water analogy- a simple calculator

[F*cking French]

Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

Maybe someone can help me with that.

Best regards,

Thomas

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2011-01-06, F*cking French <vaillyth@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

It's not exactly simple

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_machinery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_%28electronics%29

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

 

[tuinkabouter]

Op 6-1-2011 10:49, F*cking French schreef:

Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

There is no analogy between electronics and water.
The only analogy i know is teh analogy between water and electricity.

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

You can calculate with water. Put 4 liter in a bucket.
add 3 liter to the same bucket. The result is 7 liter.
take out 2 liter and jou have 5 liter left in the bucket.

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

A basic building bloc in electronics has 2 inputs and 1 output.
The function of such a bloc is described by the truthtable.
There are three basic functions.
The and, the or, and the xor (exclusive or). There is also the invertor.

The truth table for the and is
0 0 | 0
0 1 | 1
1 0 | 1
1 1 | 0

I don't know how to build this with water. As far as i know they have
sulutions in pneumatics.

--
pim.

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:12:39 +0100, tuinkabouter
<dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote:

Op 6-1-2011 10:49, F*cking French schreef:
Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

There is no analogy between electronics and water.
The only analogy i know is teh analogy between water and electricity.

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

You can calculate with water. Put 4 liter in a bucket.
add 3 liter to the same bucket. The result is 7 liter.
take out 2 liter and jou have 5 liter left in the bucket.

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

A basic building bloc in electronics has 2 inputs and 1 output.
The function of such a bloc is described by the truthtable.
There are three basic functions.
The and, the or, and the xor (exclusive or). There is also the invertor.

The truth table for the and is
0 0 | 0
0 1 | 1
1 0 | 1
1 1 | 0

---
That's the truth table for Exclusive OR.

The truth table for AND is:

A B Y
0 0 0
0 1 0
1 0 0
1 1 1


---
JF

 

[F. Bertolazzi]

tuinkabouter:

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

That's digital electronics.

I don't know how to build this with water. As far as i know they have
sulutions in pneumatics.

And therefore with water & pipes.

 

[Rich Grise]

F*cking French wrote:

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

I'd say very probably yes - they do it with transmission fluid in an

automatic tranny; you'd just have to figure out how to do the switching
elements, which could be spool valves and schtuff, but beyond that you're
kinda on your own.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

tuinkabouter wrote:

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

Evidently you've never heard of analog, or linear, circuitry.

But thanks for playing!
Rich

 

[Bret Cahill]

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage  without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A  rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

And don't forget, a hydraulic jack is a transformer.


Bret Cahill

 

[George Herold]

On Jan 6, 10:39 am, "F. Bertolazzi" <TOGLIe...@MAIUSCOLEtdd.it> wrote:

tuinkabouter:

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage  without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A  rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
(The baloon mouth (gate) feed from up stream through some flow

impedance)

A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

(I don't quite get this one... but then I always found FET's easier to
understand (at least in principle))

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

That's digital electronics.

I don't know how to build this with water. As far as i know they have
sulutions in pneumatics.

And therefore with water & pipes.

That was nice, Thanks.

George H.

 

[George Herold]

On Jan 6, 10:58 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage  without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A  rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

And don't forget, a hydraulic jack is a transformer.

Bret Cahill

Oh, I call them hydraulic rams. It's not quite a transformer, that's
a lot more efficient than a ram.
(At least that's my understanding of a ram.)

George H.

 

[tuinkabouter]

Op 6-1-2011 23:33, Rich Grise schreef:

tuinkabouter wrote:

With electronics you have only buckets (bits) that are full or emty.

Evidently you've never heard of analog, or linear, circuitry.

I am a bit biased the last 25 years, but i know how to calculate a
transistor amplifier... But not anymore i think. And i forgot the tubes.

--
pim.

 

[Rich Grise]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage  without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A  rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

And don't forget, a hydraulic jack is a transformer.

And automatic transmissions have hydraulic computers:

http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Automatic-Transmission-hydraulic-circuit-diagram.png

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

George Herold wrote:

On Jan 6, 10:58 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

You can have pressure without flow.
You can have voltage  without current.

Small pipes have higher risistance.

A rubber diaphragm that obstructs the pipe is a capacitor.
A lead rod inside the pipe is a coil.
A check valve is a diode.
A  rubber baloon inside the pipe is a FET
A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted
normal to it is a BJT.

And don't forget, a hydraulic jack is a transformer.

Oh, I call them hydraulic rams. It's not quite a transformer, that's
a lot more efficient than a ram.
(At least that's my understanding of a ram.)

I'd think "transducer" would be more accurate, unless you've got one

ram driving another one of a different size.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[F. Bertolazzi]

George Herold:

A nozzle directed to the output pipe with a control nozzle mounted normal
to it is a BJT.

(I don't quite get this one... but then I always found FET's easier to
understand (at least in principle))

Me too. ;-)

The example is about a nozzle that "shoots" water in the output pipe.
If the water jet is disturbed by another, smaller, jet coming from the
"base nozzle" it will partially or totally miss the output pipe.

Actually the operation should be reversed, in the sense that the "collector
pipe" should not be aligned with the "emitter nozzle", so that the main jet
can enter it only if deflected by the "base jet".

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:12:39 +0100, tuinkabouter
<dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote:

Op 6-1-2011 10:49, F*cking French schreef:
Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

There is no analogy between electronics and water.
The only analogy i know is teh analogy between water and electricity.

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

It's a weak analogy, because the equations don't match. You can't
apply Ohms-law type reasoning to fluid flow because pressure drop is
nonlinear on fluid flow.

John

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:29:09 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:12:39 +0100, tuinkabouter
dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote:

Op 6-1-2011 10:49, F*cking French schreef:
Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

There is no analogy between electronics and water.
The only analogy i know is teh analogy between water and electricity.

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

It's a weak analogy, because the equations don't match. You can't
apply Ohms-law type reasoning to fluid flow because pressure drop is
nonlinear on fluid flow.

John

---
So what?

It's still an excellent way of introducing someone unfamiliar with the
concepts of voltage, current, and resistance to their fluid analogs of
pressure, flow, and pipe diameter.

And, as far as Ohm's law goes, if pressure (voltage) increases while
resistance (pipe diameter) remains constant, then current (flow) will
increase, so the _reasoning_ is the same in either case regardless of
the equations.

---
JF

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 05:56:29 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:29:09 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:12:39 +0100, tuinkabouter
dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote:

Op 6-1-2011 10:49, F*cking French schreef:
Hello,

I'm a designer, and I don't know much about electronics and water
analogy...
But I was wondering if a very basic calculator could be made with
water.

Lets say a circuit able to + and - numbers and display them.

I have no idea how complex such a circuit would be.

There is no analogy between electronics and water.
The only analogy i know is teh analogy between water and electricity.

Pressure is voltage.
Flow is current.

It's a weak analogy, because the equations don't match. You can't
apply Ohms-law type reasoning to fluid flow because pressure drop is
nonlinear on fluid flow.

John

---
So what?

It's still an excellent way of introducing someone unfamiliar with the
concepts of voltage, current, and resistance to their fluid analogs of
pressure, flow, and pipe diameter.

Except that most people don't understand the fluid situation to start,
and lots of people don't do these sorts of physical analogies very
well. I find it easier to just explain the electricity.

And, as far as Ohm's law goes, if pressure (voltage) increases while
resistance (pipe diameter) remains constant, then current (flow) will
increase, so the _reasoning_ is the same in either case regardless of
the equations.

As I said, it's a weak analogy. You have to misunderstand fluid flow
for it to even sort of work. I've never liked using plumbing to
explain electronics.

John

 

[F. Bertolazzi]

John Larkin:

Except that most people don't understand the fluid situation to start,

Right. That's why this analogy is precious.

Everybody that has played with a garden hose as a kid has wondered why, if
you obstruct its end with the thumb, the water jet goes farther.

The solution to this apparent absurdity not only explains them Ohms law,
but also entices their curiosity by satisfying a long-standing question.

and lots of people don't do these sorts of physical analogies very
well. I find it easier to just explain the electricity.

Probably that's the reason why most of the ITIS (vocational high school)
graduates I interviewed don't know Ohm's law. We should make the teaching
of the water analogy compulsory in schools.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 15:05:06 +0100, "F. Bertolazzi"
<TOGLIeset@MAIUSCOLEtdd.it> wrote:

John Larkin:

Except that most people don't understand the fluid situation to start,

Right. That's why this analogy is precious.

Everybody that has played with a garden hose as a kid has wondered why, if
you obstruct its end with the thumb, the water jet goes farther.

The solution to this apparent absurdity not only explains them Ohms law,
but also entices their curiosity by satisfying a long-standing question.

OK, what's the electrical equivalent of the finger-on-the-hose thing?
Schematic, please.

and lots of people don't do these sorts of physical analogies very
well. I find it easier to just explain the electricity.

Probably that's the reason why most of the ITIS (vocational high school)
graduates I interviewed don't know Ohm's law. We should make the teaching
of the water analogy compulsory in schools.

There is no equivalent of Ohm's Law in fluid flow. There's not much
point in teaching electronics qualitatively.

John

 

[F. Bertolazzi]

John Larkin:

OK, what's the electrical equivalent of the finger-on-the-hose thing?
Schematic, please.

Sorry, but, for some reason, my newsreader uses, as fixed font, a
proportional one. Apart from that, I'm used to publish schematics on NGs
with FidoCad and, "spoiled" by it, I can't stand anymore using "ASCII art".

But I can describe it very easily: a voltage source connected to a resistor
and a variable resistor.

The more the finger obstructs the hose, the higher the value of the
variable resistor, the less circulating current and the higher voltage in
the node between the two resistors and the pressure in the hose.

Very useful also to explain the difference between a real generator and a
voltage source. The generator's internal resistance is another of those
unbelievably "mysterious" topics.

There is no equivalent of Ohm's Law in fluid flow. There's not much
point in teaching electronics qualitatively.

During one of those interviews I used some time to explain to the
"candidate" (a friend's son) the hose thing. His smile, after years doing
exercises he could not figure out what they meant, was priceless.