VS5010 revisited

J

JURB6006

Guest
It's me again;

This is not for the faint of heart.

Now it's blowing the LA7838 in about a minute. Same deal, there is some DC on
the output, it has leakage to ground, but it does not discharge the boosted
Vcc. Now I have disconnected the shutdown, and of course the filament supply.
There was no raster even with the vertical running, but it has the CM kit so
whatever isn't right is probably triggering the CM ckt..

Now this is your typical current feedback output compared to a ramp. The ramp
appears about right and the top of the yoke output appears alright on the
scope. Any variance in the impedance curve of the yoke load will cause a change
in the output voltage as the chip tries to match the current to the ramp. Right
?

The output voltage waveform matches the picture on the print except for one
thing, there is a bowtie waveform superimposed on it. Many times this is
normal, however I simply can't know everything so I thought, OK the fault is
not properly bypassing the HF component of the feedback, as such it's screwing
with the slewing rate of the outputs. I added a 1000pf cap to that pin and the
bowtie component is still there. In either case it wasn't that big, I'd say the
HF component peaked at about 15V P-P. Still blew it, no change.

This time I saw it fail, I made it a point to sit there and watch the scope. It
simply became a flatline at about 10Vdc (I think). I didnt see a spike or
anything. Of course at that slow sweep time it might not have been displayable.


I have also changed the NS PIN transformer to no avail.

What are the chances of it being a rogue yoke ? To test that theory I think
I'll run the set with the red and blue yokes, or all of them disconnected from
the vertical. I think I can manage to turn the plugs around to make it so. Of
course the filament supply will remain disconnected and the LA7838 will put out
square waves. If it runs for hours like this, now does that really <u>prove</u>
that it needs one of the yokes ? Before when I looked into the tubes the sweep
seemed pretty normal, without the mirror in place I can't say it was absolutely
correct but there were no glaring abnormalities. I couldn't quite see the top
of the rasters, but the bottom was not bowed or compressed. Even if one of the
vertical windings was a dead short it woudn't do this, but if it was an
intermittent short to the H winding it would.

As of during the day today, I had replies and both have been dealt with, I
changed the "boost" diode and the 11V is present on pin #1 even when there is
no sweep. Thanx for your help, but it didn't work this time. Anyone else
replied since this afternoon, I'll read it in a few minutes.

One thing's for sure, if it blows with the yokes disconnected, the problem is
on board for sure, it should be able to put out those square waves for quite
some time, right ? Or should I find a yoke somewhere and hook it up ? Maybe
both ways.

This thing has good enough tubes and it has been on one of my benches for way
too long so any ideas are appreciated, what would you do ? Thanx in advance.

JURB
 
My vote would be to find a yoke or yokes to substitute. That's of course
the easiest way to narrow it down.

Could you run with the horizontal yoke windings disconnected to eliminate
the possibilty of a short causing the part to fail?

Does the part get hot before it blows? If all inputs and outputs
look correct but it blows without overheating, then one must suspect
some outside cause like a shorting yoke.

This is probably all obvious.....

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Subject: VS5010 revisited
From: jurb6006@aol.com (JURB6006)
Date: 9/10/03 8:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Now it's blowing the LA7838 in about a minute.
I don't know if you covered this Jeff, but where are you getting those 7838s
from? Unless they come directly from MGA, Zenith, Panasonic, etc., I'd bet
real money the problem is garbage subs. If you are getting them OEM direct,
then I'm stumped as well.


John Del
Wolcott, CT

"Nothing is so opportune for tyrants as a people tired of its liberty."
Alan Keyes

(remove S for email reply)
 
Did you replace D4000 ( 11V Zener) and C920 (10uf 100V) in the power supply?


--
==========================
Jeff Stielau
Shoreline Electronics Repair
344 East Main Street
Clinton,CT 06413
860-399-1861
860-664-3535 (fax)
jstielau@snet.net
==========================
"If you push something hard enough it will fall over."
Fudd's First Law of Opposition - Sir Sidney Fudd


"JURB6006" &lt;jurb6006@aol.com&gt; wrote in message
news:20030910202749.18140.00001012@mb-m05.aol.com...
It's me again;

This is not for the faint of heart.

Now it's blowing the LA7838 in about a minute. Same deal, there is some DC
on
the output, it has leakage to ground, but it does not discharge the
boosted
Vcc. Now I have disconnected the shutdown, and of course the filament
supply.
There was no raster even with the vertical running, but it has the CM kit
so
whatever isn't right is probably triggering the CM ckt..

Now this is your typical current feedback output compared to a ramp. The
ramp
appears about right and the top of the yoke output appears alright on the
scope. Any variance in the impedance curve of the yoke load will cause a
change
in the output voltage as the chip tries to match the current to the ramp.
Right
?

The output voltage waveform matches the picture on the print except for
one
thing, there is a bowtie waveform superimposed on it. Many times this is
normal, however I simply can't know everything so I thought, OK the fault
is
not properly bypassing the HF component of the feedback, as such it's
screwing
with the slewing rate of the outputs. I added a 1000pf cap to that pin and
the
bowtie component is still there. In either case it wasn't that big, I'd
say the
HF component peaked at about 15V P-P. Still blew it, no change.

This time I saw it fail, I made it a point to sit there and watch the
scope. It
simply became a flatline at about 10Vdc (I think). I didnt see a spike or
anything. Of course at that slow sweep time it might not have been
displayable.


I have also changed the NS PIN transformer to no avail.

What are the chances of it being a rogue yoke ? To test that theory I
think
I'll run the set with the red and blue yokes, or all of them disconnected
from
the vertical. I think I can manage to turn the plugs around to make it so.
Of
course the filament supply will remain disconnected and the LA7838 will
put out
square waves. If it runs for hours like this, now does that really
u&gt;prove&lt;/u
that it needs one of the yokes ? Before when I looked into the tubes the
sweep
seemed pretty normal, without the mirror in place I can't say it was
absolutely
correct but there were no glaring abnormalities. I couldn't quite see the
top
of the rasters, but the bottom was not bowed or compressed. Even if one of
the
vertical windings was a dead short it woudn't do this, but if it was an
intermittent short to the H winding it would.

As of during the day today, I had replies and both have been dealt with, I
changed the "boost" diode and the 11V is present on pin #1 even when there
is
no sweep. Thanx for your help, but it didn't work this time. Anyone else
replied since this afternoon, I'll read it in a few minutes.

One thing's for sure, if it blows with the yokes disconnected, the problem
is
on board for sure, it should be able to put out those square waves for
quite
some time, right ? Or should I find a yoke somewhere and hook it up ?
Maybe
both ways.

This thing has good enough tubes and it has been on one of my benches for
way
too long so any ideas are appreciated, what would you do ? Thanx in
advance.

JURB
 
Hello;

Thanx for your time and attention, of course I will reciprocate whenever
possible. We are, however, still fighting this beast.

#1
"Did you carefully look for thin spikes and any is fizzy (noisy)
waveform where it should be sharp clean thin waveforms? This is what
I'm dealing with mine (RCA PTK195 using TDA8172)

Not to scale, just a rough digram: "*" is the HF fuzz exactly (less
than 1/4 inch wide)"
-------------
It uses a saturable reactor NS PIN ckt., as such some hash will crop up on the
waveform (WF) normally. I checked the WF to the print for the VS5001 and it
matched, as do all of the onboard Vsweep components I've seen. Even the Vcc
matches, so I would bet the yokes are electrically compatible at least to the
vertical ckt..

#2
Could you run with the horizontal yoke windings disconnected to eliminate
the possibilty of a short causing the part to fail?

Does the part get hot before it blows? If all inputs and outputs
look correct but it blows without overheating, then one must suspect
some outside cause like a shorting yoke.
----------------------------
Yes, but even a dead short of one yoke shouldn''t cause this. Yes, the original
2 ICs got hot, they took around 5 minutes to fail. That changed to one minute,
and the only thing I'm not sure of is if changing the NS PIN transformer
resulted in this. It did not cure the problem, so I'll change it back when I
get back on it, probably tomorrow.

#3
I don't know if you covered this Jeff, but where are you getting those 7838s
from? Unless they come directly from MGA, Zenith, Panasonic, etc., I'd bet
real money the problem is garbage subs. If you are getting them OEM direct,
then I'm stumped as well.
---------------
The first two were from RCA I believe. They came in an RCA paper envelope.
These were the ones that lasted longer. The third one was from a chassis in the
back. The tab twisting was sure to screw the original up, and it was an
ECG70XX, a true ECG, not a knockoff. The last couple came from B&amp;D with whom we
have really had good luck with. Of course there could be a bad batch of them
around. You might remember when I posted about the bad STK4274s, lot #7027.
I'll not soon forget that.

#4

Did you replace D4000 ( 11V Zener) and C920 (10uf 100V) in the power supply?
------------------
No, but I did state that the 11V supply was up after the failure. It was 11V,
just like it should be so that clears the zener, the cap and the resistor. No
sweep, yet the 11V was ok. You're not the only person that mentioned that, but
if the voltage is there. . . . . .

----------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for your time and interest. <u>When</u> we beat this $%&amp;*^#@# I'l
make sure you're the first to know, well realistically second.

JURB
 

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