Was Runaway Prius Really A Runaway? Or Just A Prank?

[Bret Cahill]

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:57:29 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

---
Which has _what_ to do with basic electronics?

JF

 

[John Tserkezis]

On 10/03/2010 10:24 PM, John Fields wrote:

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."
The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

Which has _what_ to do with basic electronics?

Said big auto company was only good at *basic* electronics, explaining
the incompetence at a braking system one would presume to require
advanced electronics?

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:24:59 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:57:29 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote:

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

---
Which has _what_ to do with basic electronics?

JF

He's a law clerk or something, doing his best.

John

 

[Bob Eld]

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill


To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

John

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

<news@jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:bbpfp5laa31oslt80qrnoqbuuarmp2ama9@4ax.com...

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com
wrote:


Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Paul

 

[Jon]

"Paul E. Schoen" <paul@pstech-inc.com> wrote in message
news:_CUln.19520$bx3.10719@newsfe13.iad...
<snip>

Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of unintended
acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear. I've always
had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an automatic.
snip

Funny you should say that Paul, that is exactly me! I have always driven
a manual transmission and likely always will.

My hand tries to grab air and my foot instinctively tries for the missing
clutch
when I drive someone else's automatic transmission equipped vehicle.

My 2007 Xterra has an electronic throttle but, as you said, I'd simply take
it out of gear if it ever accelerated unintentionally.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:59:14 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"
<paul@pstech-inc.com> wrote:

news@jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:bbpfp5laa31oslt80qrnoqbuuarmp2ama9@4ax.com...
On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:18 -0800, "Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com
wrote:


Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall. I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck. The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving. However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla. She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix". 10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event. Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle). I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Paul

Buying a vehicle with an automatic transmission was a concession to
age and arthritis (the hardware holding my back together came later).
Had I been able to determine which (if any) new vehicles had
mechanical linkage from the gas pedal to the throttle, that feature
would likely have been a major factor in choosing the new vehicle.

My previous vehicle was a 1989 Nissan pickup (4 cyl, 5 speed manual),
which I sold when it was 18 years old and my wife refused to ride in
it***. In that vehicle, the electronics were limited to the ignition
and radio - plus the cruise control unit I added. The cruise control
dropped out immediately when you pressed the brake pedal - and a
*real* on/off switch was on the control pad.

*** conversation follows:
"You need a new truck."
"Yes, dear".

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.

1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall.  I noticed
the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck.  The Toyota-provided
overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
moving.  However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?

2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla.  She had not
ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
"sudden acceleration fix".  10 days later, her brother was driving the
car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
acceleration event.  Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.

At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
returns the throttle to idle).  I don't believe that Toyota knows
which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)

It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.

Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
automatic.

It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
power assist, but always overridable manually.

My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
steering problems.

Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!

And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.

I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Automation is good as long as there is an override and everyone knows
how to use it.

NPR SDSU just had some commentator claim that every vehicle including
every hybrid electric has a neutral. If you don't know where the
neutral is you shouldn't be on the road in the first place and ought
to get a ticket for not knowing how to drive your vehicle.

He was probably speeding and pulled off this entire charade to get out
of a ticket.

The story about burning up the brakes is incredible. Unless he was
riding the brakes for 280 miles that story is complete bs.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be.  

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf


Bret Cahill

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:26eb5d4f-99b2-4e8d-b631-2d973cbb9b58@o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997
models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration
readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs,
although the ECM can increase the idle speed.

With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms
that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably
driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the
drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option,
and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could
cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never
stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an
electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes.

Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had a manual tranny
option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is
peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got
28 city/35 highway MPG. My simple bare bones $4000 1999 Saturn SL-1 does at
least that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_Hybrid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accord_Hybrid

Paul

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:03:22 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be.  

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf


Bret Cahill

Here's one good way to stop a runaway vehicle:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/oops.zip

Just pull over to the curb.

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

  It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
  60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
  put out a fourth that much power.

 http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997
models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration
readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs,
although the ECM can increase the idle speed.

With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms
that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably
driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the
drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option,
and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could
cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never
stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an
electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes..

Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had  a manual tranny
option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is
peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got
28 city/35 highway MPG. My simple bare bones $4000 1999 Saturn SL-1 does at
least that.

In 6 more weeks my rest pulse rate will be down to 45/minute from
cycle commuting 20 miles each way.

Warren Buffet has been investing billions in the energy basics lately,
GE, BNSF, etc. He needs to consider bicycles. Tuesday they found me
waiting for the bike shop to open and got charged FIVE DOLLARS for a
shifter cable.

I should have kept the mouth shut about the knees and the wind.


Bret Cahill

 

[Michael Robinson]

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn8jnh$rsp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill


To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system
problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders.
They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats
and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on
their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them
just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it
except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

You've pretty much put my thoughts on this into words.

I've noticed some op-eds and such pointing up the known problem of driver
error (i.e., panic and press harder on accelerator thinking it's the brake
pedal).

But here we have a guy standing on the brake with both feet and pulling the
e-brake too. Something's obviously seriously wrong with the car.

Toyota has a serious mental block on this. Floor mats! How stupid can you
get. Meanwhile, people die.

About 15 years ago I witnessed a car accelerate out of control in New York
City, coming up Lafayette Street, cross Astor Place, and slam into a
construction scaffold. The car was like a missile, the engine was
absolutely screaming. One pedestrian that didn't get hit by the car was
seriously injured just from standing NEAR the point of impact. I don't know
if the people in the car even survived. This stuff is no joke.

If we don't hold the Toyota people's feet to the fire, shame on us.

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Michael Robinson" <nospam@billburg.com> wrote in message
news:ifvmn.22115$mn6.12572@newsfe07.iad...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn8jnh$rsp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.


Bret Cahill


To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system
problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders.
They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats
and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on
their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them
just
as an airplane would be. Toyota's techs should be kept away from it
except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.


You've pretty much put my thoughts on this into words.

I've noticed some op-eds and such pointing up the known problem of driver
error (i.e., panic and press harder on accelerator thinking it's the brake
pedal).

But here we have a guy standing on the brake with both feet and pulling
the e-brake too. Something's obviously seriously wrong with the car.

Toyota has a serious mental block on this. Floor mats! How stupid can
you get. Meanwhile, people die.

About 15 years ago I witnessed a car accelerate out of control in New York
City, coming up Lafayette Street, cross Astor Place, and slam into a
construction scaffold. The car was like a missile, the engine was
absolutely screaming. One pedestrian that didn't get hit by the car was
seriously injured just from standing NEAR the point of impact. I don't
know if the people in the car even survived. This stuff is no joke.

If we don't hold the Toyota people's feet to the fire, shame on us.

There was a news story last night about a woman who lost control when she
put her RAV4 in reverse after being involved in a minor fender-bender with a
neighbor's vehicle. The SUV apparently went full throttle and slammed into
her house. She is 70 years old, and it is possible that she might have
panicked, but there were others who witnessed the event. Her vehicle was not
part of the recall, but she had it checked by a Toyota technician. Here is
the story:
http://www.wbaltv.com/news/22813852/detail.html

I am totally in favor of having a separate black box that keeps a record of,
say, the last 60 seconds of vehicle operation before a serious crash is
detected. I don't mind if the police look at the data for the speedometer
and my use of the accelerator, brake, steering, etc., because I don't drive
like a maniac. Of course, it might be expected that one may have exceeded
the speed limit or accelerated quickly trying to avoid an accident, but any
information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be
welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide.

It is frustrating to hear of long-term criminals who have repeatedly gotten
off on serious offenses because of technicalities. Even if proper procedures
may not have been followed, as long as there was no overt intimidation or
physical harm to the defendent or his property, and the evidence found was
solid, then it should be admitted. If there was a breach of protocol, that
should be a separate crime that might cause the investigators to be charged
and punished. But the punishment for that might just be a fine or temporary
suspension and reeducation about the laws that might have been broken. I'm
sure most law enforcement officers would accept such risk if it would result
in a perp being convicted and sentenced for a crime that was without a doubt
committed.

Paul

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

<keithw86@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ce19caba-a2ab-47fb-9c1a-613ced6dde07@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 12, 2:17 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <p...@pstech-inc.com> wrote:

There was a news story last night about a woman who lost control when she
put her RAV4 in reverse after being involved in a minor fender-bender with
a
neighbor's vehicle. The SUV apparently went full throttle and slammed into
her house. She is 70 years old, and it is possible that she might have
panicked, but there were others who witnessed the event. Her vehicle was
not
part of the recall, but she had it checked by a Toyota technician. Here is
the story:http://www.wbaltv.com/news/22813852/detail.html

I am totally in favor of having a separate black box that keeps a record
of,
say, the last 60 seconds of vehicle operation before a serious crash is
detected. I don't mind if the police look at the data for the speedometer
and my use of the accelerator, brake, steering, etc., because I don't
drive
like a maniac. Of course, it might be expected that one may have exceeded
the speed limit or accelerated quickly trying to avoid an accident, but
any
information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be
welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide.

"So, you have no problem with police searching your home, reading your
email, or recording your telephone calls, all without a warrant?"

Doing so without a warrant would still be a crime. But if it turned up
undeniable evidence of a crime, and was unusable only because of a minor
technicality, then I don't have a problem with that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It is frustrating to hear of long-term criminals who have repeatedly
gotten
off on serious offenses because of technicalities. Even if proper
procedures
may not have been followed, as long as there was no overt intimidation or
physical harm to the defendent or his property, and the evidence found was
solid, then it should be admitted. If there was a breach of protocol, that
should be a separate crime that might cause the investigators to be
charged
and punished. But the punishment for that might just be a fine or
temporary
suspension and reeducation about the laws that might have been broken. I'm
sure most law enforcement officers would accept such risk if it would
result
in a perp being convicted and sentenced for a crime that was without a
doubt
committed.

"Why not just throw out the entire BoR? It just gets in the way of
those nice people from the government, making it harder for them to
help you."

It is based on an interpretation of *unreasonable* search and seizure.
Mistakes are often made, and as long as I was not physically injured by
unreasonable force, or my property destroyed, then I would rather be
inconvenienced and compensated if there were no evidence of guilt. Our
justice system rightly errs on the side of caution, but too often perfectly
good evidence is considered "tainted" and inadmissible because of some
inconsequential paperwork error or other similar problem.

But I would at the same time exclude any police or governmental activity
involving the so-called "War On Drugs", particularly when it concerns
individual possession or use, and no violence or attempts to distribute to
minors. Most of our most violent crime is directly related to these failed
policies, which makes the entire drug network so wealthy and powerful. Any
attempt by authorities to limit personal use and possession of something
deemed to be harmful to the individual is a gross violation of personal
rights, and when someone has an addiction or a strong desire for something,
nothing short of a totalitarian police state can control it. If a substance
or activity does not harm others, governmental authorities should have no
right to interfere. At worst it is a medical issue, and anyone who commits a
real crime because of such a condition should be punished and required to
get treatment.

Paul

 

[keithw86@gmail.com]

On Mar 12, 2:17 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <p...@pstech-inc.com> wrote:

"Michael Robinson" <nos...@billburg.com> wrote in message

news:ifvmn.22115$mn6.12572@newsfe07.iad...





"Bob Eld" <nsmontas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn8jnh$rsp$1@news.eternal-september.org...

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E_Cah...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3fd7078-e8b8-4f1f-b7ff-d7da0a141a31@k6g2000prg.googlegroups.com....
A few years ago I was looking at a minivan with defective ABS and I
turned to an astute ex used car dealer and said incredulously,
"there's no way a big auto company would design a car without any back
up brake system . . ."

The astute ex used car dealer didn't say a word.

Bret Cahill

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system
problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders.
They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats
and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on
their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them
just
as an airplane would be.  Toyota's techs should be kept away from it
except
under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

You've pretty much put my thoughts on this into words.

I've noticed some op-eds and such pointing up the known problem of driver
error (i.e., panic and press harder on accelerator thinking it's the brake
pedal).

But here we have a guy standing on the brake with both feet and pulling
the e-brake too.  Something's obviously seriously wrong with the car.

Toyota has a serious mental  block on this.  Floor mats!  How stupid can
you get.  Meanwhile, people die.

About 15 years ago I witnessed a car accelerate out of control in New York
City, coming up Lafayette Street, cross Astor Place, and slam into a
construction scaffold.  The car was like a missile, the engine was
absolutely screaming.  One pedestrian that didn't get hit by the car was
seriously injured just from standing NEAR the point of impact.  I don't
know if the people in the car even survived.  This stuff is no joke.

If we don't hold the Toyota people's  feet to the fire, shame on us.

There was a news story last night about a woman who lost control when she
put her RAV4 in reverse after being involved in a minor fender-bender with a
neighbor's vehicle. The SUV apparently went full throttle and slammed into
her house. She is 70 years old, and it is possible that she might have
panicked, but there were others who witnessed the event. Her vehicle was not
part of the recall, but she had it checked by a Toyota technician. Here is
the story:http://www.wbaltv.com/news/22813852/detail.html

I am totally in favor of having a separate black box that keeps a record of,
say, the last 60 seconds of vehicle operation before a serious crash is
detected. I don't mind if the police look at the data for the speedometer
and my use of the accelerator, brake, steering, etc., because I don't drive
like a maniac. Of course, it might be expected that one may have exceeded
the speed limit or accelerated quickly trying to avoid an accident, but any
information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be
welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide.

So, you have no problem with police searching your home, reading your
email, or recording your telephone calls, all without a warrant?

It is frustrating to hear of long-term criminals who have repeatedly gotten
off on serious offenses because of technicalities. Even if proper procedures
may not have been followed, as long as there was no overt intimidation or
physical harm to the defendent or his property, and the evidence found was
solid, then it should be admitted. If there was a breach of protocol, that
should be a separate crime that might cause the investigators to be charged
and punished. But the punishment for that might just be a fine or temporary
suspension and reeducation about the laws that might have been broken. I'm
sure most law enforcement officers would accept such risk if it would result
in a perp being convicted and sentenced for a crime that was without a doubt
committed.

Why not just throw out the entire BoR? It just gets in the way of
those nice people from the government, making it harder for them to
help you.

 

[krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:17:53 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen" <paul@pstech-inc.com>
wrote:

keithw86@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ce19caba-a2ab-47fb-9c1a-613ced6dde07@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 12, 2:17 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" <p...@pstech-inc.com> wrote:

There was a news story last night about a woman who lost control when she
put her RAV4 in reverse after being involved in a minor fender-bender with
a
neighbor's vehicle. The SUV apparently went full throttle and slammed into
her house. She is 70 years old, and it is possible that she might have
panicked, but there were others who witnessed the event. Her vehicle was
not
part of the recall, but she had it checked by a Toyota technician. Here is
the story:http://www.wbaltv.com/news/22813852/detail.html

I am totally in favor of having a separate black box that keeps a record
of,
say, the last 60 seconds of vehicle operation before a serious crash is
detected. I don't mind if the police look at the data for the speedometer
and my use of the accelerator, brake, steering, etc., because I don't
drive
like a maniac. Of course, it might be expected that one may have exceeded
the speed limit or accelerated quickly trying to avoid an accident, but
any
information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should be
welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide.

"So, you have no problem with police searching your home, reading your
email, or recording your telephone calls, all without a warrant?"

Doing so without a warrant would still be a crime. But if it turned up
undeniable evidence of a crime, and was unusable only because of a minor
technicality, then I don't have a problem with that.

Ah, so you *do* think it's just peachy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


It is frustrating to hear of long-term criminals who have repeatedly
gotten
off on serious offenses because of technicalities. Even if proper
procedures
may not have been followed, as long as there was no overt intimidation or
physical harm to the defendent or his property, and the evidence found was
solid, then it should be admitted. If there was a breach of protocol, that
should be a separate crime that might cause the investigators to be
charged
and punished. But the punishment for that might just be a fine or
temporary
suspension and reeducation about the laws that might have been broken. I'm
sure most law enforcement officers would accept such risk if it would
result
in a perp being convicted and sentenced for a crime that was without a
doubt
committed.

"Why not just throw out the entire BoR? It just gets in the way of
those nice people from the government, making it harder for them to
help you."

It is based on an interpretation of *unreasonable* search and seizure.
Mistakes are often made, and as long as I was not physically injured by
unreasonable force, or my property destroyed, then I would rather be
inconvenienced and compensated if there were no evidence of guilt. Our
justice system rightly errs on the side of caution, but too often perfectly
good evidence is considered "tainted" and inadmissible because of some
inconsequential paperwork error or other similar problem.

We are *not* discussing "inconsequential paperwork errors or other similar
problems". Quote from above:

"any information that helps provide the truth in any investigation should
be welcome by anyone who has nothing to hide."

....and you are defending this. <boggle>

But I would at the same time exclude any police or governmental activity
involving the so-called "War On Drugs", particularly when it concerns
individual possession or use, and no violence or attempts to distribute to
minors. Most of our most violent crime is directly related to these failed
policies, which makes the entire drug network so wealthy and powerful. Any
attempt by authorities to limit personal use and possession of something
deemed to be harmful to the individual is a gross violation of personal
rights, and when someone has an addiction or a strong desire for something,
nothing short of a totalitarian police state can control it. If a substance
or activity does not harm others, governmental authorities should have no
right to interfere. At worst it is a medical issue, and anyone who commits a
real crime because of such a condition should be punished and required to
get treatment.

More meandering mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2010-03-11, Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!

But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
they are more open.

The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
as an airplane would be.  

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

with the throttle wide open the manifold vacuum is not there
so there's no power assist on the brakes.

if the driver is somewhat feeble it's conceivable that they will not be
able to stop the car using the brakes.


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