Who invented the Y-factor meeasurement technique?

[Dave]

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement? I see it either not referenced at
all, or references to HP/Agiilent application notes or books, but can't
find the first publication of the method.


Anyone know why its called Y-factor?

 

[night soil dalits]

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement? I see it either not referenced at
all, or references to HP/Agiilent application notes or books, but can't
find the first publication of the method.


Anyone know why its called Y-factor?

perhaps referenced to y factors for automated testing (?)
There are y, h, and s parameters that characterize a four port device
and you can convert one set into another etc. I think y came first. HP
should have had it.

 

[Dave]

night soil dalits wrote:

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement? I see it either not referenced at
all, or references to HP/Agiilent application notes or books, but can't
find the first publication of the method.


Anyone know why its called Y-factor?


perhaps referenced to y factors for automated testing (?)
There are y, h, and s parameters that characterize a four port device
and you can convert one set into another etc. I think y came first.

But Y is admittance IIRC.

HP
should have had it.

But what should HP have? Sure they have the application notes that
describe using the y-factor method to compute noise figure or noise
temperature, but that is it. Their application note (AN 57-2) makes no
reference to it, and nor does SN 57-1, which itself has lots of
references to old material. But the y-factor is not referenced - only
mentioned.

 

[rex]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:43:51 +0100, Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:

But Y is admittance IIRC.

Not in noise figure measurement.

 

[rex]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:43:51 +0100, Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:

Their application note (AN 57-2) makes no
reference to it, and nor does SN 57-1, which itself has lots of
references to old material.

Quoting from my HP 57-1, in the section "Measurement of Noise Figure and
Te":

"The noise powers at the output of the DUT are often labeled N2
(corresponding to Th) and N1 (corresponding to Tc). The ratio N2/N1, is
called the Y factor."

---
So you missed it or it got deleted in the ones you have. It is defined
in the HP docs, and I presume HP was the original definer of the term,
but I could be wrong about that. In 57-1 (which has lots of references
to other work), I didn't see any references in the section where Y
factor is defined.

So, to my knowledge, HP invented the term. I think they also invented
S-parameters. More reason why I'm revolted by the HP/Agilent
redefinition.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

Dave wrote:

night soil dalits wrote:

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement? I see it either not referenced at
all, or references to HP/Agiilent application notes or books, but can't
find the first publication of the method.

[...]
But what should HP have? Sure they have the application notes that
describe using the y-factor method [...] But the y-factor is not referenced
- only mentioned.

I've been rummaging through my references, and while I haven't seen
the actual definition, two papers that I _do_ have mention that this
method was standardised in around 1957.

Perhaps this will bring enlightenment...

H.A. Haus et al., "IRE standards on methods of measuring noise in
linear twoports", 1959, Proc. IRE, vol. 48, no. 1, pp. 60 68,
January 1960.

I'll try to look it up, but I'm afraid our library isn't old enough.

Regards,
Jeroen Belleman

 

[Dave]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

Dave wrote:

night soil dalits wrote:

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement? I see it either not referenced at
all, or references to HP/Agiilent application notes or books, but can't
find the first publication of the method.


[...]
But what should HP have? Sure they have the application notes that
describe using the y-factor method [...] But the y-factor is not
referenced - only mentioned.


I've been rummaging through my references, and while I haven't seen
the actual definition, two papers that I _do_ have mention that this
method was standardised in around 1957.

Perhaps this will bring enlightenment...

H.A. Haus et al., "IRE standards on methods of measuring noise in
linear twoports", 1959, Proc. IRE, vol. 48, no. 1, pp. 60 68,
January 1960.

Thanks, I should be able to find that.

Someone else gave me these as possible sources

H.A. Haus, "Description of the Noise Performance of Amplifiers and
Receiving Systems," Proc. IEEE, March 1963, p. 436-442
(and other papers in that issue)

C.K.S. Miller, et. al. " Noise Standards, Measurements, and Receiver
Noise Definitions," Proc. IEEE, June 1967, p. 865-877.

these are from:
R. Pettai, Noise in Receiving Systems, Wiley, 1984.

I'll try to look it up, but I'm afraid our library isn't old enough.

Regards,
Jeroen Belleman

 

[Dave]

rex wrote:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:43:51 +0100, Dave <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote:


Their application note (AN 57-2) makes no
reference to it, and nor does SN 57-1, which itself has lots of
references to old material.


Quoting from my HP 57-1, in the section "Measurement of Noise Figure and
Te":

"The noise powers at the output of the DUT are often labeled N2
(corresponding to Th) and N1 (corresponding to Tc). The ratio N2/N1, is
called the Y factor."

I know what it is defined as. I don't want that. Mr (Dr. or whatever)
Wheatstone invented the bridge. I suspect it would not take me too much
hassle to find where that was first published.


Whoever invented Y-factor, probably published it in a scientific
journal. If it was invented inside HP, it might well be in the Hewlett
Packard Journal, but I have no way of searching that. But their articles
tended to go into IEEE journals too.

---
So you missed it or it got deleted in the ones you have. It is defined
in the HP docs, and I presume HP was the original definer of the term,

what makes you presume that?

but I could be wrong about that. In 57-1 (which has lots of references
to other work), I didn't see any references in the section where Y
factor is defined.

No, I agree the reference is missing in 57-1. I think it should have
been there. I am 99% sure I know the person who wrote that application
note, and are 99% sure he would have added it, had he known it. But of
course, that's an application note, not a PhD thesis.

So, to my knowledge, HP invented the term. I think they also invented
S-parameters. More reason why I'm revolted by the HP/Agilent
redefinition.

It's also not obvious why it is called "Y" factor.

I can sort of understnad why scattering parameters have the name they
do. particles scatter light both back and forward (and to the sides too
it must be said). But Y factor I have no idea.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

Dave wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
Perhaps this will bring enlightenment...

H.A. Haus et al., "IRE standards on methods of measuring noise in
linear twoports", 1959, Proc. IRE, vol. 48, no. 1, pp. 60 68,
January 1960.

I found the paper. It deals essentially with the effects of source
and load admittance on the measured noise levels. So, though there
are Ys all over it, it's not what you were looking for. It contains
no other references either, so that's a dead end.

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

For a few days, you can get a scanned copy of the article on
http://www.cern.ch/jeroen/tmp/Y-method.pdf . Sorry for the poor
quality.

Regards,
Jeroen Belleman

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:24:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

There is only God and MIT. What else do you want ?

For a few days, you can get a scanned copy of the article on
http://www.cern.ch/jeroen/tmp/Y-method.pdf . Sorry for the poor
quality.

Regards,
Jeroen Belleman

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Fred Abse]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:44:21 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

There is only God and MIT.

But not necessarily in that order?



--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[Keith Williams]

In article <ek4kf1tvptd5i3rl1t4q756ifutisedh36@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:24:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

There is only God and MIT. What else do you want ?

Opposites?

--
Keith

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:57:28 +0100, Fred Abse
<excretatauris@cerebrumconfus.it> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:44:21 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

There is only God and MIT.

But not necessarily in that order?

Keerect ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:58:23 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:

In article <ek4kf1tvptd5i3rl1t4q756ifutisedh36@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:24:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

There is only God and MIT. What else do you want ?

Opposites?

Why, Keith? Don't you believe in "intelligent design" ?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Keith Williams]

In article <1hhkf1p70s9rha7bqvffkpbkvt2uuc025j@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:58:23 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote:

In article <ek4kf1tvptd5i3rl1t4q756ifutisedh36@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:24:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

There is only God and MIT. What else do you want ?

Opposites?

Why, Keith? Don't you believe in "intelligent design" ?

No. I don't believe in Satan either, which is why I didn't go to MIT.
;-)

--
Keith

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:15:58 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:

In article <1hhkf1p70s9rha7bqvffkpbkvt2uuc025j@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:58:23 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote:

In article <ek4kf1tvptd5i3rl1t4q756ifutisedh36@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:24:33 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]

But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman

So, I think I got the right one, this time. The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,
and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

There is only God and MIT. What else do you want ?

Opposites?

Why, Keith? Don't you believe in "intelligent design" ?

No. I don't believe in Satan either, which is why I didn't go to MIT.
;-)

Smirk ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Howard Swain]

Hi Dave,

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement?

Could you give some more details about the particular
measurement process you are interested in?


--
Thanks,
Howard
hswain@ix.netcom.com

 

[Dave]

Howard Swain wrote:

Hi Dave,

"Dave" <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:42f7e8d4@212.67.96.135...

Does anyone have a reference to the invention of the Y-factor technique
used for noise figure measurement?


Could you give some more details about the particular
measurement process you are interested in?


It's a method of measuring amplifier noise figure at RF and Microwave

frequencies.

A number of methods are documented in Agilent application note AN 57-1
titled "Fundamentals of RF and Microwave Noise Figure Measurement"

http://www.home.agilent.com/cgi-bin/pub/agilent/reuse/cp_ReferenceRedirector.jsp?CONTENT_NAME=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&CONTENT_KEY=1000001634%3Aepsg%3Aapn&STRNID=03&LANGUAGE_CODE=eng&COUNTRY_CODE=GB

and the Y-factor is covered in detail in AN 57-2 titled " Noise Figure
Measurement Accuracy: The Y-Factor Method (AN 57-2)"


http://www.home.agilent.com/cgi-bin/pub/agilent/reuse/cp_ReferenceRedirector.jsp?CONTENT_NAME=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&CONTENT_KEY=1000000179%3Aepsg%3Aapn&STRNID=03&LANGUAGE_CODE=eng&COUNTRY_CODE=GB

 

[Dave]

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

Jeroen Belleman wrote:
[...]


But you piqued my curiosity. I'll do some more searching.

Back later,
Jeroen Belleman


So, I think I got the right one, this time.

Thanks.

The earliest description
of the Y-factor method of noise measurement I found is:

H.A. Haus et al., "Description of the noise performance of amplifiers
and receiving systems", Proc. IEEE, vol.51, March 1963, pp436-442

At least the wording suggests that the concept was newly introduced here,

Yes, I would agree it does, although the wording is no different from
Agilent application notes, or most other references on the subject. They
all seem to just mention it.

It's also not obvious that one or two people together came up with it
either, with the 6 authors being from 6 different labs.

and there are no further references. Then again, I did get the impression
that Mr. Haus' commission had a habit of omitting useful references...

Yes, I agree there.

For a few days, you can get a scanned copy of the article on
http://www.cern.ch/jeroen/tmp/Y-method.pdf . Sorry for the poor
quality.

Thanks, my next challange it to try to find an earlier reference. I know
a book

Regards,
Jeroen Belleman