Very cheap Spartan3 board that can be configured by simple U

[Giuseppe Marullo]

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

 

[BobH]

On 8/28/2011 7:23 AM, Giuseppe Marullo wrote:

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

I have been using Opal Kelly 3050 boards. They can be configured via
USB, have IP that lets you do I/O through USB and have a reasonable
number of I/O pins. The 3050 use Spartan XC33S4000 parts. There are
3010, 3005 and 3001 that have smaller parts on them, but I have not used
them. They are not cheap, the 3050's are about $750 US. The smaller
boards go down to $175 US.

Their customer service is not stellar and their docs are kind of weak.
Last time I contacted their customer service, I was told to RTFM until I
told them that what I needed was not in the FM.

Good Luck,
BobH

 

[Jecel]

Giuseppe,

take a look at the XULA from Xess:

http://www.xess.com/prods/prod048.php

They have a cheaper version which is exactly like this but has a
smaller FPGA. I don't have any experience with this board myself, but
have a much older board from them (the XSA-100) which I like a lot.

-- Jecel

 

[Roberto Waltman]

Giuseppe Marullo wrote:

I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

Probably not what you have in mind:

< $200 ?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/794668827/aliencortex-av

$75 for 500K
http://papilio.cc/index.php?n=Papilio.Papilio

--
Roberto Waltman

[ Please reply to the group,
return address is invalid ]

 

[Giuseppe Marullo]

Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.

I need a very cheap board, so Papilio and/or Xula are best suited for
the task (2 x 175$ is too much, I could buy another Xylo-LM).

I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

The device is very simple, 2 digital input for the paddles and some user
interface to set the WPM speed, sensitivity and sidetone frequency.
The output will be one digitally optocoupled and a little amplified
loudspeaker. The device must be standalone in operation, without a
computer so probably a serial 16x2 LCD will provide feedback.

It needs to be tested by a skilled "brass pounder", that does not know
much of fpga and is 600km apart.

I don't want him to experience the wonderful parallel cable circus,
every time he discover something to be changed, that's the reason for
the USB programming.

I would like to have a twin system to remotely help him to update the
bitfile, thus the need of a cheap board, since I have to buy two.

I just have the basic stuff working, still need to add the LCD and the
encoders to let the user to set the WPM and so on and I doubt it will
fit in the 50k part.

Xula is really low price, small and give me most of what I want (except
maybe usb data transfer), and even DRAM.

Papilio, on the other side, has a serial port embedded into the USB but
lacks the DRAM (that I don't need) and is much bigger (250k is really okay).

If Xula would be able to talk with a program using just the USB could be
the best fit, otherwise Papilio.

Any other contender?


Giuseppe Marullo

 

[BobH]

On 8/28/2011 6:47 PM, Giuseppe Marullo wrote:

Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.

I need a very cheap board, so Papilio and/or Xula are best suited for
the task (2 x 175$ is too much, I could buy another Xylo-LM).

I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

The device is very simple, 2 digital input for the paddles and some user
interface to set the WPM speed, sensitivity and sidetone frequency.
The output will be one digitally optocoupled and a little amplified
loudspeaker. The device must be standalone in operation, without a
computer so probably a serial 16x2 LCD will provide feedback.

It needs to be tested by a skilled "brass pounder", that does not know
much of fpga and is 600km apart.

I don't want him to experience the wonderful parallel cable circus,
every time he discover something to be changed, that's the reason for
the USB programming.

I would like to have a twin system to remotely help him to update the
bitfile, thus the need of a cheap board, since I have to buy two.

I just have the basic stuff working, still need to add the LCD and the
encoders to let the user to set the WPM and so on and I doubt it will
fit in the 50k part.

Xula is really low price, small and give me most of what I want (except
maybe usb data transfer), and even DRAM.

Papilio, on the other side, has a serial port embedded into the USB but
lacks the DRAM (that I don't need) and is much bigger (250k is really
okay).

If Xula would be able to talk with a program using just the USB could be
the best fit, otherwise Papilio.

Any other contender?


Giuseppe Marullo

This seems like an ideal application for a microcontroller. NXP is
selling some little ARM M0 demo boards for $30US and ST is selling some
ARM M3 demo boards for $12US. The NXP uses GCC and Eclipse open source
tool chains and the ST board uses an IAR demo version. Both have
generous amounts of Flash memory for code and RAM. Both use USB for
programming and debugging.

'73
BobH
KE7FEF

 

[John Miles]

On Aug 28, 6:47 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
<giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com> wrote:

Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.

I need a very cheap board, so Papilio and/or Xula are best suited for
the task (2 x 175$ is too much, I could buy another Xylo-LM).

I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

The device is very simple, 2 digital input for the paddles and some user
interface to set the WPM speed, sensitivity and sidetone frequency.
The output will be one digitally optocoupled and a little amplified
loudspeaker. The device must be standalone in operation, without a
computer so probably a serial 16x2 LCD will provide feedback.

This isn't an appropriate FPGA application, unless your keyer needs to
work at 50,000,000 words per minute. Look into the Arduino family of
microcontroller boards, maybe?

-- john, KE5FX

 

[Rob Doyle]

On 8/28/2011 7:23 PM, John Miles wrote:

On Aug 28, 6:47 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com> wrote:
Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.

I need a very cheap board, so Papilio and/or Xula are best suited for
the task (2 x 175$ is too much, I could buy another Xylo-LM).

I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

The device is very simple, 2 digital input for the paddles and some user
interface to set the WPM speed, sensitivity and sidetone frequency.
The output will be one digitally optocoupled and a little amplified
loudspeaker. The device must be standalone in operation, without a
computer so probably a serial 16x2 LCD will provide feedback.

This isn't an appropriate FPGA application, unless your keyer needs to
work at 50,000,000 words per minute. Look into the Arduino family of
microcontroller boards, maybe?

-- john, KE5FX

Sorry John. I have to disagree here.

It might just be that an Arduino would be less expensive - maybe not -
but this is a perfect project for someone who is into Ham Radio and
wants to learn about FPGAs/CPLDS and/or HDLs.

The basic iambic keyer with dot and dash memories will fit in a Xilinx
XC9536XL which is $1.18. I don't think you can build an Arduino for
that price.

I actually used a Digilent Nexys2 board for my keyer. Then I added
a PS/2 keyboard interface so I could type. Then I added a split-screen
Color VGA display (128 x 64 characters). I use the display memory for
receive and transmit buffers. Someday I'll add the signal processing
for a tone decoder and then morse code decoder. Yes it is a little
weird to do this with a 50 MHz clock but then again the clock is PLL'd
to 108.33 MHz for the VGA pixel clock...

I use the Nexys2 board just because it is fast and easy (i.e., fun).
Later I'll build a circuit card.

.... it's better than a vending machine or a traffic light.

Rob. WA3TGF.

 

[Steve]

On 08/29/2011 12:23 AM, Giuseppe Marullo wrote:

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

Not Spartan 3 but Spartan 6:

http://www.sioi.com.au/shop/product_info.php/products_id/47

28.13 euros for a Spartan 6, 4Mb Flash, 32MB DDR SDRAM, 38 IO expansion
plus separate 6 IO expansion

You can program it with a JTAG cable that has the Xilinx 14 pin JTAG
connector.

Stephen

 

[Giuseppe Marullo]

Any other contender?

DLP Design have two modules, but IMO they're kind of expensive for what
you're getting:<http://www.dlpdesign.com/fpga/

Yes, expensive compared to Xula and/or Papilio, I did know about them,
nice product.

Avnet's Spartan-3A Evaluation Kit was cheap, but I'm not sure if it's
available anymore. Software support was also kind of iffy.
http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/aes_sp3a_eval400_avnet.htm

-a
I was not able to locate one either, and I would like a reasonable support.

This isn't an appropriate FPGA application, unless your keyer needs to
work at 50,000,000 words per minute. Look into the Arduino family of
microcontroller boards, maybe?

-- john, KE5FX

John, you are right, but I should have said that this is not a
commercial product, just a hw shell for a "virtual keyer".
Once the design would be proven ok, I could release under GPL /
openhardware and everyone would implement it as they please.

I already have a K42 from www.k1el.com that performs flawlessly at human
speeds (up to 60-100 WPM) but this is done for different reasons:

1) HST competitions
Look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUBGrO9Vs1k&feature=related

Probably your Arduino could have some problem with gals like these...

2) Learn Verilog and testbenches
I have a very basic knowledge of both (and sometimes you could see my
naif questions in this newsgroup)

3) Try to build a "absolute precision" keyer, sometimes a pic or arduino
seems not perfect. I want the maximum precision available in terms of
uniformity of response and timing accuracy

4) wet my feet for building a standaline CW decoder, that seems so rare
animal this days.

If I wanted a fast MCU, I would have just used a Isopod that would have
done a very fast keyer without hassles in minutes using IsoMax/Forth.

This seems like an ideal application for a microcontroller. NXP is
selling some little ARM M0 demo boards for $30US and ST is selling
some ARM M3 demo boards for $12US. The NXP uses GCC and Eclipse open
source tool chains and the ST board uses an IAR demo version. Both
have generous amounts of Flash memory for code and RAM. Both use USB
for programming and debugging.

I wanted it to be a cheap FPGA project, so a MCU is not an option anyway.
I have a LPC2138 and I got sick trying to put RTOS on it, my FPGA board
does have it side by side of a Spartan 3E 500 and would be a very
powerful combination.
I regularly lose myself in the quirk of Eclipse/ZC something plugin for
debugging, makefiles and so on.

It might just be that an Arduino would be less expensive - maybe not -
but this is a perfect project for someone who is into Ham Radio and
wants to learn about FPGAs/CPLDS and/or HDLs.
Rob. WA3TGF.

Bingo! Maybe I didn't say it explicitly but this is the reason, plus the
fact that a FPGA is way more "realtime" than a MCU.
I would like to talk with you offlist, please contact me at
giuseppe.marullo @ nospam.iname.com (remove nospam.)

Great info, great people here (as always)!

Giuseppe Marullo
IW2JWW - JN45RQ

 

Giuseppe Marullo <giuseppe.marullonospam@iname.com> wrote:

Any other contender?

DLP Design have two modules, but IMO they're kind of expensive for what
you're getting: <http://www.dlpdesign.com/fpga/>

Avnet's Spartan-3A Evaluation Kit was cheap, but I'm not sure if it's
available anymore. Software support was also kind of iffy.
<http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards-and-kits/aes_sp3a_eval400_avnet.htm>

-a

 

[Gabor]

Steve wrote:

On 08/29/2011 12:23 AM, Giuseppe Marullo wrote:
Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

Not Spartan 3 but Spartan 6:

http://www.sioi.com.au/shop/product_info.php/products_id/47

28.13 euros for a Spartan 6, 4Mb Flash, 32MB DDR SDRAM, 38 IO expansion
plus separate 6 IO expansion

You can program it with a JTAG cable that has the Xilinx 14 pin JTAG
connector.

Stephen

Another spartan 6 possibility with the USB built-in:

http://www.em.avnet.com/ctf_shared/evk/df2df2usa/xlx-s6-lx9-microboard-pb040811.pdf

$89.00 US at Avnet.

I'm not sure if the 2 PMOD connectors have enough I/O for you, though.

-- Gabor

 

[John Miles]

On Aug 29, 12:08 am, Rob Doyle <radioe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/28/2011 7:23 PM, John Miles wrote:









On Aug 28, 6:47 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com>  wrote:
Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.

I need a very cheap board, so Papilio and/or Xula are best suited for
the task (2 x 175$ is too much, I could buy another Xylo-LM).

I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

The device is very simple, 2 digital input for the paddles and some user
interface to set the WPM speed, sensitivity and sidetone frequency.
The output will be one digitally optocoupled and a little amplified
loudspeaker. The device must be standalone in operation, without a
computer so probably a serial 16x2 LCD will provide feedback.

This isn't an appropriate FPGA application, unless your keyer needs to
work at 50,000,000 words per minute.  Look into the Arduino family of
microcontroller boards, maybe?

-- john, KE5FX

Sorry John.  I have to disagree here.

It might just be that an Arduino would be less expensive - maybe not -
but this is a perfect project for someone who is into Ham Radio and
wants to learn about FPGAs/CPLDS and/or HDLs.

I don't disagree there, but...

The basic iambic keyer with dot and dash memories will fit in a Xilinx
XC9536XL which is $1.18.  I don't think you can build an Arduino for
that price.

.... he started out asking for a Spartan3 board, which is a bit much if
he wants to build a keyer and be done with it. He didn't mention that
he wanted to learn about FPGA development, but he *did* mention that
he had a tight budget, so... horses for courses.

I actually used a Digilent Nexys2 board for my keyer.  Then I added
a PS/2 keyboard interface so I could type.  Then I added a split-screen
Color VGA display (128 x 64 characters).  I use the display memory for
receive and transmit buffers.  Someday I'll add the signal processing
for a tone decoder and then morse code decoder.  Yes it is a little
weird to do this with a 50 MHz clock but then again the clock is PLL'd
to 108.33 MHz for the VGA pixel clock...

I use the Nexys2 board just because it is fast and easy (i.e., fun).
Later I'll build a circuit card.

... it's better than a vending machine or a traffic light.

Rob.  WA3TGF.

Yep, Nexys2s are great boards. Good for climbing the USB learning
curve as well as coming up to speed on FPGAs. Very well documented,
and very inexpensive considering what you get...

-- john, KE5FX

 

[Markus Freund]

Hi,

maybe you'll find something here: http://www.trenz-electronic.de

markus

Am 28.08.2011 16:23, schrieb Giuseppe Marullo:

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

 

[Markus Freund]

Hi,

maybe you'll find something here: http://www.trenz-electronic.de The
Industrial Micromodules made by Trenz are programmable via USB and kinda
cheap.

markus

Am 28.08.2011 16:23, schrieb Giuseppe Marullo:

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

 

[John Adair]

Have a look at our Polmaddie3 http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/polmaddie/polmaddie3.html.
If you really want to cut costs this board has an option to drive the
JTAG chain as a bit bash from the on-board FT232 chip that also forms
a serial port connection. As yet we don't have formal support for this
feature but we do of a customer that has used it successfully in
another of products with the same feature.

This cheap JTAG connection will need the fit of resistor array, or
solder bridges, and the work of getting the bit bash to work.
Otherwise we do have our own ISE compatible USB programming cable.

Price for this board with parallel port cable GBP Ł40 / USD $68 + VAT
(if applys) or with USB programming cable option GBP Ł90 / USD $153.

We also have a another not widely known product Prog4 that has a FT245
front end but can not support the bit-bash JTAG at a similar price
point. It's main use is as a programming cable for our Altera based
products but we also sell it as a development board. It has slightly
less I/O but is physically smaller. Like the Polmaddie3 it has a
XC3S50AN FPGA. Details of Prog4 http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/programming_solutions/prog4.html.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Aug 28, 3:23 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
<giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com> wrote:

Hi,
I would like to know which is the smallest (read cheapest) board with a
Spartan3 that can be programmed directly by a usb cable.

I just need a couple to test a design that must be operated remotely and
in the need of a change in the fpga I would not bother the other party
with much software/hardware issues.

Budget is very tight, there are no many requirements for the board
itself, a bunch of I/O (less than 20) and I would need to add a serial
LCD, a couple of quad encoders and some buttons.

Serial port and/or USB data exchange at plus.

Ideally, I use a Xylo-LM that has a very easy programming method, sadly
way overbudget.

TIA.

Giuseppe Marullo

 

[Jim Granville]

On Aug 29, 1:47 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
<giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com> wrote:

Thanks to all for your answers, really good advices.
I need to build a "high speed" HST IAMBIC keyer.

If you want USB and cheap, then the Lattice offerings are hard to go
past.

They have 2 candidates:

$30- called 'Breakout', but includes a FT2232H for ISP.
http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/breakoutboardevalkits.cfm?source=topnav

and also $29, with a small LCD, and FT2232H connected for UART on the
second channel (JTAG Pgm on the other)

http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/developmentkits/machxo2picokit.cfm?source=banner

or, there are Micro boards, this one even has a small speaker.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_images/XMEGA_A1_xplained_th.jpg

 

[Giuseppe Marullo]

Not Spartan 3 but Spartan 6:

http://www.sioi.com.au/shop/product_info.php/products_id/47

28.13 euros for a Spartan 6, 4Mb Flash, 32MB DDR SDRAM, 38 IO
expansion plus separate 6 IO expansion

You can program it with a JTAG cable that has the Xilinx 14 pin JTAG
connector.

Stephen

Stephen,
very aggressive price but I don't want the other ham to play with
parallel cables. I don't even own a USB programmer cable myself.

My Xylo-LM can be programmed by the FX2 USB chip, I did purchase the
el-cheapo parallel cable (I have a old digilent board with Sump LA
analyzer on it) and another Xilinx/Altera compatible one from KNJN but
it is a PITA on today's computers, parallel port is simply dead.

I have somewhat high end laptop (x7200) and there is no pcmcia or
parallel port.

Antoher (usual) problem is the esoteric I/O connector, otherwise it
could be a good fit.

If you want USB and cheap, then the Lattice offerings are hard to go
past.

Jim, I have so much to learn with Xilinx I can't afford to switch
vendor...at least I know how to create a bitfile and do a very basic
simulation with WebISE.

Have a look at our Polmaddie3
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/polmaddie>>>/polmaddie3.html.

John, this one does not have programming capabilities from USB, which I
would like.
The Prog4 could work but I need a ready to run board, I would like
something working without much fiddling/thinkering, not only for me but
specially for my friend.

He is a fine brass pounder with his Vibroplex but I am pretty sure not
much tolerant with the quirks of bitfile programming webise/impact and
cables.
I fear that at the first problem he would ship the board back to me, so
it is really hit/miss situation.

Another spartan 6 possibility with the USB built-in:

http://www.em.avnet.com/ctf_shared/evk/df2df2usa/xlx-s6-lx9-microboard-pb040811.pdf


$89.00 US at Avnet.

I'm not sure if the 2 PMOD connectors have enough I/O for you, though.

-- Gabor

Gabor,
they should suffice:

2 input for the paddles

3 x 2 input for 3 quad encoders (maximum)

2 x CW output (one is the Keyout for the radio and the other is the Tone)

1 x Serial LCD output

This board is 89EUR from Trenz (that has a lot of interesting stuff,
sadly not cheap for my needs (micromodules) or lacks USB programming
(OHO Elektronik), and there is a discount if purchased during AVNet
presentation seminars.

Yes, I have enrolled in one (end of November in Milan). Maybe I could
buy two at discounted rate and my problems will be solved while I
progress in the development.

It has a device-locked SDK license and ChipScope (much more that I could
expect).
The only thing I need to understand is if I could use it to try also the
Microblaze (NOT FOR THIS PROJECT!).

Giuseppe Marullo

 

[Jim Granville]

On Aug 30, 12:26 pm, Giuseppe Marullo
<giuseppe.marullonos...@iname.com> wrote:

 >If you want USB and cheap, then the Lattice offerings are hard to go
 >past.

Jim, I have so much to learn with Xilinx I can't afford to switch
vendor...at least I know how to create a bitfile and do a very basic
simulation with WebISE.

It is not that hard to flip across vendor's tools ?

The two Lattice choices I gave have different tool flows, and I'd
suggest the Breakout 4256ZE : less overall logic, but the IspLEVER
tools give better reports, and run faster from my brief tests.
IspLever is a little more cumbersome on the install.

-jg