Verison DSL problem.

G

George Francis

Guest
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
 
"George Francis" <w3ase@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
Does the modem have a setup page you can browse to? If so check that it is
actually locked up and has plenty of signal, also check your
username/password are correct.

Ken
 
In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck
<jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/
Call your state Corporation Commission (or whatever it's called in
your state) and complain. They'll probably tell you that ISPs are
unregulated. Then ask them why not. In general raise hell and then
call your legislator.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
James Beck wrote:
In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data service.
This is true. On the other hand, state regulators also impose quality of
service requirements on telcos. If they (Verizon) have filed a tariff
covering their DSL service, there might be some language that covers
this.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.
At this time, VOIP and many other telephone-like services are not
covered by state and federal regulations to the degree POTS is. This
includes cellular services.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want telephone-like reliability
from your internet or wireless providers, be prepared to accept some
level of regulation along with it. Given the skill gained with many
decades of experience in manipulating federal regulations to suit their
needs, any attempt to bring the government into the picture will be done
so in such a manner as to ensure the protection of the current telcos'
market positions.

Personally, I'd like to see broadband access moved into a class of
service similar to telephone service. That is: guaranteed service
quality, universal access and separation of the higher level service and
content providers from the basic connectivity. But the down side will be
that we will get the equivalent of long distance charges for IP packets
and layers of additional taxes and surcharges.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.
- Bart Simpson
 
Hi George,

It seems the modem can't sync properly but tries. Did someone accidentally
plug in a phone without one of those DSL filters in line? That can muffle
the carrier amplitude so badly that it ain't quite enough anymore.

I had that happen and it took me 1/2 hour of crawling around to find which
one it was because the plugs are behind cabinets. Which have to be
partially unloaded to move them...

You can also listen to the noise from the line with a communications
receiver, most of it is below 200KHz, plus harmonics of course. This noise
pattern changes when the modem comes on and then at least you get an
indication of whether it transmits something back. Amplitudes can be
checked as well via a coupler (not directly since there is up to 90V on
phone lines). I forgot the levels that need to be there but had found them
somewhere on the web when my "Ready" light kept blinking.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
On 27 May 2004 10:32:20 -0700, George Francis wrote:

Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
Yes switch to Comcast. Verizon sucks.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/
I'm sure Verizon's DSL sevice contract is just like Ameritech's (now
SBC,) They didn't guarantee anything. They didn't even guarantee
that you could get connected at all.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:58:34 -0400, Activ8 wrote:

On 27 May 2004 10:32:20 -0700, George Francis wrote:

Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George

Yes switch to Comcast. Verizon sucks.
And check out the data rate per dollar difference. IME DSL isn't as
good a deal.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
"George Francis" <w3ase@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
I was talking to Verizon tech support once and she had me turn
everything off and unplug everything, and leave it off (specifically
the modem) for more than 2 minutes, or something like that. Presumably
it takes that long for some cap to fully discharge so it gets a good
clean reset.

Then:
1. Power up the modem, wait for power led.
2. Plug modem into phone line, wait for led to go steady
3. Power up computer, for a clean reboot,
4. Plug computer into modem
5. If it doesn't come up ("Local Area Connection" balloon by taskbar),
then uninstall and reinstall LAN driver.

I think by this time everything was working.

I have the distinct impression that the thing that makes the difference
is the time that the modem's unplugged from everything - the longer the
better.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
"Activ8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:yxyg3as1s29.dlg@news.individual.net...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/

I'm sure Verizon's DSL sevice contract is just like Ameritech's (now
SBC,) They didn't guarantee anything. They didn't even guarantee
that you could get connected at all.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
My DSL connection here in NZ is like that - the terms and conditions make it
clear they dont have to provide any service at all. I asked a service
manager if that meant they could provide me with no connection for a month
and still expect me to pay - the result was an embarassed silence. Xtra has
problems with newsgroups too, which is really annoying - my IP address is
randomly allocated every time I log on, and when Xtra create new IP
addresses it takes them 3 days (?!) to put the new IPs into the news server.
So I get random "permission denied" errors when I try to access newsgroups.
After a fair bit of complaining (I was real unimpressed to be told I had to
uninstall norton internet security before they would let me speak to a tech)
I finally found out the aforementioned issue (of which Xtra was unaware).
Today I had to log in 5 times to get access to newsgroups (aaargh!). OTOH an
ear-bashing just got me a $120 refund, so 10mins well spent. Wankers.

Cheers
Terry
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:09:49 +1200, Terry Given wrote:

"Activ8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:yxyg3as1s29.dlg@news.individual.net...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/

I'm sure Verizon's DSL sevice contract is just like Ameritech's (now
SBC,) They didn't guarantee anything. They didn't even guarantee
that you could get connected at all.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

My DSL connection here in NZ is like that - the terms and conditions make it
clear they dont have to provide any service at all. I asked a service
manager if that meant they could provide me with no connection for a month
and still expect me to pay - the result was an embarassed silence. Xtra has
problems with newsgroups too, which is really annoying - my IP address is
randomly allocated every time I log on, and when Xtra create new IP
addresses it takes them 3 days (?!) to put the new IPs into the news server.
So I get random "permission denied" errors when I try to access newsgroups.
After a fair bit of complaining (I was real unimpressed to be told I had to
uninstall norton internet security before they would let me speak to a tech)
I finally found out the aforementioned issue (of which Xtra was unaware).
Today I had to log in 5 times to get access to newsgroups (aaargh!). OTOH an
ear-bashing just got me a $120 refund, so 10mins well spent. Wankers.

Cheers
Terry
$120 for 10 min *plus* all the downtime and frustration. Wankers
indeed!

www.individual.net

go there, now. You can thank me later. You won't get ABSE there,
however, but it's a freebie.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:09:49 +1200, Terry Given wrote:

"Activ8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:yxyg3as1s29.dlg@news.individual.net...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/

I'm sure Verizon's DSL sevice contract is just like Ameritech's (now
SBC,) They didn't guarantee anything. They didn't even guarantee
that you could get connected at all.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

My DSL connection here in NZ is like that - the terms and conditions make it
clear they dont have to provide any service at all. I asked a service
manager if that meant they could provide me with no connection for a month
and still expect me to pay - the result was an embarassed silence. Xtra has
problems with newsgroups too, which is really annoying - my IP address is
randomly allocated every time I log on, and when Xtra create new IP
addresses it takes them 3 days (?!) to put the new IPs into the news server.
So I get random "permission denied" errors when I try to access newsgroups.
After a fair bit of complaining (I was real unimpressed to be told I had to
uninstall norton internet security before they would let me speak to a tech)
I finally found out the aforementioned issue (of which Xtra was unaware).
Today I had to log in 5 times to get access to newsgroups (aaargh!). OTOH an
ear-bashing just got me a $120 refund, so 10mins well spent. Wankers.

Cheers
Terry
And BTW, I figger that telcos are so used to being a neccessary
utility that they don't GAF. OTHO MSOs (CATV Cos) have had such a
hard time pleasing customers that they're more likely to GAF. Plus
MSOs have the broadband advatage, IMO, whereas telcos had to go
through the R&D of trying to shove megabits through (now up to maybe
20,000 ft) of copper (sucking water), and sometimes can't even
provide service if there's a buck boost can in the line. Some
consider DSL to still be in the teething stage - a new tech. I see
broadband as a more mature technology. It just hasn't been available
for as long because the MSOs had to spent majog $ getting their
plant up to spec. Telcos are sending DSL over the same old shit
that's been in the air for decades.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
w3ase@comcast.net (George Francis) wrote in message news:<9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George
All:

MANY THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS. I DIDN'T EXPECT SUCH A WIDE RESPONSE
BUT APPRECIATE ALL OF THEM . AT LEAST NOW I HAVE SOMETHING TO CHECK
ON. REGARDS, GEORGE.
 
On a sunny day (Fri, 28 May 2004 18:09:49 +1200) it happened "Terry Given"
<the_domes@xtra.co.nz> wrote in <VJAtc.11177$XI4.400402@news.xtra.co.nz>:

"Activ8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:yxyg3as1s29.dlg@news.individual.net...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:45:45 GMT, James Beck wrote:

In article <9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com>,
w3ase@comcast.net says...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George


Maybe this.......?

Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 09:18:04 -0400
From: David Farber <dave@farber.net
Subject: So what's new with Pittsburgh Verizon DSL [IP]

Nothing. As of 0830 this am, access to some (maybe a large number) of
Pittsburgh Verizon DSL customers has been down for 34 hours. When I
called
them I asked whether such service outages are appropriate for a
communications company. After all there would be a major headline event
if
the telephone service was out that long due to human error. I was told
that
"after all, there is a federal requirement on telephone service not on
data
service.

I wonder what will happen as VOIP gets larger and outages like this take
place.

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-
people/

I'm sure Verizon's DSL sevice contract is just like Ameritech's (now
SBC,) They didn't guarantee anything. They didn't even guarantee
that you could get connected at all.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

My DSL connection here in NZ is like that - the terms and conditions make it
clear they dont have to provide any service at all. I asked a service
manager if that meant they could provide me with no connection for a month
and still expect me to pay - the result was an embarassed silence. Xtra has
problems with newsgroups too, which is really annoying - my IP address is
randomly allocated every time I log on, and when Xtra create new IP
addresses it takes them 3 days (?!) to put the new IPs into the news server.
So I get random "permission denied" errors when I try to access newsgroups.
After a fair bit of complaining (I was real unimpressed to be told I had to
uninstall norton internet security before they would let me speak to a tech)
I finally found out the aforementioned issue (of which Xtra was unaware).
Today I had to log in 5 times to get access to newsgroups (aaargh!). OTOH an
ear-bashing just got me a $120 refund, so 10mins well spent. Wankers.

Cheers
Terry
Here we are much much better of, the telco here provides me with internet
ADSL access, without email, or servers, but with the Alcatel SpeedTouch modem,
it is a complete firewall, you can use you web browser to connect to it,
(ethernet) and open ports, set routes, select systems, etc.
For example for VOP I opened some ports.
It logs the connections and 1 drop in the last 90 days but that could have been
me and the power switch (only a 3 second out, modem reports cold start, yes
was me, so no telco drop at all in 90 days).
As for free email, yahoo, netscape, even have free pop email somewhere, and
free newsservers (that allow postings) also exist (if you seriously search).
And I am running the web server, ftp server etc too via this thing.
And it works with MS widows and Linux, althoug they do not support Linux.
You can use them via an ISP too, but that is 100$ a year more expensive.
I do not want to be runing my own newsserver, that would eat far to much in
bandwidth allocation.
I have also ran speed tests on this DSL line, and it is indeed what they promised.
So, maybe time for .nz to write some letters and get it 100%? So you can
join the VOIP bandwagen too?
This modem router is French I think, Thompson Alcatel, and I am very
impressed with it.
JP
 
"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> wrote in message news:<qgxtc.18567$o97.2511@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"George Francis" <w3ase@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9b58ea86.0405270932.4d8e23cf@posting.google.com...
Hi All:

Does anyone know how to solve the problem when the DSL lamp on Verison
modem continues to flash. It is supposed to stay solid after 20 to 90
seconds....but continues to blink. I have tried about everything I
know and have asked for technical help but all I get is a review of
what I have already done. Everything is done as per their CD
installation instructions.....at this point I will suggest my daughter
switch to Comcast. Any suggestions will be most appreciated. George

I was talking to Verizon tech support once and she had me turn
everything off and unplug everything, and leave it off (specifically
the modem) for more than 2 minutes, or something like that. Presumably
it takes that long for some cap to fully discharge so it gets a good
clean reset.

Then:
1. Power up the modem, wait for power led.
2. Plug modem into phone line, wait for led to go steady
3. Power up computer, for a clean reboot,
4. Plug computer into modem
5. If it doesn't come up ("Local Area Connection" balloon by taskbar),
then uninstall and reinstall LAN driver.

I think by this time everything was working.

I have the distinct impression that the thing that makes the difference
is the time that the modem's unplugged from everything - the longer the
better.

Good Luck!
Rich
Thanks Rich. That could be the answer. I get the message in little
window on the lower right tray.....Local Area Network connection
unplugged.....the icon, which is hard to see with these old eyes has a
red X in the center. Thanks for the information......much
appreciated. George
 

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