldn't likely be familiar with either.
Dunno about Belize. When I've been in China,
they speak English more like us than the US way.

Been to India, they have a British accent, but there are a lot if differences.
The Telephone service people are sent to school to learn to speak so someone on
a phone can understand them.

We find some US English somewhat hard to understand.
Also understandable, for the same reasons.

I can't see how there would be much confusion in CAD software though.
I have software written in Australia. The help files are worthless!

I wouldn't base an opinion on that alone.

I don't, I worked with An aussie Programmer, a PhD type over here doing
research. I Couldn't understand more than half of what he said. Just accent
and slang. I had to fix his code too. Not that it didn't work, it was just
really big. Didn't optimize anything.

Is the USA claiming to own the English language in
preference to its origin in England ?

I have no idea what your talking about. America is a country of diverse
opines.

" Bah, who needs to learn English, I'm never going to England " ......
Homer
Simpson.

Yet you have seen his shows, and understood them?

Yes - and yeah - I think so. Rather humourous when you get the picture. Took
a
while though.

Well, since I don't watch the Simpsons normally, I can't comment on it further.

 

[Bill Sloman]

Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message news:<8eadndWyWI1fEeXcRVn-ow@rcn.net>...

Pooh Bear wrote:


Is the USA claiming to own the English language in preference to its
origin in England ?

The Linguist Dr. Deborah Tannen wrote that the language spoken in the US
today more closely resembles the English spoken in England 200 years ago,
than does thelanguage spoken in England today.

The reason is the vast size of the US compared to England. The language
used in a small community can evolve through creative new words, meanings
and phrases, without causing confusion, much more quickly than the language > used in a large geographically expansive country. Think of how the language > changes within cliques of teenagers. It drifts so quickly that one
generation cannot readily understand another.

Teenagers are are special case - they use aberrant language with the
fixed intention of not being understood by the previous generation.
See also "thieve's cant".

The fact that the U.S. is geographically bigger than England doesn't
signify in this context - England has more different dialects than the
US, and a greater variation between the dialects, while Australia,
which is about the same size as the continental U.S.A. has hardly any
perceptible regional dialect variation.

That being so, it can be argued that what you speak in England is the
aberration.

Not really. English is spoken in a lot of places beside England and
the U.S.A. and no single dialect has any particular claim to
pre-emminence.

The aberrant spelling to which the OP was objecting, is a slightly
different case. Noah Webster "reformed" American spelling in 1828

http://www.ctstateu.edu/noahweb/biography.html

while the rest of us have stumbled on using Dr.Johnson's spellings.
Since English spelling embodies some six different schemes for coding
the phonetics of English into the Latin alphabet, there is probably
room for a lot more reform than Noah Webster's idiosyncratic
variations.

---------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Don Prescott]

The reason is the vast size of the US compared to England. The
language used in a small community can evolve through creative new

words, meanings and phrases, without causing confusion, much more
quickly than the language used in a large geographically expansive
country. Think of how the language changes within clicks of
teenagers. It drifts so quickly that one generation cannot readily
understand another.
Surely, the communication gaps between generations, and ethnic groups,
is more about the use of fashionable words and phrases than a true
change in the language....

Many of the words used by Americans that are not part of modern
"British" English, like: trash, garbage, sidewalk, attorney, fall
(Autumn in Britain)and the American English spellings like color, date
from the English at the time of the pilgrim fathers. There is so much
communication between the US and other English speaking countries by
way of tv shows, movies, the internet, that since about the early part
of the 20th century separate evolution paths for English have been
quite limited worldwide.

I would contend that the "American English" in product manuals and
help files is more to do with American style that the actual
language...

Prescott

 

[Clarence]

"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:2trrg6F23ektkU1@uni-berlin.de...

Clarence wrote:

Been to India, they have a British accent, but there are a lot if
differences.
The Telephone service people are sent to school to learn to speak so
someone on
a phone can understand them.


Have you ever HEARD a "British accent"? One of the newest things the
Devil has invented to plague us with is the outsourced Indian cold sales
call. It must do wonders for race relations in the UK when you KNOW that
an Asian accent means that they aren't trying to sell you anything, no,
they just want you to take part in a survey.

Paul Burke

Good Friend, name of "Nigel" just returned from his "Mum's" in Britain. Still
hasn't lost his interesting pattern of speech. Says he can't understand
"Cockney" whatever that is.

I get the calls, I just hang up. The call is also illegal here.

 

[Clarence]

"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:2trr9hF23gie6U1@uni-berlin.de...

Chuck Harris wrote:

the language spoken in the US
today
more closely resembles the English spoken in England 200 years ago, than
does the
language spoken in England today.

The reason is the vast size of the US compared to England. The language
used in
a small community can evolve through creative new words, meanings and
phrases,
without causing confusion, much more quickly than the language used in a
large
geographically expansive country.

That's why Northern English dialects (the most intensively
industrialised parts of the UK, with large immigrant populations-
Flemish, Huguenot, Irish, Cornish- over hundreds of years) retain
Anglo-Saxon and Norse features not found in Standard English, and why in
the US the Deep South dialects so much resemble those of New England, I
suppose.

Paul Burke

I thought that Television had something to do with providing some sense of
"standardizing" the manner of speech in the US. Perhaps the source of that
(TV) was bragging?

 

[Chuck Harris]

Bill Sloman wrote:

Teenagers are are special case - they use aberrant language with the fixed intention of not being understood by the
previous generation. See also "thieve's cant".

Yes, their intention is to obscure, but look at how the teens quickly
change the language that THEY understand. That is evolution at work.

The fact that the U.S. is geographically bigger than England doesn't signify in this context - England has more
different dialects than the US, and a greater variation between the dialects, while Australia, which is about the
same size as the continental U.S.A. has hardly any perceptible regional dialect variation.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me:

USA large -> few dialects
Australia large -> few dialects
England small -> many dialects

Regions with a large number of dialects are a brewing pot for language change.
Regions with few dialects are an indication of a stable language.

That being so, it can be argued that what you speak in England is the aberration.


Not really. English is spoken in a lot of places beside England and the U.S.A. and no single dialect has any
particular claim to pre-emminence.

England certainly has pre-eminence to the English language, they are where
the language developed. Do they *control* the language? No, inspite of
their former role in the spread of the language.

The only country that I am aware of that claims eminence over a language
is France. But then, they are the center of the known universe ;-)

The aberrant spelling to which the OP was objecting, is a slightly different case. Noah Webster "reformed" American
spelling in 1828

http://www.ctstateu.edu/noahweb/biography.html

while the rest of us have stumbled on using Dr.Johnson's spellings. Since English spelling embodies some six
different schemes for coding the phonetics of English into the Latin alphabet, there is probably room for a lot more
reform than Noah Webster's idiosyncratic variations.

Noah Webster, and Benjamin Franklin wanted to make English spelling
phonetic. Their results failed and never gained popularity. I have
seen copies of their "reformed" dictionary, and I cannot recall even
one of their phonetic spellings that made it into the modern dictionary.
Well, that isn't exactly true, if you look at the pronunciation guides, they
are really close to what Webster and Franklin proposed.

In today's US English, 60% of the words in the dictionary
are pronounced differently from their phonetic pronunciation.

Ample evidence that Webster and Franklin's idea failed.

Where Webster and Franklin did succeed, was in making spelling more
uniform. They took a language where spelling varied greatly depending
on where you were educated, and provide a reference of American
spellings. These spellings were not the simple phonetic spellings that
they wanted to have adopted, but rather, the spellings that were commonly
used by Webster, Franklin, Jefferson and others. It is interesting to
notice that the spellings used by Jefferson in his writings exactly match
those in the current American English dictionaries.

-Chuck Harris

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:24:01 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote:

Clarence wrote:
"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:2trr9hF23gie6U1@uni-berlin.de...

Chuck Harris wrote:


the language spoken in the US
today
more closely resembles the English spoken in England 200 years ago, than
does the
language spoken in England today.

The reason is the vast size of the US compared to England. The language
used in
a small community can evolve through creative new words, meanings and
phrases,
without causing confusion, much more quickly than the language used in a
large
geographically expansive country.

That's why Northern English dialects (the most intensively
industrialised parts of the UK, with large immigrant populations-
Flemish, Huguenot, Irish, Cornish- over hundreds of years) retain
Anglo-Saxon and Norse features not found in Standard English, and why in
the US the Deep South dialects so much resemble those of New England, I
suppose.

Paul Burke


I thought that Television had something to do with providing some sense of
"standardizing" the manner of speech in the US. Perhaps the source of that
(TV) was bragging?

Television is having a dramatic affect on the English language.
It is standardizing the US on the Midwestern dialect of US
English.... and it has done so within my lifetime. When I was
a kid, we used to travel throughout the US and Canada quite a lot,
and I used to marvel at the way people in different parts of the
country talked, but now, they all sound mostly the same.

-Chuck

Really? When's the last time y'all traveled down south? Or Minnesohwtah for
that matter.

Bob

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:00:53 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote:

Bob Stephens wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:24:01 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote:

Television is having a dramatic affect on the English language.
It is standardizing the US on the Midwestern dialect of US
English.... and it has done so within my lifetime. When I was
a kid, we used to travel throughout the US and Canada quite a lot,
and I used to marvel at the way people in different parts of the
country talked, but now, they all sound mostly the same.

-Chuck


Really? When's the last time y'all traveled down south? Or Minnesohwtah for
that matter.

Well, I have been in Pennsylvania, New York, West Virginia, Michigan, Ohio,
Ontario, Wisconsin, Maryland and Virginia so far this year. My mother is
from Minnesota. And I have traveled in the South quite extensively over
the last couple of years. And some would say that I live in the south.

-Chuck

Just picking communities from three of those areas that I am familiar with.
Don't you think it would be pretty easy to distinguish between natives of
Brooklyn, Minneapolis and Memphis blindfolded?


Bob

 

[Mike Engelhardt]

Just picking communities from three of those areas
that I am familiar with. Don't you think it would
be pretty easy to distinguish between natives of
Brooklyn, Minneapolis and Memphis blindfolded?

There's a difference between an accent and a dialect.
When I studied German in college I was told me that
I wouldn't be able to freely use it in Germany because
there's somewhere between 165 and 168 different
dialects of German. However, when I lived in Germany,
I found while these dialects exist, it can be
difficult to find people that can still speak them.
I figured progress and/or TV had flattened the
language with some uniformity, though I could still
recognized where people were from because of the
accent.

--Mike

 

[Don Prescott]

Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message news:<2trrg6F23ektkU1@uni-berlin.de>...

Clarence wrote:

Been to India, they have a British accent, but there are a lot if differences.
The Telephone service people are sent to school to learn to speak so someone on
a phone can understand them.


Have you ever HEARD a "British accent"? One of the newest things the
Devil has invented to plague us with is the outsourced Indian cold sales
call. It must do wonders for race relations in the UK when you KNOW that
an Asian accent means that they aren't trying to sell you anything, no,
they just want you to take part in a survey.

Paul Burke

Oh no! Not Clarence! Who IS this guy..? Indian people do NOT have
British accents Clarence. People fom Britain do.... yes, Britain -
that's the largeish island off mainland Europe on the map. People
from India have Indian accents. Yes, I know it's difficult for you to
understand, but just try to remember: people from a given country that
speak English tend to have the accent associated with that
country..... If you say it over and over it just might stick....!

Prescott

 

[Don Prescott]

Well, style is also dictated. "Strunk and White" come to mind.

Clarence, I really don't know what you're on but you come out with
some statements that are impossible to understand. "Strunk and White"
- what on earth does that mean..?

Just for the record, what country are you from...?

Prescott