WinCUPL .pld files to simulate GAL 16V8?...

J

John Robertson

Guest
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only Atmel
version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and not the GAL
files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to be included
with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit of hunting. And I
don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation could
save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but if
something like that is the only option, perhaps there is something less
expensive for very small scale work? The only program I\'ve spotted so
far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for something with less
of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John\'s Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
\"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out.\"
 
On 11/16/2022 10:00, John Robertson wrote:
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only Atmel
version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and not the GAL
files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to be included
with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit of hunting. And I
don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation could
save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but if
something like that is the only option, perhaps there is something less
expensive for very small scale work? The only program I\'ve spotted so
far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for something with less
of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#
Click to expand...

Can\'t help with your request but I have some experience perhaps worth
taking into account.
Over 30 years ago Cupl was the reason I wrote my own GAL compiler.
Wasted me a day or so until I looked at the Jedec file and the fuse map
(back in the day they did publish that sort of thing, long gone days)
and discovered it was generating the wrong logic from my source (was
not taking into account the polarity of the output fed back into the
array).
I doubt cupl has become any better over the years, the 16v8 code
is probably the same they had back then (i.e. \"shite\").
But the 16v8 is fairly simple, you don\'t really need a simulation.
I have never used one and I have squeezed out of it on multiple
occasions whatever was there to squeeze. (I did the same later with
the coolrunner, after it became xilinx I stopped maintaining my
own tool for it (I had written another for it) but their Abel worked
just fine.

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
 
On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 00:00:43 -0800, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:

I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only Atmel
version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and not the GAL
files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to be included
with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit of hunting. And I
don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation could
save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but if
something like that is the only option, perhaps there is something less
expensive for very small scale work? The only program I\'ve spotted so
far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for something with less
of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#
Click to expand...

16V8 is reprogrammable and simple. Just check your work and get it
right the first time, and test it.

We used to use Actel OTP FPGAs, soldered down and not reprogrammable,
and got complex stuff right first try. Just need to be careful.

It\'s basic that the easier it is to change something, the more bugs
there will be. That\'s why Windows NT was compiled thousands of times.
 
On 2022/11/16 8:15 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 10:00, John Robertson wrote:
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only
Atmel version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and not
the GAL files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to be
included with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit of
hunting. And I don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation could
save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but if
something like that is the only option, perhaps there is something
less expensive for very small scale work? The only program I\'ve
spotted so far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for
something with less of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#

Can\'t help with your request but I have some experience perhaps worth
taking into account.
Over 30 years ago Cupl was the reason I wrote my own GAL compiler.
Wasted me a day or so until I looked at the Jedec file and the fuse map
(back in the day they did publish that sort of thing, long gone days)
and discovered it was generating the wrong logic from my source (was
not taking into account the polarity of the output fed back into the
array).
I doubt cupl has become any better over the years, the 16v8 code
is probably the same they had back then (i.e. \"shite\").
But the 16v8 is fairly simple, you don\'t really need a simulation.
I have never used one and I have squeezed out of it on multiple
occasions whatever was there to squeeze. (I did the same later with
the coolrunner, after it became xilinx I stopped maintaining my
own tool for it (I had written another for it) but their Abel worked
just fine.

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/
Click to expand...

I\'m new at trying to setup a GAL, and like the idea of a simulator so I
can see if the code is doing what it should be doing as I build up the
complexity.

You probably live and breath coding, I poke at it with a \'stick\'
(WinCUPL) in the hopes of getting it to do what I want...

I can burn 16V8s until the cows come home but that is like using
sneakernet all over again!

John :-#)#


--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John\'s Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
\"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out.\"


 
On 11/16/2022 20:00, John Robertson wrote:
On 2022/11/16 8:15 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 10:00, John Robertson wrote:
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only
Atmel version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and
not the GAL files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to
be included with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit of
hunting. And I don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation
could save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but
if something like that is the only option, perhaps there is something
less expensive for very small scale work? The only program I\'ve
spotted so far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for
something with less of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#

Can\'t help with your request but I have some experience perhaps worth
taking into account.
Over 30 years ago Cupl was the reason I wrote my own GAL compiler.
Wasted me a day or so until I looked at the Jedec file and the fuse map
(back in the day they did publish that sort of thing, long gone days)
and discovered it was generating the wrong logic from my source (was
not taking into account the polarity of the output fed back into the
array).
I doubt cupl has become any better over the years, the 16v8 code
is probably the same they had back then (i.e. \"shite\").
But the 16v8 is fairly simple, you don\'t really need a simulation.
I have never used one and I have squeezed out of it on multiple
occasions whatever was there to squeeze. (I did the same later with
the coolrunner, after it became xilinx I stopped maintaining my
own tool for it (I had written another for it) but their Abel worked
just fine.

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/


I\'m new at trying to setup a GAL, and like the idea of a simulator so I
can see if the code is doing what it should be doing as I build up the
complexity.

You probably live and breath coding, I poke at it with a \'stick\'
(WinCUPL) in the hopes of getting it to do what I want...

I can burn 16V8s until the cows come home but that is like using
sneakernet all over again!

John :-#)#
Click to expand...
In case you have no option other than cupl just watch out for outputs
you feed back into the array; IIRC if you define them active high
it works, but if you define them active low it assumes they are
active high and messes the whole logic up. Not sure how exactly
it was, like I said 30+ years ago, but something like that, just
be cautious about that.
 
On 2022/11/16 10:11 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 20:00, John Robertson wrote:
On 2022/11/16 8:15 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 10:00, John Robertson wrote:
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL to
simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the only
Atmel version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files, and
not the GAL files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files used to
be included with the program, but I can\'t find any with a fair bit
of hunting. And I don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation
could save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but
if something like that is the only option, perhaps there is
something less expensive for very small scale work? The only program
I\'ve spotted so far is something called vhdl-2008. I was hoping for
something with less of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#

Can\'t help with your request but I have some experience perhaps worth
taking into account.
Over 30 years ago Cupl was the reason I wrote my own GAL compiler.
Wasted me a day or so until I looked at the Jedec file and the fuse map
(back in the day they did publish that sort of thing, long gone days)
and discovered it was generating the wrong logic from my source (was
not taking into account the polarity of the output fed back into the
array).
I doubt cupl has become any better over the years, the 16v8 code
is probably the same they had back then (i.e. \"shite\").
But the 16v8 is fairly simple, you don\'t really need a simulation.
I have never used one and I have squeezed out of it on multiple
occasions whatever was there to squeeze. (I did the same later with
the coolrunner, after it became xilinx I stopped maintaining my
own tool for it (I had written another for it) but their Abel worked
just fine.

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/


I\'m new at trying to setup a GAL, and like the idea of a simulator so
I can see if the code is doing what it should be doing as I build up
the complexity.

You probably live and breath coding, I poke at it with a \'stick\'
(WinCUPL) in the hopes of getting it to do what I want...

I can burn 16V8s until the cows come home but that is like using
sneakernet all over again!

John :-#)#

In case you have no option other than cupl just watch out for outputs
you feed back into the array; IIRC if you define them active high
it works, but if you define them active low it assumes they are
active high and messes the whole logic up. Not sure how exactly
it was, like I said 30+ years ago, but something like that, just
be cautious about that.
Click to expand...

I was wrong about WinCPUL not having the simulator setting for the 16V8,
it was my not understanding how to set the simulator up that was the
problem. My assumptions were wrong...
I now have the simulator set up, but it isn\'t yet working. Could be me,
and I\'ve read a bunch of reports that CUPL was buggy so it may be the
program. We shall see...

Thanks for your advice about output feedback being fussy, that is
appreciated!

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John\'s Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
\"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out.\"


 
On 2022/11/16 10:26 p.m., John Robertson wrote:
On 2022/11/16 10:11 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 20:00, John Robertson wrote:
On 2022/11/16 8:15 a.m., Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 11/16/2022 10:00, John Robertson wrote:
I\'m doing a wee bit of GAL encoding and would like to use WinCUPL
to simulate the design on a GAL 16V8 I wish to use. However the
only Atmel version I can find of WinCUPL just has the FIT5_0 files,
and not the GAL files. It looks like the ATF16V8B(etc).pld files
used to be included with the program, but I can\'t find any with a
fair bit of hunting. And I don\'t think I am that blind.

WinCUPL does build the file for burning the GALs, but simulation
could save a fair bit of time.

I have little interest in Proteus, which is one good simulator, but
if something like that is the only option, perhaps there is
something less expensive for very small scale work? The only
program I\'ve spotted so far is something called vhdl-2008. I was
hoping for something with less of a learning curve...

Thanks!

John :-#)#

Can\'t help with your request but I have some experience perhaps worth
taking into account.
Over 30 years ago Cupl was the reason I wrote my own GAL compiler.
Wasted me a day or so until I looked at the Jedec file and the fuse map
(back in the day they did publish that sort of thing, long gone days)
and discovered it was generating the wrong logic from my source (was
not taking into account the polarity of the output fed back into the
array).
I doubt cupl has become any better over the years, the 16v8 code
is probably the same they had back then (i.e. \"shite\").
But the 16v8 is fairly simple, you don\'t really need a simulation.
I have never used one and I have squeezed out of it on multiple
occasions whatever was there to squeeze. (I did the same later with
the coolrunner, after it became xilinx I stopped maintaining my
own tool for it (I had written another for it) but their Abel worked
just fine.

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/


I\'m new at trying to setup a GAL, and like the idea of a simulator so
I can see if the code is doing what it should be doing as I build up
the complexity.

You probably live and breath coding, I poke at it with a \'stick\'
(WinCUPL) in the hopes of getting it to do what I want...

I can burn 16V8s until the cows come home but that is like using
sneakernet all over again!

John :-#)#

In case you have no option other than cupl just watch out for outputs
you feed back into the array; IIRC if you define them active high
it works, but if you define them active low it assumes they are
active high and messes the whole logic up. Not sure how exactly
it was, like I said 30+ years ago, but something like that, just
be cautious about that.

I was wrong about WinCPUL not having the simulator setting for the 16V8,
it was my not understanding how to set the simulator up that was the
problem. My assumptions were wrong...
I now have the simulator set up, but it isn\'t yet working. Could be me,
and I\'ve read a bunch of reports that CUPL was buggy so it may be the
program. We shall see...

Thanks for your advice about output feedback being fussy, that is
appreciated!

John :-#)#
Click to expand...

Simulator works properly now that I understand it. So for this simple
device (GAL16V8) I can verify the codes and see what the results are
(outputs) for any state introduced on the inputs. We aren\'t using
feedback from outputs, so probably not going to run into the problems
that Dimiter pointed out, but will keep an eye out none the less.

Thanks!

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John\'s Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
\"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out.\"


 
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