Vitrovac tape-wound core T60009-E4006-W650...

[JM]

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-08-24 21:35, JM wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores
after Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another
in this group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have
lived too long and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the
Vitrovac part.

Let me know if you find something...

Jeroen Belleman

 

[JM]

On 24/08/2020 22:15, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 2020-08-24 21:35, JM wrote:
I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores
after Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another
in this group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have
lived too long and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the
Vitrovac part.

Let me know if you find something...

Jeroen Belleman

Ha, your cupboard is bare as well..

These (https://www.nanoamor.com/magnetic_beads) might be a substitute. I
haven\'t seen the full datasheet (if it exists) yet.

 

[JM]

On 25/08/2020 00:51, JM wrote:

On 24/08/2020 22:15, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2020-08-24 21:35, JM wrote:
I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores
after Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another
in this group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have
lived too long and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the
Vitrovac part.

Let me know if you find something...

Jeroen Belleman

Ha, your cupboard is bare as well..

These (https://www.nanoamor.com/magnetic_beads) might be a substitute. I
haven\'t seen the full datasheet (if it exists) yet.

Forget these nanoamor parts, they only have a few sizes in stock and
they are about $8 each. I think I have sourced a suitable replacement
(at about 50 pence each!) - I\'ll post an update when I have procured a
few and tested them.

 

[legg]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com>
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.

I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

legg wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.

I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL

Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.

I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL

Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman

I think you\'ll find there are ferrite parts that will work
in most practical applications.

The wide bandwidth you\'re talking about usually translates
as \'low frequency\', where part size reduction isn\'t just a
magnetic issue.

In fact, people working in that area tend to boast about
the size and weight of their equipment, as a quality factor.

RL

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

legg wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.
I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL
Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman

I think you\'ll find there are ferrite parts that will work
in most practical applications.

The wide bandwidth you\'re talking about usually translates
as \'low frequency\', where part size reduction isn\'t just a
magnetic issue.

In fact, people working in that area tend to boast about
the size and weight of their equipment, as a quality factor.

RL

Well, the high-frequency end of an RF transformer is usually
set by its size, the length of its windings. The low-frequency
end depends on the overall even mode inductance. It should be
evident that if you can get more inductance in a smaller size,
the bandwidth gets better.

I have several applications that greatly benefit from wideband
RF transformers.

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:28:00 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.
I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL
Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman

I think you\'ll find there are ferrite parts that will work
in most practical applications.

The wide bandwidth you\'re talking about usually translates
as \'low frequency\', where part size reduction isn\'t just a
magnetic issue.

In fact, people working in that area tend to boast about
the size and weight of their equipment, as a quality factor.

RL

Well, the high-frequency end of an RF transformer is usually
set by its size, the length of its windings. The low-frequency
end depends on the overall even mode inductance. It should be
evident that if you can get more inductance in a smaller size,
the bandwidth gets better.

I have several applications that greatly benefit from wideband
RF transformers.

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.

Jeroen Belleman

Above 10MHz, amorphous material may as well not be there.
At 6GHz, you\'re talking Alice in Wonderland, where transformers
are concerned - even connectors don\'t go there.

RL

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:28:00 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

<snip>

I have several applications that greatly benefit from wideband
RF transformers.

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.

Jeroen Belleman

.... anyways, I believe the issue is the difference between
6.7 and 9mm OD. Not such a drastic revision.

RL

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

legg wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:28:00 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.
I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL
Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman
I think you\'ll find there are ferrite parts that will work
in most practical applications.

The wide bandwidth you\'re talking about usually translates
as \'low frequency\', where part size reduction isn\'t just a
magnetic issue.

In fact, people working in that area tend to boast about
the size and weight of their equipment, as a quality factor.

RL
Well, the high-frequency end of an RF transformer is usually
set by its size, the length of its windings. The low-frequency
end depends on the overall even mode inductance. It should be
evident that if you can get more inductance in a smaller size,
the bandwidth gets better.

I have several applications that greatly benefit from wideband
RF transformers.

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.

Jeroen Belleman

Above 10MHz, amorphous material may as well not be there.

Yes, that is true. In some sense, the secret of wideband
transformers is to keep the RF away from the core at high
frequencies.

At 6GHz, you\'re talking Alice in Wonderland, where transformers
are concerned - even connectors don\'t go there.

RL

I measured this 6-decade bandwidth, roughly 6kHz to 6 GHz,
on a Guanella 25 to 100 Ohm impedance transformer. Those are
the easiest as RF transformers go, I admit. I patched
together the curves of several instruments and setups to cover
the range.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:48:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:28:00 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:43:48 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

legg wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.
I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL
Their unbeaten combination of high permeability and small size
made it possible to construct RF transformers with a full decade
of bandwidth more than is possible with ferrites. I\'ve used
thousands, despite the fact that I never produce large series
of anything. I kept finding more and more applications and now I
have only a few left over.

Jeroen Belleman
I think you\'ll find there are ferrite parts that will work
in most practical applications.

The wide bandwidth you\'re talking about usually translates
as \'low frequency\', where part size reduction isn\'t just a
magnetic issue.

In fact, people working in that area tend to boast about
the size and weight of their equipment, as a quality factor.

RL
Well, the high-frequency end of an RF transformer is usually
set by its size, the length of its windings. The low-frequency
end depends on the overall even mode inductance. It should be
evident that if you can get more inductance in a smaller size,
the bandwidth gets better.

I have several applications that greatly benefit from wideband
RF transformers.

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.

Jeroen Belleman

Above 10MHz, amorphous material may as well not be there.

Yes, that is true. In some sense, the secret of wideband
transformers is to keep the RF away from the core at high
frequencies.

At 6GHz, you\'re talking Alice in Wonderland, where transformers
are concerned - even connectors don\'t go there.

RL

I measured this 6-decade bandwidth, roughly 6kHz to 6 GHz,
on a Guanella 25 to 100 Ohm impedance transformer. Those are
the easiest as RF transformers go, I admit. I patched
together the curves of several instruments and setups to cover
the range.

Jeroen Belleman

What amplitude do you expect on the 100R winding at 6KHz?

How many dB down at that same frequency ?

RL

 

[Tim Williams]

\"legg\" <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote in message
news:38aakflq8eihnpi7tg7go5g7md76i6ctda@4ax.com...

I\'ve made many transformers. Bandwidth with ferrites is always
of the order of three decades. With Vitrovac\'s cores, I got
four decades. For Guanella topologies, I even got six decades,
maybe a bit more, my best VNA doesn\'t go beyond 6GHz.


Above 10MHz, amorphous material may as well not be there.
At 6GHz, you\'re talking Alice in Wonderland, where transformers
are concerned - even connectors don\'t go there.

He specified why the bandwidth is remarkable: a Guanella type uses
transmission lines of matched delays, in series and parallel combinations --
combinations which differ at either end, hence allowing impedance ratios,
and hence also needing a TL with some CMR, hence the core. (Only
autoformers can be made, no isolation. Obviously there is _delay_ between
all ports, so for example you can have matched delays from an unbalanced
primary to complementary (balanced) secondaries, but you can\'t have perfect
balance from one secondary port to the other, because there\'s delay between
them; perfect, instantaneous balance would violate the speed of light.)

The limiting bandwidth is not the winding length, but the winding width: the
cross-section of the TLs. And at the ends, how much space is required to
connect them up in, and how much mismatch (in terms of impedance and delay)
is incurred there.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:01:02 -0500, \"Tim Williams\"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

<snip>

The limiting bandwidth is not the winding length, but the winding width: the
cross-section of the TLs.

At the low end?

That\'s all the amorphous material is propping up . . .

RL

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2020-08-26 10:29, legg wrote:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:01:02 -0500, \"Tim Williams\"
tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

snip
The limiting bandwidth is not the winding length, but the winding width: the
cross-section of the TLs.

At the low end?

That\'s all the amorphous material is propping up . . .

RL

Well, yes! Nobody claimed otherwise.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[Tim Williams]

\"legg\" <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote in message
news:q87ckf9s3d89sah22ab2ahfcbbg0u932qt@4ax.com...

The limiting bandwidth is not the winding length, but the winding width:
the
cross-section of the TLs.

At the low end?

At...the high end.. the end that otherwise depends on length.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

 

[legg]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 00:44:45 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 20:35:50 +0100, JM <dontreplytothis173@gmail.com
wrote:

I bought a lifetime supply of the Vitrovac T60009-E4006-W650 cores after
Jeroen Belleman wrote about using them for something or another in this
group about 15 years ago. The problem is I seem to have lived too long
and/or the damn things have been too useful.

My stock has run out and I\'ve just found out they were discontinued a
few years back. Anyone have a good suggestion for a replacement?

There still seems to be Hitachi metglas parts but their ur is quite a
bit smaller, and their smallest core about 50% larger that the Vitrovac
part.

I think you\'ll have trouble getting anything toroidal and
amorphous below 9mm OD. There are various possible sources at
the larger OD.

VAC had other 6.7mm numbers (9-E5006-W562,9-E4006-W563) that
were 4mm H.

Coremaster in TW used to carry 3 parts around 6.7mm OD,
between 2.3 and 4mm H, but they dropped unprocessed core sales.

You might be able to dig parts out of old ISDN transformers
and filters, if you can find unpotted versions. Ferrites do
just as good a job there at <$, though.

RL

A new flier from MRC in Germany lists a 7.2mm OD part.

https://mrccomponents.com/en/products/material-core-materials

https://mrccomponents.com/index.php/en/products/material-core-materials/filter-cores

NO0704- in 3 different permeabilities.

RL