Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android

[Aardvarks]

Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
What can Google possibly latch onto to spy on our Android actions?

Specific things only.
Not Marketing crap please.

The iOS guys are constantly saying that just using Android alone is
allowing Google to spy on us, which, they say, Apple doesn't do. They say
they're much safer from spying on iOS than we are on Android.

Ok. Where's the beef?
(The iOS guys are like your basic used-car salespeople - they almost never
tell the truth and they can only spout what the Marketing guys tell them to
say - so we're not going to get any provable level of detail from them).

Even though we won't likely get anything from iOS guys that they didn't
read off of a glossy marketing brochure, I'll cc them, just in case they do
know something of what they constantly talk about.

Other than Google Mail and Google Maps and Google browsers (and other apps
common to both platforms), what exactly are they talking about when they
constantly imply they're safer from spying on iOS than on Android?

Specifically, what does Google latch on to in order to "spy" on our Android
activities that Apple doesn't likewise do?

The Apple guys get all their ideas from the admittedly clever Marketing
machine (which knows how to play to their intense fear) so I doubt they'll
be providing any real details to their accusations - yet they still
constantly accuse the Android users of being spied upon by Google simply
for using Android.

I just want to find out the correct answer to the question.

Therefore, I'm just asking *how* Google can spy on us when we are using
Android (that can't be likewise done when were using iOS)?

I maintain a pretty clean single-desktop-pane privacy settings ship, where
I keep a copy of all known Google-specific apps, to ensure I'm not logged
into any one of them: http://i.cubeupload.com/oexktG.gif

And, as you know, I've recently deleted my Google Play ID, where the
Android phone works just fine without a Google ID - so Google can't latch
onto my Google Play ID (which no longer even exists) to "spy" on my Android
activities.

Likewise, I've always had "Location services" set to the recommended
privacy settings, so, apps aren't allowed to use my location:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ugZ1fc.gif

In addition, using App Ops Starter, I've turned off location access to all
Android apps that I don't think need this information, for example:
- Android Settings: http://i.cubeupload.com/mYSCjc.gif
- Network Location: http://i.cubeupload.com/rfmqc7.gif
- Android IP Service: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZCV3yC.gif
etc.

Furthermore, I have location turned off for non-Android apps also, for
example:
- Google Play Services: http://i.cubeupload.com/KbMWVM.gif
- Google Search: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZUiP01.gif
- ES File Explorer: http://i.cubeupload.com/mX8GaS.gif
etc.

Even though the "Advertising ID" menu (and a bunch of other things) are now
no longer in the Android settings menus, I still can bring up "Google
Settings" separately:
http://i.cubeupload.com/N97c9S.gif

And, in those "Google Settings", I can easily reset the "Advertising ID":
http://i.cubeupload.com/SVpOs2.gif

So, without a static "Advertising ID" (and ignoring Google Maps and Google
Mail, which are special cross-platform apps that exist on iOS also), what
Android-specific things can Google possibly latch off of to spy on us while
we're using our Android devices that Apple doesn't also do on iOS?

 

[Aardvarks]

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:43:34 -0400, nospam wrote:

> you've been told the answer numerous times and you just don't listen.

I'm tired of your senseless riddles & rumor mongering UFO fears.
You don't know the answer; you only know Apple marketing glossy literature.

Facts are all that we ask for here.
Not your senseless self-serving fear-mongering idiotic riddles.

I provided facts in the OP.
Now it's time to find out the answer from someone who knows how Android
works (which isn't me - and it certainly isn't you).

TO ANDROID USERS:
Do you know *how* Google can "spy" on us, like the iOS users allude to?

TO IOS USERS:
You're welcome to add value - but please don't give us only glossy
marketing FUD sans a single verifiable detail.

 

[nospam]

In article <nnqspi$1cqq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Aardvarks
<aardvarks@a.b.c.com> wrote:


> I just want to find out the correct answer to the question.

no you don't.

you've been told the answer numerous times and you just don't listen.

 

[Aardvarks]

On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:28:23 -0400, tlvp wrote:

> You tell me. You seem to be the one that's beefing

I did provide all the facts I knew.
You provided absolutely nothing of any value (so why do you bother?).

1. I don't log into Google apps: http://i.cubeupload.com/oexktG.gif
2. I turn off location services: http://i.cubeupload.com/ugZ1fc.gif
3. I turn off all Android location access:
- Android Settings: http://i.cubeupload.com/mYSCjc.gif
- Network Location: http://i.cubeupload.com/rfmqc7.gif
- Android IP Service: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZCV3yC.gif
- Google Play Services: http://i.cubeupload.com/KbMWVM.gif
- Google Search: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZUiP01.gif
- ES File Explorer: http://i.cubeupload.com/mX8GaS.gif
etc.
4. Without a Google Account, it may very well be that the
Advertising ID no longer exists; but, just in case, I tap on
Google Settings to change it. http://i.cubeupload.com/SVpOs2.gif

You clearly know even less than I do.
So you'll *never* be able to answer the simple question.

You live off of fear inculcated in you by Apple Marketing.
Me?
I just want the facts.

So I ask the factual question, which, can be summarized as:
a. Does not having a Google Play account eliminate the Advertising ID?
(Deleting the Google Play account "appears" to remove all vestiges of the
Advertising ID from the Android settings - so that "might" be the case that
there is no longer an Advertising ID - but that remains to be proven.)

b. Ignoring cross-platform apps such as Google Maps and Google Mail (which
exist on iOS also), what Android-specific privacy things can Google
possibly latch off of to spy on us while we're using our Android devices
that Apple doesn't also do on iOS?

So far, nobody knows of anything.

The Apple Apologists (predictably) bring up nothing whatsoever of factual
value (as if they all work for Apple Marketing because they live and
breathe fear in everything they do).

Facts don't scare me like they scare them.
I'm hoping the Android aficionados will know the facts.

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 03:18:12 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:

> a. Does not having a Google Play account eliminate the Advertising ID?

Facts only.

It seems Apple iOS devices have a resettable Identifier for Advertisers
(IDFA), which can be rest on iOS devices using:
Settings->Privacy->Advertising->Reset Advertising Identifier.

So, in that sense, iOS and Google seems to be similar; although it appears
that the Google Advertising ID "may" be easily removable on non-rooted
devices simply by deleting your Google Play account (still working on that
premise).

Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID).

 

[Aardvarks]

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:51:07 -0400, nospam wrote:

Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID).

which apps cannot access and use to identify users.

It seems that Google may have copied Apple in creating the Advertising ID
in the first place, as stated in this article:
http://www.businessinsider.com/googles-new-advertising-id-is-now-live-and-tracking-new-android-phonesthis-is-what-it-looks-like-2014-1

However, apparently very much unlike the Apple Advertising ID (IDFA), it is
well known that Android users have long had the opportunity to opt out of
Advertising ID (AdID) based tracking.

Even more unlike the Apple Advertising ID (IDFA), so far, it seems that
deleting the Android Google Play account may have also deleted the entire
existence of the Advertising ID (AdID).

The first clue is that the entire concept of the Advertising ID instantly
disappeared from the Android settings menu when the Google Play account was
removed.

Another clue is this developer web page which states that the advertising
ID works only when Google Play Services is available:
https://developers.google.com/android/reference/com/google/android/gms/ads/identifier/AdvertisingIdClient

This article says the Advertising ID came from Google Play Services 4.0,
which no longer exists on my phone, which implies no Advertising ID:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/01/google-play-services-4-0-requires-developers-to-use-the-new-advertising-id-to-identify-your-device-enforcement-starts-aug-2014/

This article confirms that the AdID is composed from the Google Play
account, which doesn't even exist, so it's probably not possible to
generate a valid AdID:
http://ccm.net/faq/34759-android-prevent-apps-from-using-your-advertising-id

Probably the strongest evidence is in this article, which pretty much says
that without Google Play Services (GPS), the advertising ID (AdID) can't be
used by applications:
https://dev.twitter.com/mopub/android/google-advertising-id-faq

But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing.

Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the
Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the
generation or use of the Advertising ID?

 

[tlvp]

On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:37:23 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:

> Ok. Where's the beef?

You tell me. You seem to be the one that's beefing . Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

[nospam]

In article <nnrp8s$d84$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Aardvarks
<aardvarks@a.b.c.com> wrote:

> Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID).

which apps cannot access and use to identify users.

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:21:07 -0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:

But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing.

Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the
Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the
generation or use of the Advertising ID?

Facts only.

While I had already limited Google Play Services using App Ops Starter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/AAUQuo.gif

To test how the non-rooted Android device handles the lack of both a Google
Play account and Google Play Services, I removed or disabled these "apps"
from my Android phone using the Android Application Manager:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PV4AHO.gif

1. Removing the Google Play Store app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/aWDZ9H.gif

2. Disabling the Google Play Services app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Y6XcAh.gif

3. Disabling the Google Services Framework app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6h3Whb.gif

The result was that my admittedly cleanly organized desktop:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Uld6T3.gif

Just got cleaner, in that the Google Play app disappeared:
http://i.cubeupload.com/pkGmQ3.gif

And, even the "Google Settings" app disappeared!
http://i.cubeupload.com/DoKW6g.gif

Two facts:
a. Deleting the Google Play account removed all mention of the Advertising
ID (AdID) from the Android settings, but the "Google Settings" app icon
remained, which had a menu for the Advertising ID.

b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the
"Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in
the Android device (that I can find).

One hypothesis for the Android aficionados:
- Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device?
If not - where is it?

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 06:34:07 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:

Two facts:
a. Deleting the Google Play account removed all mention of the Advertising
ID (AdID) from the Android settings, but the "Google Settings" app icon
remained, which had a menu for the Advertising ID.

b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the
"Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in
the Android device (that I can find).

One hypothesis for the Android aficionados:
- Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device?
If not - where is it?

Facts only - not fear mongering.

I rebooted the phone to see if the removal and disabling of the Google Play
Store app and Google Play Services and Google Services Framework would come
back, but they seem to have stayed off upon inspection after reboot.

The great news is that I can't find the Advertising ID anywhere on the
Android system (this is an unrooted phone - so - to my knowledge - I'm the
first one to document this - although I can't be the only one to have
thought of something this simple).

While it seems the Advertising ID is now entirely gone from my Android
phone, one minor gotcha was that *some* of the Google apps fail to work
with the three changes below:
1. Removing the Google Play Store app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/aWDZ9H.gif

2. Disabling the Google Play Services app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Y6XcAh.gif

3. Disabling the Google Services Framework app:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6h3Whb.gif

Surprisingly, Google Maps still works but the Google Youtube App fails, by
giving the clear message that Google Play needs to be "updated". Luckily,
saving a youtube link from Firefox to the deskop completely replaces that
pushbutton youtube app, so there's no loss in functionality.

More surprisingly, the *default* SMS app that came with the Samsung Galaxy
S3 (yellow and white envelope icon), failed to send messages. This was also
easily worked around simply by installing a different SMS app from F-Droid,
named QSSMS, which worked fine in back-and-forth test messages to the iOS
user who switched from Android Nexus 5 to iPhone 6 a few weeks ago.

I will test this further, but, it seems that everything else is working,
but that there is no Advertising ID nor Google Play account nor even Google
Play Services running on this unrooted Android phone.

Given that fact, what could Google possibly latch on to in order to invade
privacy?

Can the iOS users likewise wipe out the Apple advertising ID altogether?

 

[Aardvarks]

On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:43:09 -0700, Savageduck wrote:

The only fact here is, you are talking to yourself.
...and you are answering. There is something disturbing in that.

What's interesting is that you know *absolutely nothing* about this topic,
yet, you still post your usual Apple-Marketing-induced fear-driven drivel.

I am adding value to the overall knowledge level.
If I'm the only one in this ng capable of adding value - so be it.

For example, it seems that the primitive iOS operating system is far less
private than the more advanced Android operating system at this point
simply because I've shown it's easy to completely eliminate the advertising
id on Android.

Once I confirm that's the case, I'll see if it's possible to completely
eliminate the similar iOS Advertising ID; but knowing how limiting iOS is,
I suspect I'll have to "just give up" like you guys do all the time on iOS.

Meanwhile, if I happen to know more than the rest of you about how to
easily make Android private, then so be it. It's sad, because I know next
to nothing about either iOS or Android - but if I happen to know more than
anyone here does - that's just a fact.

The great news is that it was trivial to remove the Google Play account,
which, I think, in and of itself, is all that's needed.

It was also trivial to removed and/or disable the Google Services
applications and Google Framework applications - where the repercussions
were extremely minimal - so that's also good news.

1. Some Google apps stopped working (e.g., Youtube).
2. They were easily replaced.
3. One Android system app stopped working (i.e., Messages).
4. Likewise, that was easily replaced.

I'll keep testing and reporting back the results.

I doubt the backward Apple-Marketing-driven iOS users can ever add the
slightest bit of value to a technical thread such as this, so, I mostly ask
the far more sophisticated Android aficionados if they have similar
experiences where all vestiges of the Google phoning home have been so
easily eliminated.

 

[Savageduck]

On 2016-08-03 06:34:07 +0000, Aardvarks <aardvarks@a.b.c.com> said:

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:21:07 -0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:

But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing.

Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the
Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the
generation or use of the Advertising ID?

Facts only.

The only fact here is, you are talking to yourself.
....and you are answering. There is something disturbing in that.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

 

[Michael Eyd]

Am 03.08.2016 um 08:34 schrieb Aardvarks:

b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the
"Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in
the Android device (that I can find).

One hypothesis for the Android aficionados:
- Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device?
If not - where is it?

You seem to be unaware of the difference between data shown on a screen
and data stored internally in a computer system. The only thing you've
proven above is that you don't see this ID anymore in any (user
accessible) screen.

But you can't possibly know (at this time, after performing the steps
you outlined) whether it's still stored somewhere in the system, nor
whether it's still accessible by apps (or Android itself) whenever they
choose to do so.

Michael

 

[Michael Eyd]

Am 03.08.2016 um 08:47 schrieb Aardvarks:

I will test this further, but, it seems that everything else is working,
but that there is no Advertising ID

How do you know that? Not having it displayed on any screen is by no
means the same as it not being there at all.

Given that fact, what could Google possibly latch on to in order to invade
privacy?

There are other ways to identify a device, and we told you some weeks
ago in another thread. IIRC you never came back on my statements,
therefore I won't bring them up again.

> Can the iOS users likewise wipe out the Apple advertising ID altogether?

'Likewise'? You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out.

And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app,
where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even
reset the ADID (by generating a new one).

In which way is that less secure than your way, which definitively is
too complex for almost all users?

Michael

 

[Michael Eyd]

Am 02.08.2016 um 21:37 schrieb Aardvarks:

(The iOS guys are like your basic used-car salespeople - they almost never
tell the truth and they can only spout what the Marketing guys tell them to
say - so we're not going to get any provable level of detail from them).

Even though we won't likely get anything from iOS guys that they didn't
read off of a glossy marketing brochure, I'll cc them, just in case they do
know something of what they constantly talk about.

...

The Apple guys get all their ideas from the admittedly clever Marketing
machine (which knows how to play to their intense fear) so I doubt they'll
be providing any real details to their accusations - yet they still
constantly accuse the Android users of being spied upon by Google simply
for using Android.

Do you really think it to be a good start of a discussion insulting one
of the groups you hope to be participating? Me not...

> I just want to find out the correct answer to the question.

No you don't, you want your view of the world confirmed. Otherwise you
wouldn't have felt the need to insult the group that is most likely to
be of a different opinion.

Michael

 

[nospam]

In article <nnsc8q$ft5$2@news.sap-ag.de>, Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de>
wrote:

I just want to find out the correct answer to the question.

No you don't, you want your view of the world confirmed. Otherwise you
wouldn't have felt the need to insult the group that is most likely to
be of a different opinion.

exactly

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:04:13 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:

> You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out.

I am a scientist.

1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less
private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the
advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous
references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment
that I devised and published out in the open.

2. Like any true scientist, I provided the exact steps to my *experiment*,
which anyone on the planet can reproduce with any similar Android phone
(mine is an S3 on Android 4.3).

3. And, like a true scientist, I provided the results and conclusion that
the advertising ID was trivially easily completely eliminated from the
Android system. Like any true scientist, I know *more* needs to be
explored, such as the question of whether the Advertising ID is hidden
somehow, and that similar tests need to be performed to see if it is as
easy to eliminate the advertising ID on iOS as it was on Android.

This is what scientists do.
This is fact.

Now, what do *you* provide?

Words?
Tht's it?
Just words?

You are not a scientist.

You, and nospam and Savageduck and tlvp, etc., are merely iOS apologists
who don't like the fact that it's trivially easy to completely eliminate
the advertising ID on Android, while it's probably almost impossible to do
the same privacy tweak on iOS.

And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app,
where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even
reset the ADID (by generating a new one).

Heh heh ... you really felt the need to say that?
Really?

Even nospam and Savageduck and tlvp didn't feel the need to say that what
you have on Apple iOS is the same as what every Android user already has
with respect to *resetting* the advertising ID and telling advertisers not
to use it.

You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure
nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand
everything that I write).

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:57:46 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:

You seem to be unaware of the difference between data shown on a screen
and data stored internally in a computer system. The only thing you've
proven above is that you don't see this ID anymore in any (user
accessible) screen.

But you can't possibly know (at this time, after performing the steps
you outlined) whether it's still stored somewhere in the system, nor
whether it's still accessible by apps (or Android itself) whenever they
choose to do so.

I am a scientist.

1. I proposed my hypothesis & my references backing it up.
2. I showed the exact steps of my experiment for anyone to reproduce.
3. I showed the results for anyone to prove wrong.

And what do you provide?

You *saying* there is a super-secret hidden secret advertising ID that is
secretly generated outside the well-known mechanisms that the references
prove exist, merely means that you're stretching for a conspiracy theory to
support your erroneous beliefs.

What are your references?
Where is your experiment?
Where is your proof?

You may as well tell me the earth is flat.

I often wonder why you Apple people resort to such lies, but I finally
figured why you make up *everything* in your self-imposed contrived world
that Apple Marketing so safely (says they have) built for you:
a. You're scared witless (hoping that Apple Marketing will protect you)
b. You only care about style (which Apple Marketing surely provides)
c. You accept single-button-mouse solutions (from Apple Marketing)

Fact:
- It's trivially easy to completely eliminate the Advertising ID from an
unrooted Android device (my test was on an S3 with Android 4.3).

Hypothesis:
- It's impossible to do the same privacy tweak on unrooted iOS.

I'm a scientist. I'm not afraid of facts.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Aardvarks]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 15:33:48 -0400, nospam wrote:

Where is your proof?

apple and android developer documentation.

Remember: I already referenced the exact android developer documentation
which supported the experiment that I devised based on reading those
documents (which told me exactly which services generated the AdID!).

As always, you reference absolutely nothing.
This used to bother me.

Until I realized...
a. You are afraid of facts
b. You want Apple Marketing to save you from these facts
c. They can't - because facts are facts (you thrive on Marketing lies).

Fact:
- It's trivially easy to completely eliminate the Advertising ID from an
unrooted Android device (my test was on an S3 with Android 4.3).

Hypothesis:
- It's impossible to do the same privacy tweak on unrooted iOS.

I'm a scientist.
I'm not afraid of facts.

Prove me wrong in that apple and android development document you so
nebulously cite.

 

[nospam]

In article <nntfp7$qfm$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Aardvarks
<aardvarks@a.b.c.com> wrote:

You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out.

I am a scientist.

not a very good one.

1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less
private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the
advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous
references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment
that I devised and published out in the open.

all of which have been refuted.

instead of discussing these supposed tests, you start insulting and
bashing anyone that doesn't agree.

put simply: you have *no* idea what's going on or how things work.

You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure
nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand
everything that I write).

the first part is more of your bullshit, but for the second part,
*far* more than you realize.